[Merged]All religions are idiocy

Well, I think the exchange I've been having with DD does lack coherence. But I'm not sure it's all my fault. But I guess I'm not in a position to judge.

What I'm trying to get at, in my own messy way, is that it is legitimate and typical for human beings to have questions beyond what science can answer. Does the consciousness persist after death. Science can't answer this. We still don't really have a good understanding of exactly what consciousness is. We certainly have no way to determine what happens to it after we die.

We can make statements of faith such as "it ceases to exist," "it merges with the universe" or "it goes to heaven." However, none of these propositions can be tested. We may choose one option over another based on various axioms, but that is it.

Similarly, people choose to work together or enter into conflict based upon their expectations and beliefs. It is not a wholly rational process and things like religious beliefs play a major role here...as do cultural biases, rational market choices and historical experience. To look at this process and conclude the religious beliefs are primarily harmful is a bold statement that should be backed up by analysis. Certainly folks like Weber have shown that it has a powerful norming effect which, like nationalism, can get large groups of people to work together towards shared goals.

Hope this seemed somewhat less pointless...but like I said, I am in no position to judge.

I think the idea of asking the question is legitimate, but perhaps expecting an answer in the face of inadequate if not contrary evidence, is hoping for too much, and in DD's view, idiotic.

Science cannot yet fully explain consciousness, but I am willing to wager that it is further along the road than you suspect. Try reading Daniel Dennett if you are curious.

Asking whether the world would be better without religion is definitely a case of 'could have done otherwise'. My view is that perhaps it was once useful, but we now know better. The problem with religion is that it can be summoned up to support almost any idea, and that makes it at least irrational in practice, and particularly dangerous now that we have so much technology that does not allow for afterthoughts.
Religious rituals and ideas always have some practical basis relevant to the time, but technology means that so many are now fossils. As a (trivial) example, strong family ties guaranteeing care in old age, have largely been replaced by pensions and insurance.
 
Has religion provided ANY reliable answers about the universe or life or ANYTHING?

Religions in general have, historically, provided strong systems of social cohesion and were probably quite instrumental in the initial formation of large societies. Many religions have contributed some worthwhile ethical systems [one simple example would be the whole "do unto others" bit] and Eastern religions have provided some robust philosophies and meditative practices.
 
If not answers, useful guidance towards answers...

Has religion provided ANY reliable answers about the universe or life or ANYTHING?

I have yet to see an example of this.

I'm not a christian, but I'm going to use christian references because I'm lazy (they are readily available).

Do you honestly not see anything of value in the following piece of teaching?

One day an expert on Moses' laws came to test Jesus' orthodoxy by asking him this question: "Teacher, what does a man need to do to live forever in heaven?" Jesus replied, "What does Moses' law say about it?" "It says," he replied, "that you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind. And you must love your neighbor just as much as you love yourself." "Right!" Jesus told him. "Do this and you shall live!" The man wanted to justify (his lack of love for some kinds of people), so he asked, "Which neighbors?" Jesus replied with an illustration: "A Jew going on a trip from Jerusalem to Jericho was attacked by bandits. They stripped him of his clothes and money, and beat him up and left him lying half dead beside the road. "By chance a Jewish priest came along; and when he saw the man lying there, he crossed to the other side of the road and passed him by. A Jewish Temple-assistant walked over and looked at him lying there, but then went on. "But a despised Samaritan came along, and when he saw him, he felt deep pity. Kneeling beside him the Samaritan soothed his wounds with medicine and bandaged them. Then he put the man on his donkey and walked along beside him till they came to an inn, where he nursed him through the night. The next day he handed the innkeeper two twenty-dollar bills and told him to take care of the man. 'If his bill runs higher than that,' he said, 'I'll pay the difference the next time I am here.' "Now which of these three would you say was a neighbor to the bandits' victim?" The man replied, "The one who showed him some pity." Then Jesus said, "Yes, now go and do the same." (TLB, Luke 10:25-37)

or this one:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. (NIV, Matthew 7:1-5)

Truly, you see no value here? Zero?
 
I'm not a christian, but I'm going to use christian references because I'm lazy (they are readily available).

Do you honestly not see anything of value in the following piece of teaching?


Truly, you see no value here? Zero?

I think thaiboxer has had some very negative experiences with fundamentalist fanatics and this trauma has caused him to project his frustrations on all religions in general -- regardless of the contributions of their practitioners.
 
Science cannot yet fully explain consciousness, but I am willing to wager that it is further along the road than you suspect. Try reading Daniel Dennett if you are curious.
I'll check it out. My research in the subject is dated. I think Penrose was the most recent book I read on the subject.

The problem with religion is that it can be summoned up to support almost any idea, and that makes it at least irrational in practice...
Across a group of individuals, certainly religion will be used to support just about any idea. That tells us more about the differences and tendencies of individuals than anything about religion. Take a look at the current state of economics...it is hard to believe all those guys are describing the same elephant, if you know what I mean.

As a (trivial) example, strong family ties guaranteeing care in old age, have largely been replaced by pensions and insurance.

I think this is a good example. Certainly, in the last 100 years we have made great strides towards providing better social safety nets. Many things that were traditionally the role of the family or the parish are now also assisted by the state. There are many people who, as a result, have more mobility and opportunity than they had before.

We have managed to get these benefits without consciously working to dismantle the parish and the family. Society came up with a better way and some adopted it and others did not.

That is the way I would encourage folks to handle religion. There is no reason to eliminate religion to provide an alternative any more than we had to eliminate the family to provide social safety nets.
 
What I meant by the mind influencing matter is that choices and perceptions physically change the configuration of matter [whether or not those perceptions are based on objective sensory data]. For instance if a person thinks of something distressing is causes physical changes in the body; when a person chooses to move, speak, or commit to any other physical activity they initiate changes in the material world around them.
Not all thoughts have an afferent or other physical response. There would be some evolved basis for those that do. Thoughts change the world through their resultant actions, but any change in the "configuration of matter" would be trivial and just a side effect of the process.


Meaning and purpose have no objective reality outside of the subjective experience -- they're examples of non-corporeal "things" -- they're the currency of the mind. I think a lot of human suffering comes from people thinking that they must look for some outside source to give them meaning and purpose when it is something that they must define and decide for themselves. Its not something to have dictated or handed to you by some authority.
There is no doubt that people look to religion for comfort. You are mortal. Every passing day erodes the finite time that you have. Why are you not "worried to death" at that prospect? You are to a degree, but not I imagine commensurate with the consequences. Your mind has evolved to let you "live with" that fact otherwise, you would be incapacitated.

I think a lot of the aversion to the term "spirit" in modern science is because it brings up connotations of the dualist arguments put forward over the centuries -- that mind/spirit/anima (or what ever term you like) is fundamentally different and separate from the body/matter. As I already mentioned, that age old debate is flawed because there is no duality. The whole spirit-vs-matter issue is just the silly nature-vs-nurture debate in another guise.

Yes, dualism is a fundamentally spiritual idea, and simply wrong.
So, I think general agreement save for the mind influencing matter bit?
 
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I'll check it out. My research in the subject is dated. I think Penrose was the most recent book I read on the subject.

Penrose is slightly woo. He has two books on this topic, and uses computational ideas to 'prove' that consciousness is not possible by this means. He proposes quantum mechanical ideas to explain the missing magic. (In the last book also acknowledges that computer consciousness is possible after all...)
Dennett has a more recent book ' Sweet Dreams' in which he tries to demolish the idea that 'the something extra' is missing or needed. His major book is the well known 'Consciousness Explained'.
 
Yes, dualism is a fundamentally spiritual idea, and simply wrong.
So, I think general agreement save for the mind influencing matter bit?

Agreed.

I think most of the difference between us on this subject is probably superficial.
 
Dude! :eye-poppi He has been answering you. Anglicanism is actually a religion, you know. Remember, you asked him to name one...and then he named one...and then you ignored him and told him to name one.

I could have sworn that anglicanism was a church based practice and was more to do with how the woo'ers interpreted their religion and that the religion they followed, was christianity. Whilst anglicans are christians in and of themselves, that doesn't make anglicanism a religion. IMO anyway. :)
 
I could have sworn that anglicanism was a church based practice and was more to do with how the woo'ers interpreted their religion and that the religion they followed, was christianity. Whilst anglicans are christians in and of themselves, that doesn't make anglicanism a religion. IMO anyway. :)

Its a'll just theological taxonomy.

Tedious business >.>
 
If a treatment could be found I would be for letting any inflicted receive such treatment for free. Hope that is clear enough.

What if after deciding for the benefits of rationality, the authorities put something in the water to rid the populace of religious thought? The following morning everybody is cured; but that would be chaos.
To avoid this fate, the authorities would first have to reorganise society to accommodate the new way of thinking.
Both are impossible, so the argument is moot.

What if you were the only rationalist. If you held consistently to this idea, you would probably find life quite intolerable. In my view, that would make you an idiot. Religious thinking is then the most practical point of view, which for the individual not currently feeling the downside of it, it probably is.
 
DanishDynamite said:
If a treatment could be found I would be for letting any inflicted receive such treatment for free. Hope that is clear enough.

So basically you would advocate brainwashing for people's own "good", eh? I think you and the fundamentalists have something in common...
 
Religions in general have, historically, provided strong systems of social cohesion and were probably quite instrumental in the initial formation of large societies. Many religions have contributed some worthwhile ethical systems [one simple example would be the whole "do unto others" bit] and Eastern religions have provided some robust philosophies and meditative practices.

So, no examples, I take it?
 
I think thaiboxer has had some very negative experiences with fundamentalist fanatics and this trauma has caused him to project his frustrations on all religions in general -- regardless of the contributions of their practitioners.

You could not be more wrong. I've never had negative experiences with fundies on a personal level.

I can acknowledge that religious people have contributed to the world, but I have yet to see an example that they did so BECAUSE of their religion, but despite of it.
 
Jesus was a secular kind of guy...

Nothing exclusively religious, no. There are some secular values instilled in the passages though.

You expressed that you felt religions offered nothing of value to their believers. I showed two examples of teachings that I think most people would feel would have value.

Now, you say that the teaching is secular and not exclusively religious. Well, certainly it relates to the temporal world and is thus "secular." I think you will find most of the Jesus teachings to be secular in that way.

So, are the only religious beliefs you have a problem with those that have no secular component?
 
Anglicanism as a "religion"

I could have sworn that anglicanism was a church based practice and was more to do with how the woo'ers interpreted their religion and that the religion they followed, was christianity. Whilst anglicans are christians in and of themselves, that doesn't make anglicanism a religion. IMO anyway. :)

Context is everything here. The discussion (which I wasn't a part of...I was interloping :)) revolved around taking a look at the beliefs and practices of a particular "religion" for various purposes.

In that context, you need to narrow it down to a specific set of liturgical principles. For the same reason, when you put religion on your dog tags you specify Catholic rather than Christian...to make sure the proper liturgical rites are administered if things go wrong.

I know, I know...I'm the guy who said "words have meanings and we should stick to them." But, when there are 4 or 5 common definitions, you do have to look at context to figure out what those meanings are.
 
Penrose is slightly woo.
Agreed. I brought him up to illustrate how behind I am in my reading. I don't know enough to be able to truly evaluate his ideas, but they seem to make some unwarranted assumption about what consciousness is.

I'm not saying he is wrong, but I am saying I wouldn't be shocked if he were wrong.

Brilliant physicist, though.
 

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