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This is the Government that You Want to Run Health-care?

One must understand that if one allows the majority to determine ones rights that society may take ones life as the majority can deem ones life a burden to society.

I have a newsflash for you: If you live in the US, that's the system you live under right now.

The rights you have are a function of:

1) The US Constitution
2) Your individual state constitution

Either of these can be changed if enough people want them changed. Your rights could be changed tomorrow if enough people want them changed to alter the constitutions.

The only thing democracy does is raise the bar to violating/altering someones rights, it does not remove the possibility. In fact, significant portions of the US population have recent memories of their rights being routinely violated.

I am not aware of any governmental system that can guarantee individual rights forever and all time. Of course, a cave, a rifle and a lifetime supply of pork and beans is always an option. :)
 
Skeptical, I think I have found the underlying difference between our view and Jerome's

Sorry, I thought hoped you shared the assumption that even poor people should get healthcare.

Remember medicaid is bad, not because it is ineffective, but because it exists at all.
 
I also see much talk of the insurance companies being responsible for the high costs of health care, but are not doctor's responsible as well? I say this because I was going to have a procedure performed about a month ago and the difference in costs for the surgery between me being insured and not insured was about $10K ... 10K difference for a $6000 surgery. Uhhh, is someone trying to take advantage of insurance or am I again mistaken?

Which number was higher, the insured cost or the not-insured cost?
 
Working as I do in a wholly private area of healthcare, which has seen insurance coverage of the patients increase from negligible to quite a significant proportion during my career, I can tell you it does happen. There was one guy who simply announced that he did not take uninsured clients, end of story. And as far as I know her got away with it. Others are at the very least strongly suspected of loading insured clients' bills with all the extraneous blood tests and so on they think they can get away with, necessary or not.

It's bloody unethical, and insurance companies need to fight it. So do professional bodies.

However, that should not preclude a genuinely needy client being offered a pared-down procedure or service if they can't affort state-of-the-art, because if it's state-of-the-art or nothing, then it may turn out to be nothing.

Rolfe.
 
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Working as I do in a wholly private area of healthcare, which has seen insurance coverage of the patients increase from negligible to quite a significant proportion during my career, I can tell you it does happen. There was one guy who simply announced that he did not take uninsured clients, end of story. And as far as I know her got away with it. Others are at the very least strongly suspected of loading insured clients' bills with all the extraneous blood tests and so on they think they can get away with, necessary or not.

It's bloody unethical, and insurance companies need to fight it. So do professional bodies.

However, that should not preclude a genuinely needy client being offered a pared-down procedure or service if they can't affort state-of-the-art, because if it's state-of-the-art or nothing, then it may turn out to be nothing.

Rolfe.


Unethical? Restaurants can refuse to serve any one they want, why can't doctors? :boggled:
 
Unethical? Restaurants can refuse to serve any one they want, why can't doctors? :boggled:

Rolfe is saying that the vet only took on insured animals so that he (the vet) could increase his revenue by carrying out non-medically indicated treatments that he knew the insurance company would pay for.

I have a personal anecdote that suggests this may sadly be quite widespread, one of my cats was having to have an operation to remove a cracked tooth and prior to the operation the vet suggested he have a wide range of blood tests. When I asked why and how much they would be the vet's first answer was "oh the insurance company will pay for it." On further questioning I ended up agreeing to have a subset of the blood tests she had initially suggested because they seemed they could help inform the operation.

But hey that's a private system for you i.e. profit not health-care at the heart of the system.
 
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I once got a circular from a company selling DIY lab testing machines to vets. The text said, "your clients are now ready for pre-anaesthetic profiles in young healthy animals". At that time, the company concerned didn't even have a vet in their employ.

They were (and still are) flogging toy blood testing machines that were not in any case fit for purpose, to vets with no training or experience in running a pathology lab, with the sales pitch that they could do the tests themselves and so keep the money. (What they didn't say was that in fact the DIY machine would cost the vet more to run than sending his samples to a professional lab!)

Many vets being a tad gullible, this line sold like hot cakes. Vets who had previously been very stingy about requesting blood tests suddenly started doing them wholesale. This of course increased the practice turnover. It took quite a lot of them a long time to realise it was doing nothing for their profits. Some of them never realised. The results are questionable anyway, and the whole thing is just one massive waste of money. It's exceedingly rare for any unsuspected problem to come up in such testing, and even rarer to find a problem you can do something constructive about. Mostly you get incidental abnormalities, which can cause all sorts of problems as people start fussing about these numbers and putting off necessary surgery and ordering more unnecessary tests.

When that circular came round I was shocked, and pointed out to a few people that this was entirely illegitimate advice, coming from people whose only aim was to market their product, and come to think of it, if I (as their professional colleague, not an unqualified salesman) had said the same thing but suggested they send the blood samples to my lab, would they not quite rightly see it as a cynical marketing exercise?

Nevertheless, the practice has become widespread. The Association of Veterinary Anaesthetists has tried to stop it, and various academics are finally realising what a pointless exercise it is and weighing in (though unfortunately some naive academics fell for the hype originally and passed the advice on to students). More widespread insurance cover has certainly made matters worse, as practices who might have had qualms about ripping off the poor owner are quite happy to rip off the insurance company. Of course they wouldn't see it as ripping off. (One of the insurance companies asked me about this a long time ago, and I told them what I thought, but nothing changed. I suspect they don't want to restrict cover because it might put them at a marketing disadvantage, and they don't have the meddling ethos the US human medical insurers seem to have - they don't dictate to the vet what is clinically appropriate.)

Many people have realised that the results are unreliable and the process very costly, but they have tied themselves in a marketing knot by boasting to clients how quickly they can get the blood tests done, and very few practices are prepared to step back and consider the fact that few blood test requests are genuinely urgent, especially pre-anaesthetic ones before elective surgery, and what they should be doing is sending all the routine stuff to be handled by people who know what they're doing (for about a third of the price of doing it themselves), and concentrating on identifying what is needed for genuine emergencies - a completely different set of requirements and kit as it happens. So this bad practice is seriously ingrained in the profession now I'm afraid. Some practices actually have a section on their anaesthetic consent form, making clients who decline these blood tests sign a disclaimer. I think that's moral blackmail.

The company selling the dodgy instruments became so successful that they bought out my business, hence my recent change of job. In the short period I worked for them I tried to put forward my view on the matter. I had a arts graduate saying "but wouldn't you want to pay the extra just to be absolutely sure?" I couldn't get it through that there was no way such testing could make anyone absolutely sure, and on the contrary a false sense of security could be a bad thing. I also pointed out that the more common situation was that incidental abnormalities caused a lot of trouble. She wasn't listening. Her own hype was completely ingrained, and in any case it was all about profit - "we have a duty to the shareholders".

I've had two elective surgeries myself, both private - one paid for by BUPA and one self-funded. Both times I had a pre-anaesthetic consultation. Neither time was any blood testing suggested. The second time (BUPA-funded) I asked the nurse, aren't you going to do a pre-anaesthetic blood test? She of course didn't realise my tongue was in my cheek, and said worriedly, no, why do you think you might need one, is there something you're not telling me? A colleague is going in for elective orthopaedic surgery in two weeks. She had her pre-anaesthetic consultation on Monday. No suggestion of any blood tests. This is simply not done in human medicine, so I can see no reason for vets to take this line.

I was at a class reunion last year, when one guy started boasting about how much money he was making. I challenged him about his practice of insisting on blood testing everything before it was anaesthetised. Pure profiteering (and remember, I make my living by doing blood tests - the only difference is I like to do them properly, and there is enough that nees doing without inventing it anyway). He argued back. Then it was revealed that a man in the same conversation, the husband of a classmate, was a consultant surgeon at a top teaching hospital - an orthopod I think. He also started criticising the profit-happy vet, saying that such testing was entirely unnecessary. A friend commented, you'll never persuade Richard out of that one, he's been adamant for years about blood testing everything. She then reminded me that Richard had been the dunce who had taken ten years to complete a five-year course (not actually allowed by the rules but they somehow got bent), and what was he doing at the party anyway because he hadn't graduated with us.

I sighed and wandered off to talk to more congenial company.

Sorry, this is a rant, but it drives me mad. If any vet suggests blood testing for general screening (as opposed to a real diagnostic requirement), you probably want to say no. (It doesn't fool everybody. My neighbour had a cat with a bite abscess and I had a look at him late one evening. I said best take him in first thing in the morning. The abscess burst on the consulting room table, but she still ended up with a big bill. She said to me, "I was stupid, I fell for that stuff about blood tests." She'd worked it out for herself.)

Pre-anaesthetic blood testing for no specific clinical reason is the veterinary equivalent of the extended five-year warranty.

[/rant]

Rolfe.
 
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I have a newsflash for you: If you live in the US, that's the system you live under right now.

The rights you have are a function of:

1) The US Constitution
2) Your individual state constitution


Rights are not given by the Constitutions, the Constitutions were created to guarantee the natural rights which inherently exist in the individual.
 
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Rolfe is saying that the vet only took on insured animals so that he (the vet) could increase his revenue by carrying out non-medically indicated treatments that he knew the insurance company would pay for.

I have a personal anecdote that suggests this may sadly be quite widespread, one of my cats was having to have an operation to remove a cracked tooth and prior to the operation the vet suggested he have a wide range of blood tests. When I asked why and how much they would be the vet's first answer was "oh the insurance company will pay for it." On further questioning I ended up agreeing to have a subset of the blood tests she had initially suggested because they seemed they could help inform the operation.

But hey that's a private system for you i.e. profit not health-care at the heart of the system.


Now back to my point - many doctors and clinics in the USA refuse to accept Medicare, or especially various state Medicaid-plan, patients. And usually for financial reasons (i.e., they prefer to get paid for their services). I, for one, don't see a problem with that.
 
Working as I do in a wholly private area of healthcare, which has seen insurance coverage of the patients increase from negligible to quite a significant proportion during my career, I can tell you it does happen. There was one guy who simply announced that he did not take uninsured clients, end of story. And as far as I know her got away with it. Others are at the very least strongly suspected of loading insured clients' bills with all the extraneous blood tests and so on they think they can get away with, necessary or not.

It's bloody unethical, and insurance companies need to fight it. So do professional bodies.

However, that should not preclude a genuinely needy client being offered a pared-down procedure or service if they can't affort state-of-the-art, because if it's state-of-the-art or nothing, then it may turn out to be nothing.

Rolfe.

I can confirm that this is a common problem in the US Healthcare system in which physicians and hospitals are reimbursed on a per service basis (also called Fee-For-Service).

We actually tried to address this problem back in the 70's with HMO's. Instead of reimbursing physicians for each blood test they perform, they were given a flat amount of money per month for every patient they were responsible for. It was up to the physician to prioritize care since they had no incentive to run unnecessary tests. By and large, this approach worked in terms of controlling costs. Unfortunately, a backlash began in the early 90's. My own opinion is that much of the backlash was created for political gain (that's not to say that some HMO's weren't engaging in abusive practices).

As I understand it, the British Health system basically works like one big HMO.
 
Now back to my point - many doctors and clinics in the USA refuse to accept Medicare, or especially various state Medicaid-plan, patients. And usually for financial reasons (i.e., they prefer to get paid for their services). I, for one, don't see a problem with that.


This is somethnig different. They only take insured patients. That means they don't take clients who are paying in person.

The point is that people who are paying in person might actually ask the sort of questions Darat did about why some of this stuff needs doing. There might be market pressure just to do what's needed, or what the client can afford. Can't have that!

Rolfe.
 
Having said that though, we need to do away with SSA. At the very least, I should be able to opt out, which by law I cannot. Let me get this straight, I can put in ~$300 / month * 12 * (~40 yrs) = $144,000 for a lifetime, die 1 year after retiring and the remainder goes back to the gov't??? At least with private savings and other retirement mechanisms, I could liquidate and give everything to my kids. Please tell me I am misinformed.

And if you started using that $144,000 for income at your presumed $5000/month level it would last you 28 months after your retirement. SS is not designed to provide for *you*, but rather all those other people retiring this year - something like 1.5 or so per wage earner. You are providing, presumably, 100% of their income now, so you better get digging. You'll get yours from some poor person who is not yet born.

I also see much talk of the insurance companies being responsible for the high costs of health care, but are not doctor's responsible as well? I say this because I was going to have a procedure performed about a month ago and the difference in costs for the surgery between me being insured and not insured was about $10K ... 10K difference for a $6000 surgery. Uhhh, is someone trying to take advantage of insurance or am I again mistaken?

You understand how insurance works with hospitals, right? Since insurance represents a block of people, they can demand, and get, discounts from their vendors - doctors and hospitals. That's how they keep their costs down, while demanding the best that technology provides. These vendors cannot simply accept to absorb the discounts (and not have that interfere with golf schedules or irate shareholders), so they pass the additional costs along to the uninsured. The uninsured have to absorb their own costs plus the discounts, and since more insured people use the facilities than uninsured, the share of the discounts is often greater than the real cost of the care. Double or nothing. Same thing applies to pharmacies, auto repair places, funeral parlors, etc.
 
You are providing, presumably, 100% of their income now, so you better get digging. You'll get yours from some poor person who is not yet born.
Are you familiar with the demographics of this country? How many working people will be supporting every retired person in 40 years?

This is the problem of SS.
 
And if you started using that $144,000 for income at your presumed $5000/month level it would last you 28 months after your retirement.
Actually, using a conservative 7% rate of return his retirement savings would be worth $787,444 in 40 years at a $300/month contribution rate. Enough to last many years at $5,000/month.
 
You understand how insurance works with hospitals, right? Since insurance represents a block of people, they can demand, and get, discounts from their vendors - doctors and hospitals. That's how they keep their costs down, while demanding the best that technology provides. These vendors cannot simply accept to absorb the discounts (and not have that interfere with golf schedules or irate shareholders), so they pass the additional costs along to the uninsured. The uninsured have to absorb their own costs plus the discounts, and since more insured people use the facilities than uninsured, the share of the discounts is often greater than the real cost of the care. Double or nothing. Same thing applies to pharmacies, auto repair places, funeral parlors, etc.


Actually, the cost shifting works in the opposite direction. The insured population is subsidizing the costs of the uninsured.

Now, it is true that insurance companies negotiate discounts with hospitals. It is also true that what a hospital will bill an uninsured individual is much higher than what it would bill an insured individual.

The missing piece is that hospitals tend to collect very little of what they bill an uninsured person. Either they get no payment at all, or they settle for a fraction of the cost, realizing that something is better than nothing when it comes to an uninsured individual of limited financial means.

One of the main problems with the US healthcare system is that private insurance tends to subsidize a lot of care. Hospitals don't have a lot of leverage in the reimbursements they get from Medicare and Medicaid. They can't get much money from the poor and uninsured. Any shortfall tends to be made up with higher reimbursement rates for the privately insured, making private insurance more expensive.
 
This is somethnig different. They only take insured patients. That means they don't take clients who are paying in person.

The point is that people who are paying in person might actually ask the sort of questions Darat did about why some of this stuff needs doing. There might be market pressure just to do what's needed, or what the client can afford. Can't have that!

Rolfe.


Utterly wrong - they refuse government insured patients because of the roadblocks that bureaucrats throw up to impede lawfull payment for services rendered. Cash is *ALWAYS* readily accepted. :rolleyes:


Try again.
 
And if you started using that $144,000 for income at your presumed $5000/month level it would last you 28 months after your retirement. SS is not designed to provide for *you*, but rather all those other people retiring this year - something like 1.5 or so per wage earner. You are providing, presumably, 100% of their income now, so you better get digging. You'll get yours from some poor person who is not yet born.

It's called either a Pozi scheme or pyramid scheme.
 

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