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Dean Radin - harmless pseudo-psientist.

In the first instance I can't see much of an issue. Criticising Radin for not performing an analysis in addition the scope of his experiment seems somewhat unfair. Whether or not he should have performed the work for completeness may well be a valid course of discussion but it does not alter the statistics he was presenting.

But that's precisely the problem: It is within the scope of his experiment. He ignores similar spikes and focuses on the ones that - on the surface - prove him right.

He selects his data - cherry-picks, if you like. That's a no-no in science.

In the second it appears he made a minor misrepresentation of his data in an interview. I won't excuse him for that but here's what puzzles me: His data is extensive, published and available to analyse. Why, then, do these criticisms revolve around what he said in an interview once? Why not peer review the data properly?

Read the analysis: The criticism goes far beyond that.
 
I am going with what you said in the OP:
If you want to back down from that, no problem.

Here you go again... What back down? I said, I stand by what I say in paraphrasing it how I see fit.

I'll make this very easy for you:

Instead of focusing on being wrong about me, be wrong about Radin. Or maybe even right. You are critical of him, give us some relevant criticism of his lethodology and results. As Baron noted, you have so far given nothing.

Go ahead, present some evidence, stop the pussy-footing around and refute Radin's claims.

I strongly suggest that you read it, if you want to discuss Radin's claims in any intelligent manner.

Sorry, CFLarsen, but you make it too hard for me to resist sometimes.

You didn't ask if I'd read Radin, you asked if I had his book [sic]. The honest answer is that yes, I have read his books.


To do that, you have to explain what it is Radin claims.

For some reason, you can't do that.

Uh, well, exactly the opposite.

I've said several times:

Radin claims that small amounts of psi exist in terms of precognition and telekinesis (my names for the phenomena).

Precognition is defined as an ability to predict events fractionally before they happen.

Telekinesis being the ability of human minds to influence physical events - for example, the electronic circuitry which selects lottery winners. (Hell, Randi calls lottery "woo", so now he and Radin have two things in common.)

If you are able to refute those claims, please do so.

Had you taken a moment longer than a cursory glance, you would have discovered that one of the articles was not written by me.

Or, to be more accurate, it appears under another name, whose link suspiciously goes to a generic skepticreport e mail. Given the number of times it refers to Claus Larsen, the fact of whether you or someone else wrote it is irrelevant. You try to reference an argument by appealing to yourself. Makes a change from appeal to authority, I guess.

As for the questions:

How about Radin selecting his data?

How about Radin falsely describing when the spikes happened during the OJ verdict?

There are a few points here.

Which scientist does not select his own data? Not that you're a scientist's backside, but you're certainly selecting your very limited data. He's human. If that's all you havem I suggest you give up now.

And he falsely described spikes? Wow. I'm surprised they aren't calling for the death penalty. As Baron notes, if a couple of minor details is the best you have with the thousands of pieces of evidence, you'd better swap sides.

If you can refute Radin's claims, please do so. At your convenience is fine, but if you aren't prepared to present actual evidence, don't bother returning. Richard Wiseman was unable to refute them, although he raised a couple of questions which haven't yet been followed up on, so I'm very keen to see where you're so much smarter than he is.

Right here:

Ridiculous. Even your English isn't that bad. Me not being able to find errors is not a defence in any way, it's simply saying that I couldn't find any errors. As to the articles, I have no need of reading them in any depth, the few slaient points are merely copied from other criticism of Radin. That exact graph must appear on 50 sites.

Are you ready, CFLarsen? One last time.....

If you can refute Radin's claims, please go ahead.
 
I have grave reservations about Radin's conclusions; not because he is some woo making grand claims without experiment or back-up, or because he is a charlatan, but because I believe his statistical calculations must be incorrect in some way. However, I lack the mathematical knowledge to say exactly how.

It is my impression that individuals working within the field, including Radin, are sincere in their efforts. The problems are an over-reliance on meta-analysis, a culture that is relatively naive when it comes to scientific rigour, and the presence of those characteristics which produce more false-positive results than true-positive (bias, testing by several independent teams, small studies, small effect, flexibility in designs/definitions/outcomes/analytic modes). Basically, conclusions based on this research are unlikely to be reliable. In particular, meta-analysis is too unreliable (especially since meta-analyses of the ganzfeld studies have not been robust) to conclude that the existence of an otherwise unrecognized force has been proven.

Radin harbours a number of what I would term suspect beliefs. However, he has also spent considerable effort employing the scientific method, analysing the results and publishing his work. Whether he is correct or not in his conclusions is largely immaterial. To disagree with someone is one thing. To deride someone simply because you disagree with their conclusion is the height of ignorance.

I think the lack of interest from researchers in fields outside of parapsychology (in those fields where there would be interest if the results were true, such as neuroscience, physics, psychology) speaks to the degree to which his conclusions are supported by belief vs. evidence. He wouldn't have to write books in order to make his case, and the field of parapsychology would make a lot more progress, if he/they would focus on performing research that is reliable and therefore persuasive on its own.

Linda
 
Please provide your years of research in the form of statistical papers for me to review and then I may be able to equate your analogy with Radin's work.
Knowing very little about (and having even less interest in) Radin's work, I was answering the OP. I don't care how many years of research someone has done on a subject, if they are saying, as the OP states, that something exists, but cannot be proven, I see those statements, and those years of research, as analogius to the fictional examples I gave. Useless. Silly. Frivolous. Meaningless.

I would use the term "irrelevant" as they have no bearing whatsoever on this discussion. Quite what invisible bigfoots have to do with scientific experiment is beyond me.
Nothing. Nor, if the OP is accurate, does Radin's research.
 
I know I'm late to this party, but figure I'll throw my two cents in anyway.

To me, this mentality ranks amongst the most destructive (from a fundamental science education POV - so please mind my hyperbole).

All science starts with speculation on what could actually be possible. This is the realm of daydreaming and imagination - necessary, and inexhaustable, but so far useless for much more than dream-candy and inspiration on where to start looking. The point is, all speculation is equal. My speculations have as much value as anybody's, hence two conflicting speculations won't progress to being of any use to anybody.

Science is a method of sorting which speculations are useful by way of evidence. Note it's arguably not a road to 'truth', philosophically, but science provides us with a useful means of making the world somewhat more predictable.

Radin's view of adding weight to a speculation which cannot be scientifically validated is giving undue credence to some ideas simply because some people feel it plugs some holes in their thinking. It presents a danger in giving license to people to give weight to any speculation they have. Rather than speculate with an admission that without evidence, it's no different to any other ridiculous idea, people have a 'scientist's' encouragement to bypass the need for evidence and accept the speculation as having some undue worth.

This is the very thing I try to combat in teaching science, and it's difficult enough as it is getting through to students that science is the best method capable of sorting which speculations might be of some use.

Athon
 
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Claus, Athon and Linda, I agree. Thiis stuff is worse than the Fraudian phallacy that set the science of psychology back a century. And those schmendricks didn't even pose as scientists, with the phony baloney ganzfelds and smegmetanalysis.
And your dog knows you're coming home? Get your muffler fixed. Aldler would have known that and he didn't even have a car until 1928.
So Radin might be sincere, but he is either an incompetent scientist, misled, deluded or as wacky as a sack of voles.
 
Knowing very little about (and having even less interest in) Radin's work, I was answering the OP. I don't care how many years of research someone has done on a subject, if they are saying, as the OP states, that something exists, but cannot be proven, I see those statements, and those years of research, as analogius to the fictional examples I gave. Useless. Silly. Frivolous. Meaningless.

Yet how many taxpayer-funded universities in the world study bigfoot?

I know I'm late to this party, but figure I'll throw my two cents in anyway.

To me, this mentality ranks amongst the most destructive (from a fundamental science education POV - so please mind my hyperbole).

This is the very thing I try to combat in teaching science, and it's difficult enough as it is getting through to students that science is the best method capable of sorting which speculations might be of some use.

Athon
(bolding mine)

Well, I think you've answered your own question. Why not just use a cost/benefit analysis on it? Being in Aussie and having the U of Adelaide loaded to the gunwales with this stuff is a bonus.

How many dollars go into funding "research" on parapsychology there? The funding must be public knowledge, so you could easily get it. Then ask what has been achieved for all that funding - answer, precious little; a vague precognition and weak telekinesis. Using that as a comparison to some sexy actual science, the Australian Stem Cell Centre, for instance.

If you go down that track, the differences between reality and fantasy may be somewhat blurred, but the results certainly won't be.
 
I'm not sure what relevance that has, TA. Regardles of how much money is spent on either, or what focus it has, until some results substantiate the claim, it is no different to any other speculation.

I never begrudge anybody who wants to investigate the paranormal. Go for it, I say. The fact that there is little evidence that it will bear fruit means I don't feel the taxpayer should foot the bill, to be blunt, but I feel the same about any research which has little going for it, paranormal or not.

The bottom line is that to give merit to a hypothesis or claim without the evidence only gives license for anybody to do that with their pet thought or idea. By all means speculate, and even seek ways to test that speculation...but until you have something solid, it's not worth writing home about.

Athon
 
Go ahead, present some evidence, stop the pussy-footing around and refute Radin's claims.

I've said several times:

Radin claims that small amounts of psi exist in terms of precognition and telekinesis (my names for the phenomena).

How small? Be specific. You have "read his books", you have "researched Radin & Co thoroughly", so it should be easy for you.

Precognition is defined as an ability to predict events fractionally before they happen.

Wrong. Precognition is the ability to predict events before they happen, period:

Information perceived about future events, where the information could not be inferred by ordinary means. Variations include 'premonition',' a foreboding of an unfavorable future event, and 'presentiment,' a sensing of a future emotion.

Telekinesis being the ability of human minds to influence physical events - for example, the electronic circuitry which selects lottery winners. (Hell, Randi calls lottery "woo", so now he and Radin have two things in common.)

If you are able to refute those claims, please do so.

You are totally ignorant of what Radin really claims:

Psi in Lottery Games
If psi really does affect casino profits, then it should also exist in other types of mass games, like lotteries. To test this idea, we looked at daily payouts from the "Pick 3" lottery game, popular in many U.S. states.
...
We observed that for the year 1993 there was a positive relationship between the planetary GMF and the lunar cycle, with odds of one hundred to one against chance. This being the case, we predicted based on previous observations that there should be a negative relationshop between the lunar cycle and average lottery payouts.

Figure 11.9 shows the result, which confirmed the predicted negative relationship with odds against chance of 130 to 1.

...

If our investigations were correct, and psi does indeed manifest in the pragmatic world of casino and lottery profits, then one might expect to find corroborating evidence from other sources. Such evidence does exist.
Dean Radin, "The Conscious Universe", Chapter 11, p-187-88.

Tell you what: Why don't you get back when you have actually studied Radin's claims, in detail, instead of merely regurgitating whatever you can suck up from a quick Google search?

Or, to be more accurate, it appears under another name, whose link suspiciously goes to a generic skepticreport e mail. Given the number of times it refers to Claus Larsen, the fact of whether you or someone else wrote it is irrelevant. You try to reference an argument by appealing to yourself. Makes a change from appeal to authority, I guess.

If you want to discuss SkepticReport as such, do so in another thread.


Which scientist does not select his own data? Not that you're a scientist's backside, but you're certainly selecting your very limited data. He's human. If that's all you havem I suggest you give up now.

:eek:

"Which scientist does not select his own data?"?

Such statements serve only to expose your ignorance: If he is doing real science, he doesn't select his own data.

And he falsely described spikes? Wow. I'm surprised they aren't calling for the death penalty. As Baron notes, if a couple of minor details is the best you have with the thousands of pieces of evidence, you'd better swap sides.

It isn't, by far. But these claims are crucial to Radin's claims of scientific evidence of a global consciousness. Misrepresenting the data the way he does casts serious doubt about the rest of what he does.

If you can refute Radin's claims, please do so. At your convenience is fine, but if you aren't prepared to present actual evidence, don't bother returning. Richard Wiseman was unable to refute them, although he raised a couple of questions which haven't yet been followed up on, so I'm very keen to see where you're so much smarter than he is.

Where does Wiseman say he was "unable to refute them"?

Ridiculous. Even your English isn't that bad. Me not being able to find errors is not a defence in any way, it's simply saying that I couldn't find any errors. As to the articles, I have no need of reading them in any depth, the few slaient points are merely copied from other criticism of Radin. That exact graph must appear on 50 sites.

You refuse to address criticism of Radin's research, then.
 
That's the key question, isn't it. I used to think the answer was easily "no". But I'm changing my mind. Realistically, in the current environment, a skeptic isn't just someone who scientifically assesses information. She/he is someone who promotes the use of scientific assessment instead of faith and who concerns her/himself with accurately representing the results of that assessment. And this has become a political issue, particularly in the US.

Are moderate beliefs deserving of this activism just because radical beliefs can be harmful? I have watched as what I originally saw as inconsequential beliefs have led to countless deaths and a waste of resources sorely needed for other areas. The inconsequential fringe use of 'alternative' medicine has grown into a multi-billion dollar industry that now uses our tax dollars (through NCCAM) to perform research that is pre-selected to be a waste of time (research that is unlikely to be a waste of time is picked up through conventional channels). And while a few people die from taking toxic therapies or by foregoing effective treatment in developed countries, of more concern to me is the patina of respect given to these therapies which allows them to be adopted systematically, leading to far more deaths, in less developed countries (I'm thinking of the treatment of AIDS in some African countries as an example). The anti-vaccination movement which originally consisted of a small number of easily dismissed radicals has now become relatively mainstream and has led to millions of deaths - not just from outbreaks of vaccine-preventable disease in developed countries, but from the millions of deaths in less developed countries from measles and polio when the eradication goals were derailed.

Sam Harris makes a case for these consequences with respect to religion.

I wasn't aware that there is a causal link between belief in unproven therapeutic methods and and the death toll taken by epidemic diseases in underdeveloped countries. To me the reasons seemed to be predominantly poverty, general lack of education, underestimation of the actual threat and negligence.

The delays in actions against AIDS in southafrica for example looked more like a political decision by Mbeki's governement to use an incorrectly estimated danger as a leverage to further a program to fight poverty. It may have been guided by an understandable sentiment against pharmaceutic bussiness interrests.

The most vocal critic of the NCCAM seems to be a certain Stephen Barret who claims to be a consumer-protection-activist and runs a network of websites with a strong anti-CAM-bias. From the information on Quackwatch about himself and from information from the sites of his detractors, he is at least controversial as an objective evaluator of methods outside his immeadiate expertise.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCCAM:

Critics attest that despite the publicized intentions at its founding, NCCAM and its predecessor, the Office of Alternative Medicine, have spent more than $800 million on such research since 1991 but have neither succeeded in scientifically demonstrating the efficacy of a single alternative method nor declared any alternative medicine treatment effective.

I would consider research into and evaluation of a phenomenon that apparently gained widespread public acceptance (CAM) actually a good use of money.
But while $800 million over the course of 16 years doesn't sound like that much, compared with the top line for accepted pharmaceuticals like prozac, the funding of a research institution which produces no result for that long is likely in dire need of a review.

And now we are discussing these consequences with respect to psychics. It seems the results are less dire than in other areas. But would it really be wise to assume that if we ignore them, they will go away rather than expand to the point where heads of state depend upon their advice?

Which poses a problem in it's own. Most psychics don't actually work as health practicioners. Those that do should be scrutinized to the same degree as practicioners of more accepted therapeutic methods.

A psychic who claims to solve criminal cases should be evaluated according to the same standards which are applied to any any professional investigator and I wholeheartedly agree that, given their miserable track record, they can be called frauds in most cases.

The rest seems to provide a similar service to that provided by a priest, which is a rather fuzzy area that could be characterised as interpersonal counseling. It deals mainly with the clients beliefs and tries to utilize them (hopefully) to the clients advantage. Since this involves rather complex personal interactions, has to be adapted to the client, and is hard to isolate from environmental factors the testability is limited. Specific claims, like help in smoking cessation can be statistically evaluated, but studies of this kind can't for example be blinded.

I admit that the scientific method is the best we have to determine whether a specific treatment is effective. The efficacy of many treatments in this area can only evaluated subjectively though and ocassionaly even scientifically accepted opinions have to be revised, as exemplified by the latest SSRI-study.

This makes most of the field of therapeutic counseling virtually unfalsifiable. I don't think it should be labeled superstitious, ineffective or dangerous on this ground.

What worries me about the drawn paralell between religion and psi-research, and the stated need for activism, is where you would be willing to draw the line. I got from other threads on this board that exposing a psychic in front of a group of comforting-seeking clients ( thereby spoiling their experience and possibly their sense of closure ) is considered by many here a laudable action. Similar flooding the comment area of a website that promotes Sylvia Brown seems to be regarded by many here as a kind of civil duty. Her fans might consider it to be harrasment. Such things make me wonder how far some skeptics would go in their effort to promote THE TRUTH. What would be the stance on Phelps-style picketings of christian masses or christian funerals, if christianity as a religion has to be denounced? Would people here be in support of a legislation that would outlaw all counseling that isn't restricted to specific cases that could statistically be proven to be effective?

Pointing out methodical errors in Radin's reserach is part of the normal scientific process. Trying to discredit the man for ideological reasons is not. The freedom of research should, in my opinion, be worth more than interim opinions of an interrest group about what is worthy of research.

I don't really know how important it is for these movements to adopt the patina of respect that science provides. They all seem to make a point of referring to science, even if they grossly misuse it. But I don't know if they would get fewer converts if skeptics made a more concerted effort to prevent that misuse, or whether it would turn out not to be important after all.

I would think it is not very important. For selling a mass product perceived credibility is more important than actual results to backup your claims. Being rigorously and successfully tested is good if you want to sell to skeptics. For the general population it is sufficient to be associated with the current woo-words, which in more christian times might have included 'sacred virgin' or 'holy spirit', in the 60's and 70's of the last century included 'psychedelic','cosmic' and 'space' and currently seem to include 'quantum', 'superstring' and 'double-blind'.

The 'scientific patina' seems to come more from half understood or misunderstood concepts than from actual research. An example of this is quantum theory, which sprouted a whole lot of ideas about consciousness influencing reality. Blaming Radin's research, regardless of whether he actually has a case, for the exploits of Sylvia Browne looks to me like blaming the late Heisenberg for Ramtha and 'The Secret'.
 
I wasn't aware that there is a causal link between belief in unproven therapeutic methods and and the death toll taken by epidemic diseases in underdeveloped countries. To me the reasons seemed to be predominantly poverty, general lack of education, underestimation of the actual threat and negligence.

The delays in actions against AIDS in southafrica for example looked more like a political decision by Mbeki's governement to use an incorrectly estimated danger as a leverage to further a program to fight poverty. It may have been guided by an understandable sentiment against pharmaceutic bussiness interrests.

That is my impression as well - that Mbeki serves as an example where the superficial patina of science is used to support a decision taken for other reasons. I think either use of science (someone is persuaded to adopt unproven therapies by the 'evidence' or someone recognizes that the 'evidence' can be presented as though it is persuasive) is relevant to this discussion. And that sometimes it is not possible to distinguish which use is in play. For example, I think many of the parents who are against vaccines have simply been persuaded by the (mis)information they have been exposed to. But I suspect that the anti-vaccine message was chosen by certain groups (those who are unable to provide vaccines and other medical therapies) in order to justify an attempt to take over what they see as a lucrative market (well-child care) rather than any objections to the practice on the basis of evidence (purely paranoid speculation on my part :)).

The most vocal critic of the NCCAM seems to be a certain Stephen Barret who claims to be a consumer-protection-activist and runs a network of websites with a strong anti-CAM-bias. From the information on Quackwatch about himself and from information from the sites of his detractors, he is at least controversial as an objective evaluator of methods outside his immeadiate expertise.

He is not the only critic of NCCAM, though. Nor does the information you chose to quote seem to come from him.

I would consider research into and evaluation of a phenomenon that apparently gained widespread public acceptance (CAM) actually a good use of money.
But while $800 million over the course of 16 years doesn't sound like that much, compared with the top line for accepted pharmaceuticals like prozac, the funding of a research institution which produces no result for that long is likely in dire need of a review.

I think that summarizes the general attitude critics have toward NCCAM - at the start they thought it was a good idea, but looking back on what it has accomplished over 16 years, the idea needs serious review.

Which poses a problem in it's own. Most psychics don't actually work as health practicioners. Those that do should be scrutinized to the same degree as practicioners of more accepted therapeutic methods.

I did not mean to imply that I was thinking of psychics as health practitioners, although looking back at what I wrote, I realize it can be taken that way. I meant to refer to those things that psychics involve themselves in - solving crimes, giving advice, predicting the future, contacting spirits, etc.

A psychic who claims to solve criminal cases should be evaluated according to the same standards which are applied to any any professional investigator and I wholeheartedly agree that, given their miserable track record, they can be called frauds in most cases.

The rest seems to provide a similar service to that provided by a priest, which is a rather fuzzy area that could be characterised as interpersonal counseling. It deals mainly with the clients beliefs and tries to utilize them (hopefully) to the clients advantage. Since this involves rather complex personal interactions, has to be adapted to the client, and is hard to isolate from environmental factors the testability is limited. Specific claims, like help in smoking cessation can be statistically evaluated, but studies of this kind can't for example be blinded.

I admit that the scientific method is the best we have to determine whether a specific treatment is effective. The efficacy of many treatments in this area can only evaluated subjectively though and ocassionaly even scientifically accepted opinions have to be revised, as exemplified by the latest SSRI-study.

This makes most of the field of therapeutic counseling virtually unfalsifiable. I don't think it should be labeled superstitious, ineffective or dangerous on this ground.

And of course, since normal people can do all these things, none of it necessarily indicates a need for special means of obtaining information. The concern is over the appearance of legitimacy, and whether someone puts their trust where under any other circumstance they wouldn't (if I offered to pick some lottery numbers for you for ten dollars you'd look askance at me, but if I dress it up with magic, all of a sudden you might find it reasonable). And most of the time, even if you fall for it, you're only out some time and a little money. But where could it lead? My example was a head-of-state making foolish decisions, but applying a little research and imagination leads to many other examples that most people would consider seriously harmful.

What worries me about the drawn paralell between religion and psi-research, and the stated need for activism, is where you would be willing to draw the line. I got from other threads on this board that exposing a psychic in front of a group of comforting-seeking clients ( thereby spoiling their experience and possibly their sense of closure ) is considered by many here a laudable action.

I know which thread you're talking about, although I didn't participate in it. A psychic chose to take advantage of vulnerable people and take their money under fraudulent circumstances. That someone was given the opportunity to reveal the fraud, and chose to do so, is not where I would draw the line. I realize that given a choice, some people would prefer to be deceived under these circumstances. And while I can be sensitive to this (even though I find it incomprehensible), I cannot justify standing by and doing nothing.

Similar flooding the comment area of a website that promotes Sylvia Brown seems to be regarded by many here as a kind of civil duty. Her fans might consider it to be harrasment.

I would draw the line there, especially since the attempt was clearly harassment, rather than making sure they had access to an alternate viewpoint. And I would like to point out that Robert Lancaster, whom I hold up as a model for what we should be doing as skeptics, discouraged/condemned their actions.

Such things make me wonder how far some skeptics would go in their effort to promote THE TRUTH. What would be the stance on Phelps-style picketings of christian masses or christian funerals, if christianity as a religion has to be denounced? Would people here be in support of a legislation that would outlaw all counseling that isn't restricted to specific cases that could statistically be proven to be effective?

I suspect that most would not go that far, since I don't recall examples of those steps being taken.

Pointing out methodical errors in Radin's reserach is part of the normal scientific process. Trying to discredit the man for ideological reasons is not. The freedom of research should, in my opinion, be worth more than interim opinions of an interrest group about what is worthy of research.

It wasn't clear to me what particular actions were being advocated with regards to Radin (probably my fault for not reading the thread that apparently inspired the OP). It seems reasonable to suggest that valid criticism of his work is readily available, so that lay-people looking for information can get several perspectives. This means that we should encourage people knowledgeable on this topic who are in the habit of writing blogs and articles to do so. The normal scientific process can sort out whether any of his research is of further interest (outside of parapsychology) - I don't think activism has any particular role there.

I would think it is not very important. For selling a mass product perceived credibility is more important than actual results to backup your claims. Being rigorously and successfully tested is good if you want to sell to skeptics. For the general population it is sufficient to be associated with the current woo-words, which in more christian times might have included 'sacred virgin' or 'holy spirit', in the 60's and 70's of the last century included 'psychedelic','cosmic' and 'space' and currently seem to include 'quantum', 'superstring' and 'double-blind'.

The 'scientific patina' seems to come more from half understood or misunderstood concepts than from actual research. An example of this is quantum theory, which sprouted a whole lot of ideas about consciousness influencing reality. Blaming Radin's research, regardless of whether he actually has a case, for the exploits of Sylvia Browne looks to me like blaming the late Heisenberg for Ramtha and 'The Secret'.

That's a good example. If fifty years ago the physicists had quickly corrected references to observation as a technical term, to make it clear it had nothing to do with a conscious being looking at something, would it have prevented the all-pervasive woo of The Secret and the latest round of homeopathy?

The sort of activism I am thinking of is readily available, valid criticisms of his work on the internet. Challenging him if he publicly provides support to psychics. Engaging in debate when the opportunities arise. Protesting research funding through public funds. More of a concerted effort by scientists in the relevant fields to address his work. The normal scientific process condemns research by ignoring it. However, this gives the impression to lay-people and others that it may still be valid (see this talk page on Wikipedia as an example).

Will it make a difference? I don't know. But we already know doing nothing makes it worse.

Linda
 
CFLarsen, you're making it clear that:

A) you cannot understand plain English. I was clearly setting out in broad detail what Radin claims - which are the same as the claims you fail to refute on your own site.

B) you cannot refute Radin's work.

I repeat; instead of focusing on the way I'm describing the claims, if you have any actual evidence to refute Radin's claims, go ahead and produce it.

I have $100 bet says that you won't do any such thing, but instead will come back crying and dribbling some more.
 
CFLarsen, you're making it clear that:

A) you cannot understand plain English. I was clearly setting out in broad detail what Radin claims - which are the same as the claims you fail to refute on your own site.

B) you cannot refute Radin's work.

I repeat; instead of focusing on the way I'm describing the claims, if you have any actual evidence to refute Radin's claims, go ahead and produce it.

I have $100 bet says that you won't do any such thing, but instead will come back crying and dribbling some more.

Exactly what claims are you talking about?

Exactly how small amounts of psi does Radin claim exist in terms of precognition and telekinesis?

Where does Wiseman say he was "unable to refute" Radin's claims?
 
Exactly what claims are you talking about?

Exactly how small amounts of psi does Radin claim exist in terms of precognition and telekinesis?

Where does Wiseman say he was "unable to refute" Radin's claims?

Ah, as I expected, my $100 was safer than a man in church.

CFLarsen, let me remind you again that this thread isn't about me claiming anything. You claim to be able to refute Radin's claims.

For the fifth time, please go ahead and do so.
 
CFLarsen, you're making it clear that:

A) you cannot understand plain English. I was clearly setting out in broad detail what Radin claims - which are the same as the claims you fail to refute on your own site.

B) you cannot refute Radin's work.

I repeat; instead of focusing on the way I'm describing the claims, if you have any actual evidence to refute Radin's claims, go ahead and produce it.

I have $100 bet says that you won't do any such thing, but instead will come back crying and dribbling some more.

In post #49, I quoted Radin on what he claims: That not only does psi exist, it is measurable and is a phenomenon big enough to measurably influence the outcome of casino and lottery profits.

Since you think Radin's claims haven't been refuted - and you insist that you haven't misunderstood what Radin claims - it is up to you to defend that:

  1. Psi exists.
  2. Psi is strong enough to influence gambling at casinos and playing the lottery.

The onus is on you.
 
The 'scientific patina' seems to come more from half understood or misunderstood concepts than from actual research. An example of this is quantum theory, which sprouted a whole lot of ideas about consciousness influencing reality. Blaming Radin's research, regardless of whether he actually has a case, for the exploits of Sylvia Browne looks to me like blaming the late Heisenberg for Ramtha and 'The Secret'.

Outstanding post!

You make a hell of a lot of good points very well.

:bigclap

Will it make a difference? I don't know. But we already know doing nothing makes it worse.

Linda

How do we know that? I'm not 100% sure it's at all true.

A lot of the time, I wonder whether the old adage, "Any publicity is good publicity" comes into play and we might end up doing more harm than good attacking things. Add into that the fact that to attack psi or any other silliness, we muct take the negative approach. In a time when positivity and inclusion are rammed down throats of children at school and adults at work, we can end up looking like grumpy old buggers with only negative comments.

This thread's a classic example of it - loads of innuendo but no evidence to refute the thousands of hours of research Radin has put into it. People who believe his work see it being funded by taxpayers and reputable organisations worldwide. To counter that needs something we don't have.

Take a woman who has questions about Sylvia Browne's skills, for instance. She comes to this site and sees Browne and Radin being attacked equally. Scanning the evidence, she finds none against Radin which stacks up to any kind of analysis, while recognising that actual universities pay for his research. Why should she think our analysis of Sylvia Browne is any more accurate?
 
A lot of the time, I wonder whether the old adage, "Any publicity is good publicity" comes into play and we might end up doing more harm than good attacking things. Add into that the fact that to attack psi or any other silliness, we muct take the negative approach. In a time when positivity and inclusion are rammed down throats of children at school and adults at work, we can end up looking like grumpy old buggers with only negative comments.

This thread's a classic example of it - loads of innuendo but no evidence to refute the thousands of hours of research Radin has put into it. People who believe his work see it being funded by taxpayers and reputable organisations worldwide. To counter that needs something we don't have.

Take a woman who has questions about Sylvia Browne's skills, for instance. She comes to this site and sees Browne and Radin being attacked equally. Scanning the evidence, she finds none against Radin which stacks up to any kind of analysis, while recognising that actual universities pay for his research. Why should she think our analysis of Sylvia Browne is any more accurate?

Please defend your claim that:

  1. Psi exists.
  2. Psi is strong enough to influence gambling at casinos and playing the lottery.

The onus is on you.
 
Please defend your claim that:

  1. Psi exists.
  2. Psi is strong enough to influence gambling at casinos and playing the lottery.

The onus is on you.

CFLarsen, please show where I made those claims.

Stop spamming lies. You clearly are unable to debate the actual topic.

Thanks
 
Do you deny that Radin made the claims I posted in post#49, yes or no?

Do you deny that you said that Radin's claim hadn't been refuted, yes or no?

I have asked you on many, many occasions to answer a yes/no question, but never succeeded, no matter how simplistic or relvant those questions were in effort to make you state a position. Now, you are insisting that I be drawn into a little game of it. The irony level when conversing with you is such that I have been asked to shift house. We live on the flight-path and pilots are having trouble with their compasses when they fly over.

Neither of your questions has any relevance whatsoever to this or any other discussion I'm involved in. This thread is about Dean Radin, not me.

I have been forced to come to the conclusion that you are either a troll or mentally ill. (have you read that Prozac doesn't actually work most of the time?)

Each and every time you involve yourself in a thread I am in, you do nothing more than troll, lie, and ask questions to avoid the point - exactly as you're doing here. All the way through this and the other thread, you have consistently refused to place evidence that you can refute Radin's claims. And when you attempt to do so, you quote yourself! If that isn't either a sign of mental disturbance or trolling, then there's obviously some third alternative I haven't seen to date. You are quite clearly obsessive and prepared to lie to make points, the purpose of which is only known to you. That itself is highly suggestive of problems.

The final nail in your coffin is that I have stated on several occasions that I am aware of what Radin claims and that I cannot refute his evidence. Anyone with even your standard of English would not equate that to me supporting any of Radin's statements as true. Those questions have been asked and answered several times, yet here you are asking them again so as to ensure the last post in the series is of you asking some absurdly irrelevant question to avoid the real point.

Further evidence is, despite your bluster and obfuscation, you're clearly the softest poster in the forum. How many other posters have had people suspended for having their name changed by one single letter? I bet none.

CFLarsen, this is a long post in answer to two irrelvant and already-answered questions, but alas, it is time for us to part. Congratulations on being the first person to be consigned to the rubbish bin. Iamme, DOC, Minister of Truth, dear KuriousKathy, young Amy Wilson, even your good countryman, DanishDynamite, Articulett, ChistopherA even! Take your pick - posters whose money I wouldn't use to wipe my backside - not one on ignore.

Still, I guess you're used to being lonely!

:bgrin:
 

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