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This is the Government that You Want to Run Health-care?

Even if you get better quality, cheaper healthcare, for everyone? Even if rates of health are better, survivability of cancer is better, infant mortality is lower, poor people don't die because they can't access healthcare and people aren't bankrupted by their health needs? National health services provide better care, cheaper.

I honestly cannot understand how you can say that nationalised healthcare "is never a good idea" when the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. That's called dogmatism, and it's rightly frowned upon round here.

I'll ask the question that is always appropriate in the face of such rabid ideology - what would it take to change your mind?


Oh, come on, it won't be better for everyone; it will be better for the working poor, for the stricken, for the chronically diseased, for the most unproductive people in society.

Productive people with health insurance won't get anything new or better except lines and delays for a rationed service.

If nationalization is such a good idea why not nationalize grocery stores, oil companies, pet food distribution, car companies, brothels, pick any industry you can think of. I'm afraid your argument for socialized and centralized control of the economy is just so much dog poop.
 
Oh, come on, it won't be better for everyone; it will be better for the working poor, for the stricken, for the chronically diseased, for the most unproductive people in society.

Which part of costs less for everyone did you miss? Which part of that study I've linked you to that showed that we have better quality healthcare did you miss?

When you have a profit motive, there is an incentive to do things on the cheap (or not do them at all). The UK system us based on need and nothing else. You can spout lazy individualist rhetoric all day long, but the facts are in. Nationalised healthcare works.

Oh, and as an aside - I'm a PhD student and art history lecturer. I am not poor by any standards, but I certainly think I'm productive. $2,000 a month is my entire monthly disposable income. Please explain to me exactly how I would be better off under your magical free-market Utopia.

I'll point this out again: you are asking me to trade a system where the cost of my health never even flitters into my mind, and never will as long as I live, for one which covers a fraction of my total needs and costs my entire monthly wage bill.

Please, I'm serious. Explain how this would "better". You keep saying it would be, but you have yet to explain, in real terms, how the US system is better than the UK one.

Productive people with health insurance won't get anything new or better except lines and delays for a rationed service.
And $2,000 a month in their wage packets.

What do you mean by "rationed"? If I need a transplant or a freaking sticking plaster, I get them. There is no "rationing" except in the case of very expensive and marginally effective drugs.

If nationalization is such a good idea why not nationalize grocery stores, oil companies, pet food distribution, car companies, brothels, pick any industry you can think of. I'm afraid your argument for socialized and centralized control of the economy is just so much dog poop.
A whole 'nother thread, though I'm willing to explain to you in tedious detail the difference between a car and a life-saving heart transplant, should you need me to.
 
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Sigh. I thought we were talking to someone who was actually thinking about the subject. Now I realise this is just another clone of the Gnome.

Your ideology is condemning you to some serious disadvantages, Balrog.

And I'll just mention Abigail once more. What more would she have got had she been living in the USA? If she had been living in the USA, would she have been assured of the treatment that saved her life?

Rolfe.
 
Oh, come on, it won't be better for everyone; it will be better for the working poor, for the stricken, for the chronically diseased, for the most unproductive people in society.

<snip>
And you can look at yourself in the mirror after writing that sentence?
 
You know, it gets worse.

I was aware that in Britain we pay about 7-8% of GDP for our healthcare. Many say we should be paying more, maybe closer to 10%, when we compare to say France, but we get pretty good value. Can I mention Abigail once again? I was also aware that in the USA the figure was about 15%.

Now I had assumed that the 15% was the entire figure. I assumed it was so bloody astronomical because of the cream that the insurance companies (both health insurance and professional indemnity insurance) were skimming off.

Now I'm informed that no, the 15% is just what the Government pays from taxes to fund Medicare/Medicaid. The insurance (and private pay) spend is over and above that.

I'm boggling a lot here, guys.

How much of your GDP does your entire healthcare system consume, for the love of God? That is Medicare, Medicaid, all the insurance work and all the privately paid work (I assume Bill Gates just writes a cheque....), all the charity funded work, all the costs of the insurance companies (health and professional indemnity)???? It's the invoice that swallowed Saturn! Is there any way to find out?

Please, please tell me I've got this wrong somehow!

:hb:

Rolfe.
 
Oh, come on, it won't be better for everyone; it will be better for the working poor, for the stricken, for the chronically diseased, for the most unproductive people in society.

Productive people with health insurance won't get anything new or better except lines and delays for a rationed service.

If nationalization is such a good idea why not nationalize grocery stores, oil companies, pet food distribution, car companies, brothels, pick any industry you can think of. I'm afraid your argument for socialized and centralized control of the economy is just so much dog poop.


Heaven forbid that you should ever find yourself with a chronic disease.

"Productive people" with health insurance still don't necessarily get such a good deal from your system from all I hear. Exclusions, ceilings on cover, quite big excesses to pay, dependent relatives not necessarily covered and so on. I think most of them would be quite pleased to be rid of all that.

The relatively well-heeled can still take out insurance to go private if they want to. There's not a huge incentive I have to say, given the level of service the NHS provides, but the facility is there. And it's not that expensive - because the insurers know that they will never have to shell out for any emergency care, or even for serious complications arising from private treatment, which is all taken care of by the NHS.

Why not nationalise food? Because everybody has a roughly similar nutritional requrement. There is no benefit to be had in providing that nutrition centrally. Healthcare is almost unique in being a necessity where people's needs vary enormously, and can often vastly outstrip their ability to pay. When you find another situation fulfilling these criteria, we can talk about how universal provision would be a good idea. Just quit with the brothels nonsense.

Do you feel good about being so selfish? Do you never think, that could be me?

Rolfe.
 
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Competition produces winners and losers. It always has, it always will.
 
Do you feel good about being so selfish? Do you never think, that could be me?

If you want to personalize it. How much of your after tax labor do you give to others?

If it is anything less than that which leaves you with only necessities than you are selfish.
:boxedin:
 
Incentive. Are you aware of the concept?

Quite. It's the main reason insurance companies put so many barriers between customers and payments.

Given that in the UK consumers get more for less with its cooperative system, the incentives in a individual-payer system do not seem to benefit the consumer.
 
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Oh, come on, it won't be better for everyone; it will be better for the working poor, for the stricken, for the chronically diseased, for the most unproductive people in society.

Productive people with health insurance won't get anything new or better except lines and delays for a rationed service.

If nationalization is such a good idea why not nationalize grocery stores, oil companies, pet food distribution, car companies, brothels, pick any industry you can think of. I'm afraid your argument for socialized and centralized control of the economy is just so much dog poop.

So you are arguing that the US system is fine if you don't plan on having any chronic condition, and you are wealthy enough?

And if you are a productive member of society, who happens to develop a chronic illness, what then?

It is a good system for the productive members of society if they don't use the system. Except for paying large premiums. And paying more tax to supply inadequate medical care for the vulnerable than I pay to supply adequate medical care for everyone, including myself.


Firstly the NHS is not the only alternative to the US system, it just happens to be one that I know most about, and it also has the distinction of costing lesss than medicaid. Other systems might be superior, but they do cost more than medicaid.

The productive people in society would find a slight reduction in the amount of tax that is spent on healthcare, and this money also entitles them to healthcare. They could decide to cash in on the fact that they would now be able to access adequate universal healthcatre for themselves. This means that they could decide to reduce the insurance that they pay (maybe to zero) or they could raise the level of coverage that they get for the same money. They could decide that the state provides an adequate safety-net, and save the money, working on the principle that should they want private healthcare they will pay upfront for it, and that this will, on averagfe cost them less than if they were also having to pay insurance premiums, which also have to make a profit for the insurance company.


I suspect that you might indeed be getting a better deal with your pounds than I am with my dollars (that is, at this point - I would have argued otherwise a few decades ago) but I think it's too late to change the game here without a huge cascade of worse problems. And, as with the Ponzi scheme of Social Security, while one cannot escape the game, that doesn't mean I should help to make it worse.

And, yes, short sighted and foolish employers (particularly those involving unions) want to lower their costs by dumping medical costs onto the government - I would prefer to place it with the individual and let them make their own decisions. I am not smart enough to make everyone else's decisions for them; nor do I believe that any politicized bureaucracy can handle the job as well as the free market.

How much economic power does an individual have? How can disparate collections of individuals achieve the economies of scale that would be needed for a large general hospital? Because of this, large organisations are inevitable in healthcare, the only question is whether they are private, or state-run.

In the UK we do have the choice to go private, should we wish; it is just that we also have the choice to have healtchare that is free at the point of delivery.

ETA:

And from a purely selfish POV, I am getting an infinitely better deal with my tax pounds than you are with your tax dollars, as far as healthcare is concerned. I get access to state-healthcare, whilst you don't.

Of course the vulnerable also get a better deal from my tax-pounds than they dop from your tax-dollars.
 
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How can the free market reduce the cost of healthcare to make adequate cover affordable for someone on USD7/hour, without state intervention?

Jerome, I saw your answer to this post:

The current high costs are related to government interference. More government interference will not lower the costs.


We see the same circumstance with higher education. The more government interference with the market the higher the cost. Have we not seen dramatic increases in college education costs with the government intrusion into that market?

However you are missing the point of the question.

With universal healthcare, the costs don't need to be reduced implausibly, to provide coverage for the poor, as the state subsidises healthcare.

You are claiming that a truly free-market system would be so cheap that everyone could afford healthcare (without subsidy).

I am asking how cheap this would need to be.

How much could someone USD7/hr be expected to afford to pay for healthcare?

1) as a one-off cost?
2) as an annual expendature?

Once we have some figures, we can then discuss how the free-market could reduce the cost of healthcare sufficiently to provide cover.

Of course it is valid to say that if the poor can't afford healthcare, and can't get charity, then they should be allowed to die. However, that is repugnant to me. You are not claiming that, but that the free market pixies* will make everything alright. This does seem to be Balrog's view however.



*thanks quixotecoyote
 
Interesting anecdote. Apparently the dentistry is not FREE based on moms teeth.


Is that all you have to say about the case? How illuminating.

The picture onscreen isn't sufficient for me to conclude anything about the mother's dental health, other than that she probably has not had cosmetic dentistry.

Very few people in Britain bother to have cosmetic dentistry - even the actors! It's a cultural thing. It's true that even on the NHS, some payment is required for dental care. And that some areas of the country have had problems sourcing enough NHS dentists as too many dentists have chosen to work privately as they can earn more than in the NHS.

However, Lenzie is not one of these areas. And even if it was, look at the parents' backgrounds! The father is an architect and the mother a school teacher. It is probable that this family wouldn't think twice about accessing private dental care. To suggest that poverty has led the mother to neglect her dental health is ridiculous. As I said, all I can conclude from that photograph is that she has not chosen to have cosmetic dentistry in the style of US film stars.

And this raises an observation I've often made when watching Merikans on TV. The film stars and those in the public life nearly all seem to have had major cosmetic dentistry done. Get on the wrong side of some of these smiles and you could go blind! But on the other side of the coin, those in lower socio-economic groups frequently demonstrate missing teeth and obvious caries and frankly, yuk! Here, that is seen much less frequently, and most people have decent dental health although not Cary Grant grins.

Now, about Abigail. While I'm confident that Mr. and Mrs. Hall can easily afford all the dental work they desire, I'm less confident that they could have afforded the cardiac care their daughter received. Would you like to answer my original questions?

If that case had occurred in the US, is there any more care she could have received that she was denied by the "substandard" NHS? If she had lived in the US, would she have been guaranteed that level of care no matter who she was or what her parents earned?

Rolfe.
 
If you want to personalize it. How much of your after tax labor do you give to others?

If it is anything less than that which leaves you with only necessities than you are selfish.
:boxedin:


Now that's a pertinent point. We have a responsibility to others. And, arguably, we should give until nobody else is in a poorer situation than we are ourselves. Not many people do that however, and most who do have deep religious faith.

You may have noticed earlier that I said one of the great things about universal healthcare is that I never have to worry about whether I, or my family, or my neighbours can afford the healthcare they need. I said that deliberately, because it's relevant.

To see a neighbour or a friend facing bankruptcy because of necessary healthcare costs would be a very hard thing for me. To know that a neighbour or a friend might die because there was no way they could access the healthcare they needed, ditto.

Not having to face that possibility is one more reason I'm every day more and more thankful for the NHS.

Rolfe.
 
The GDP does not belong to the people as a whole. This is your confusion.
:mgduh


I'm not confused, sunshine, I was looking for an easily-grasped way to compare total spend on healthcare between our countries, given their disparate size.

Take any way of measuring it you want. You are paying more and getting less.

Rolfe.
 
How much of your labor is taken by government to be redistributed?

What percentage of your labor should be taken by government to be redistributed?


Stop changing the subject. But if you want to use that terminology....

I was marvelling about how much of the US population's labour is being taken by the government to fund Medicare/Medicaid, which the very people who are paying the taxes to support it, cannot access.

I take it you're happy having substantially more of your labour taken to support your substandard safety-net systems from which you derive no personal benefit, than I have taken of my labour to fund a universal system that is so comprehensive that few people bother to top-up with insurance even though there is no barrier to them doing so?

Rolfe.
 

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