[Merged]All religions are idiocy

As I said, "supernatural" is a subjective point of view -- it is a relative term. If a phenomenon is beyond our current explanatory framework or understanding it would be "supernatural" to us. Or, if that particular term causes you to break out in hives, you could use Dawkin's neologism -- "perinormal".
Sorry, you'll need to get a bit more specific. There are many repeatable phenomena which require explanation at this time. Hence the investment in CERN and similar. None of these are phenomena are considered supernatural, however.
Being that it's obvious that reality [even the portions that we know of] is not completely understood, and it is impossible to fully grasp its infinite workings, its a state of fact that existence itself is "supernatural".
Wht might you think that the part I bolded was in any way the case?
 
What would be of relevance? Don't you like being disagreed with mate? if you start a thread like this you should be ready to come across some one like my self!

Now I understand that your an athiest like most people here, BUT why try starting a thread off by saying any one like myself is an idiot for believing in God then go and try to deny what you said then try saying unless the other person should go get something relevant to say or bugger off unless they live in a cave some where.

OK enlighten me oh grand exhaulted athiest please put me back into my "idiotic" place then, or untill then why don't you find some thing of relevance to say YOURSELF, then accept the fact that not all religious people are idiots.

Based upon what DD said at the very start of this thread DLX:

It boggles my mind that anyone could believe in any religion anywhere.
Could a believer please explain why and what he/she believes in?


and the fact that you appear to be a believer, maybe you could answer the why part of his question?

Nobody ever seems to answer that one, no matter how many times it is asked.
 
Based upon what DD said at the very start of this thread DLX:




and the fact that you appear to be a believer, maybe you could answer the why part of his question?

Nobody ever seems to answer that one, no matter how many times it is asked.

Well I believe in God because to me I just don't see how all of the universe could come to be from the big bang without some sort of intelligent design, but I am the first to admit I very well could be wrong in my beliefs.
 
The best thing would be if no such illness existed. But, yes, if it is an illness, it would be very good to so determine as therapy methods could then be looked for more easily.

No doubt. As I said previously there is evidence that a "god" center exists in the brain.

Why would you think so?

A convincing explanation would be a long one. One reason that we are susceptible to religious thinking is the way that we infer cause from effect.
Just as we have an innate 'folk physics', we have a folk reasoning.

The specific connection to the placebo effect is that only taste and smell are connected to the hypothalamus, a much older part of the brain. For example, memories associated with taste and smell can last a lifetime, where most visual memories are soon lost.
There is a tendency in children to associate food as being good for them, and this extends to a sort of naive vitalism, that is, they assume that vital power or life force taken from food and water makes humans active, prevents them from being taken ill, and enables them to grow. If true, then the placebo effect would be expected as an inbuilt consequence.

You rightly extol science's achievements, but it is not done by the mind alone.
The scientific method is a tool or prosthetic device that removes as much as possible of our native thinking. Without it, we revert to the native state.

So, your reasoned adherence to atheism (as is mine) is both ours and the external mental prosthetic devices and libraries of stored information.

Occasionally, some religious minds are converted, and they often ( if not always) speak of the freedom and clarity of thought that it brings. Perhaps then, you may consider it fortunate that you are one of the lucky minority, rather than thinking of the remainder as being idiots ?
 
So, to summarise your argument, you're saying that because of your belief which you can't prove by the scientific method, religious people are idiots for having beliefs which they can't prove by the scientific method. I guess there's no refuting that one :).
No.

The scientific method has demonstrated that it is the most reliable way of obtaining knowledge about how our Universe works. The fact that we are discussing the current topic on our computers, worlds apart, is evidence enough.

So, the scientific method shows what is true and what is not in our world. It shows, for example, that the age of the Earth is at least 4 billion years and not 4000 years as some inane religion proclaims. It shows that our very species evolved from previous lifeforms, lifeforms which by the way have existed since almost the beginning of the Earth. It shows why stars are not "lights on glass spheres" and that the Earth is not the center of the Universe and that things do fall at the same rate, no matter their mass, despite what the Pope says. It shows, once again, how to reliably obtain information about the workings of our Universe.

Religion has not provided a reliable answer regarding anything since it was invented. And every answer it has suggested has been shown to be wrong. By science.

Hence, anyone thinking that any religion anywhere can provide answers to anything at all, is an idiot.
 
AkuManiMani said:
As I said, "supernatural" is a subjective point of view -- it is a relative term. If a phenomenon is beyond our current explanatory framework or understanding it would be "supernatural" to us. Or, if that particular term causes you to break out in hives, you could use Dawkin's neologism -- "perinormal".

Sorry, you'll need to get a bit more specific. There are many repeatable phenomena which require explanation at this time. Hence the investment in CERN and similar. None of these are phenomena are considered supernatural, however.

The phenomenon that CERN or the LHC are seeking to investigate are things predicted within our current theoretical framework. In other words, they are testing implications and hypotheses that arise from our current theories. Depending on what new data they collect then their empirical observations could be considered, to greater or lesser extents, to be "perinomal". For instance, say if the LHC uncovers phenomenon that is very far removed from anything predicted by any known theory then the observed phenomenon could be considered perinormal until our theoretical framework can be updated to account for them.

AkuManiMani said:
Being that it's obvious that reality [even the portions that we know of] is not completely understood, and it is impossible to fully grasp its infinite workings, its a state of fact that existence itself is "supernatural"


Wh[y] might you think that the part I bolded was in any way the case?

Since I've already explained the reasons for this in the past and I do not feel like typing my arguments all over again please excuse me as I copy+paste in reply:

AkuManiMani said:
Having a "Theory of Everything" implies that there is a fundamental scale of measurement upon which to base it. This is logically impossible because there must always be a deeper fundament upon which to base such a theory. The most theoretical physicists will be able to achieve is a "Theory of Just About Everything we Observe Currently".

Finding THE Theory of Everything is about as absurd as catching the horizon.

[...]

My point is that not that there is no logical basis for reality but that no matter how deep or encompassing our theoretical understanding of it is there will always be greater subtleties to be uncovered and explained -- we will never gain perfect understanding.

Our theories are finite cognitive models of an infinite universe. They are provisional understandings that are held until a more robust model is developed that allows us to "see" reality in a higher "resolution" -- so to speak. Theory attempts to map the borders of our conceptual horizons. We fact check the predictions of our theoretical map by surveying the mapped regions of reality thru the scientific method (empirical observation and deduction). The most we can expect of our map is for it to hold accurate until we reach its outer limits -- at which point we find whole new vistas to explore that place our previous map inna whole new context. Our body of knowledge and theory is only a starting reference point from which to build outward into a universe that almost certainly has no ultimate "beginning" or "end" in either scale or scope. Each time we gain a greater understanding of the universe the more baffling and counter intuitive it has become. Whenever it seemed we were on the brink of perfecting our conceptual framework we grabbed what appeared to be the last pieces of the puzzle only to find we knew even less than we thought we did before. From Galileo to Newton to Relativity and Quantum mechanics this pattern has held.

We may eventually find a "Theory of Everything" so vast and so deep that it will hold for centuries or millenia. But, sooner or later, its limits well be reached and a paradigm even more profound will have to replace it. I suppose Doug Adam's got it spot on w/ his metaphor: When the "ultimate" question meets the "ultimate" answer our universe as we know it vanishes and is replaced by something even more inexplicable.
 
No.

The scientific method has demonstrated that it is the most reliable way of obtaining knowledge about how our Universe works. The fact that we are discussing the current topic on our computers, worlds apart, is evidence enough.

So, the scientific method shows what is true and what is not in our world. It shows, for example, that the age of the Earth is at least 4 billion years and not 4000 years as some inane religion proclaims. It shows that our very species evolved from previous lifeforms, lifeforms which by the way have existed since almost the beginning of the Earth. It shows why stars are not "lights on glass spheres" and that the Earth is not the center of the Universe and that things do fall at the same rate, no matter their mass, despite what the Pope says. It shows, once again, how to reliably obtain information about the workings of our Universe.

Religion has not provided a reliable answer regarding anything since it was invented. And every answer it has suggested has been shown to be wrong. By science.

Hence, anyone thinking that any religion anywhere can provide answers to anything at all, is an idiot.

Tell me what if some one was to put to you that the truth of the universe was neither religious ie the Genesis story nor scientific ie Big Bang Theory but in the grey area inbetween Genesis and the Big Bang theory.
Would you still say they are an idiot?
Or lets say for a moment a well respected scientist say like Einstein or Hawkings were to believe in God would that make them an idiot?
 
Tell me what if some one was to put to you that the truth of the universe was neither religious ie the Genesis story nor scientific ie Big Bang Theory but in the grey area inbetween Genesis and the Big Bang theory.
Would you still say they are an idiot?
Or lets say for a moment a well respected scientist say like Einstein or Hawkings were to believe in God would that make them an idiot?

I think what Danish really means is that he is less of an idiot that the billions of religious persons on the globe. The views he holds concerning certain details of the universe are more accurate and he is, therefore, in a completely higher realm of intelligence than your average idiotic religious adherent. Surely, he is an intellectual god amongst a sea of drooling idiots ;)
 
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Tell me what if some one was to put to you that the truth of the universe was neither religious ie the Genesis story nor scientific ie Big Bang Theory but in the grey area inbetween Genesis and the Big Bang theory.
Would you still say they are an idiot?
Or lets say for a moment a well respected scientist say like Einstein or Hawkings were to believe in God would that make them an idiot?

According to my belief hell can't hold all the idiots. I think Einstein is dead
 
I'd say the existence of Dr. Ken Miller, a Christian and a defender of evolution at Dover, kinda puts the OP out of business. ;)
 
The phenomenon that CERN or the LHC are seeking to investigate are things predicted within our current theoretical framework. In other words, they are testing implications and hypotheses that arise from our current theories.
Yes, they will use part of the time to test predictions of current theories. As well they should. This is how knowledge of our world progresses afterall. A theory's predictions will either be shown to be true or they will fail. Simple and clean. And very unlike religious dogma which just declares whatever it wants and holds it as blasphemy to disagree.
Depending on what new data they collect then their empirical observations could be considered, to greater or lesser extents, to be "perinomal". For instance, say if the LHC uncovers phenomenon that is very far removed from anything predicted by any known theory then the observed phenomenon could be considered perinormal until our theoretical framework can be updated to account for them.
Uh, no. When they run experiments to attempt to disprove a theory, the results will either accord with the theory or they won't. There is no other odd classifications of the results.
Since I've already explained the reasons for this in the past and I do not feel like typing my arguments all over again please excuse me as I copy+paste in reply:
Humorous stuff.

Perhaps you should find a more appropriate forum for such....meanderings.
 
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Tell me what if some one was to put to you that the truth of the universe was neither religious ie the Genesis story nor scientific ie Big Bang Theory but in the grey area inbetween Genesis and the Big Bang theory.
Would you still say they are an idiot?
Genesis is not a theory, not even a hypothesis. Anyone thinking so is obviously an idiot.
Or lets say for a moment a well respected scientist say like Einstein or Hawkings were to believe in God would that make them an idiot?
Of course.
 
I think what Danish really means is that he is less of an idiot that the billions of religious persons on the globe. The views he holds concerning certain details of the universe are more accurate and he is, therefore, in a completely higher realm of intelligence than your average idiotic religious adherent. Surely, he is an intellectual god amongst a sea of drooling idiots ;)
Surely you are an intellect beyond my comprehension.
 
AkuManiMani said:
Depending on what new data they collect then their empirical observations could be considered, to greater or lesser extents, to be "perinomal". For instance, say if the LHC uncovers phenomenon that is very far removed from anything predicted by any known theory then the observed phenomenon could be considered perinormal until our theoretical framework can be updated to account for them.

Uh, no. When they run experiments to attempt to disprove a theory, the results will either accord with the theory or they won't. There is no other odd classifications of the results.

Okay, so if new phenomenon are observed there is not attempt to explain or understand them? Falsification and deduction are only half of the scientific process; the fact that you seem to be aware only of that particular half says volumes about you.

[BTW, observations that violate accepted theoretical assumptions are, in technical jargon, called anomalies. In this instance, I've chosen to use the term "perinormal" to refer to deep anomalies that are more resistant to rigorous explanations provided within current understandings.]

AkuManiMani said:
Since I've already explained the reasons for this in the past and I do not feel like typing my arguments all over again please excuse me as I copy+paste in reply

Humorous stuff.

Glad you enjoyed it :p

Perhaps you should find a more appropriate forum for such....meanderings.

You mean like a forum on religion and philosophy? ;)

Seriously, Dyna, you're really starting to convince me that you are infact some kind of advanced Turing machine -- its creepy....

Surely you are an intellect beyond my comprehension.

BOW BEFORE MY UNVINCIBLE BRAINLOGIKZ, MORTAL!
 
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Seems like "idiot and idiocy" are loaded words that have no place in a calm reasonable discussion of religious beliefs. There are enough idiots to go around on both sides it seems. Name calling never accomplishes anything in an argument, but....speaking of the Dover trial, some of those folks on the school board were definitely 2 bricks short of a load :) in my humble opinion.
 
Genesis is not a theory, not even a hypothesis. Anyone thinking so is obviously an idiot.

I never tried saying genesis was a theory or hypothesis I was using it as an example like with einstein

Of course.

But if they are scientists that have the facts how could they be idiots?
 
Genesis is not a theory, not even a hypothesis. Anyone thinking so is obviously an idiot.

You're right -- its mythology. Meaning that its symbolic folklore loosely based off of historical fact, if at all. To compare it to science would be like comparing apples & orangutans. Considering it in any other light is -- whats the word...?

Idiotic!

Yes, its idiotic! :boggled:
 
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Who said genesis was actual scientific fact?

Before you answer keep in mind I never said it was! I was using it as an example of one side of an argument okay people so keep that in mind before getting your panties in a knot
 
I'm not a religious person, but to satisfy DD's request, I can think of a couple of reasons why someone might believe in such things.

1. He/she is looking for the answers to philosophical, rather than scientific questions. The archetypal "why are we here?" sorts of queries can't really be answered by science... at least, not in a way that satisfies the believer.

2. He/she is seeking solace from the fears and doubts that many of us experience. It's comforting to believe that a kinder, gentler existence awaits us after we shuffle off our mortal coils, or that a powerful and loving being created everything and is looking after us.

Undoubtedly, there are others one might articulate. IMO, neither of these is an "idiotic" reason to believe, despite the fact that these positions aren't supported by concrete evidence. From a psychological point of view, it makes some sense that people would come to these conclusions, I think.
Besides, nothing about being smart keeps you from being mistaken in your beliefs; if religion doesn't provide any valid insights into the nature of the universe, it just means the believers are wrong, not necessarily stupid. :)
 

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