Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[Aepervius]

Creekfreak, Munns opinion (and disagreement) has been discussed out, and I am quite convinced that with many of the photographic evidence provided in this thread, Munns position that "such a suite could not be made" is not tenable at all with the argument he has given.

It will be difficult in such a case to eat one heart out.
ETA: Although.... does one want to have a diner with me ? I might want to try new exotic food. I recomend you a One way ticket...

 

[Crowlogic]

What makes the subject in the bottom photo clearly identifiable as a man in a suit?

What makes the subject in the Harley Hoffman video easily identifiable as a man in a suit?

Can you give a clear, unambiguous, detailed explanation of what makes these subjects easily identifiable as men in suits?

Someone interested in sincere critical inquiry, not scoring points, appeals to authority, appeals to ignorance, would not evade these questions.

The huge size of the hands on the Marx suit is a dead givaway. That and the posture and angle of the legs looks vaguely human (female). The ears look too big as well, reminds me of the monkey creature on the old Lost In SPace TV show. If anything the PGF hands can in some frames seems smallish. Now there is a series of frames in the PGF shortly after #352 where the palm of the left hand is clearly seen. This is best viewed in motion and shows well in the MK Davis gif. But Patty's palm has a very fleshy look about it and its far from small. It is in my opinion the most convincing or most real looking element of the PGF.

 

[clayflingythingy]

First a question for you. It's about your intriguing screenname. Are you a trapshooter?



According to BH, he rode double with Gimlin. Patterson was on Chico. There were three horses there when BH arrived:

1) Chico.
2) Whatever horse Gimlin had.
3) The packhorse (white?).

The Bigfoot suit was transported in a 'hop sack'. I suspect the wooden boxes (seen on at least two different packhorses) were used to transport plaster castings and/or fake footprint making tools.

WP,

I shoot Sporting Clays.

I AM NOT a horse person but what little knowledge I do have from being around horse people is they generally do not like riding double? I would have thought BH would have had his own horse.

I am not 100% convinced BH is the person in the suit but circumstantial evidence plus his testimony certainly makes me lean in the direction IT WAS BH.

 

[Crowlogic]

A word about Patty at faster speed. Its often stated that Patty seems to be retreating at too leasurely pase. On of the Youtube PGFs show her at a speed where she's walking at a very brisk rate. Also the camera shaking and progress across the scene seems a more normal pace for a little guy running hellbent on leather to film his subject. At this high/normal speed Patty looses some of the pondering mass we see at the slower speeds but the film gains the missing sense of urgency often brought up as unnatural. The Mk Davis gif is much slower than the real film and while providing a good view its perhaps leading some to develop a false sense of the action. At the faster speed the motion of the creature is impressive.

 

[clayflingythingy]

Has anyone on this thread actually met BG?

I am intrigued by the posts earlier that stated that at one time BG stated he may have been hoaxed by RP. I don't buy that and I wonder if that was BG's way of making a confession? When did he make, and under what circumstances, did he make the "I might have been hoaxed statement"?

IF anyone has met BG and have a measure of the man would he confess to the hoax if approached "respectfully and politely"? He is getting on in years I would assume and maybe he would want to to get the whole thing off his chest? Or is he the type of man who will take the hoax to his grave?

Heck, I would promise (with a legal contract) to not reveal the results of any interview until after his passing if that would get him to talk.

 

[SweatyYeti]

clayflingythingy wrote:

Or is he the type of man who will take the hoax to his grave?

Some PG film "fun facts"......

Roger never confessed to a hoax....all the way to his grave.

The "suit" has never appeared.

Bob Gimlin has never confessed.

No-one with ANY physical, or convincing, evidence has ever come forward to show that he was Patty.

Bob Heironimus was not Patty. (There was no way he could have worn any type of a helmet inside the suit...it simply wouldn't fit inside Patty's sharply angled head.)

It has never been proven to be a hoax.


Some PG film "fun predictions"......

Despite the film's world-wide fame, and legendary status...

No-one will ever come forward with physical evidence, or a convincing story, showing that he was in FACT Patty.

Bob Gimlin will never confess to a hoax....and neither will he ever CA$H-in with a tell-all book, detailing how the "hoax" was done. (According to the skeptics, this is because he's too thrilled with the free coffee and the friendly chit-chat he gets at the Bigfoot conventions. )

The "suit" will never appear.

It will never be proven to be a hoax.

 

[LTC8K6]

Bob Gimlin has no way to show it was a hoax as far as I can tell. If he were to claim it was a hoax, he'd have only his story, which would carry no more weight with footers than BH's story, imo.

If Bob says it's a hoax, it will have little effect on the PGF to the believers.

Bob G would have to produce the suit, or some out takes, or some other physical evidence.

Also, my guess is that even if the suit were to show up, footers would deny that it is the suit, because the PGF is of such low resolution. The actual suit will look much different in person than it does in the PGF.

It may be the case that even the skeptics would have trouble matching the actual suit to the PGF.

Of course, if we could see the actual PGF, things might change either way.

We will never be allowed to see it, though.

 

[SweatyYeti]

LTC8K6 wrote:

If Bob says it's a hoax, it will have little effect on the PGF to the believers.

Are you kidding???

If Bob Gimlin spoke at a Bigfoot convention and unexpectedly said he and Roger pulled-off a hoax, and then went on to explain, in great detail, how it was done...the people ("Bleevers" ) there would be stunned, and a bit on the distraught side....I would think.

To say that people who think the film may be legit would just shrug something like that off is absolutely ludicrous.

 

[LTC8K6]

IIRC, Gimlin told a British TV producer that Patterson could possibly have hoaxed him. Can't find the interview, though.

 

[kitakaze]

The huge size of the hands on the Marx suit is a dead givaway.

Why are you talking about the Marx suit? Did you think I was asking about the Marx suit? You didn't see the images I quoted?

Thank you for answering, though.

 

[LTC8K6]

Are you kidding???

No. Gimlin will suddenly be telling a completely different story. Even I would be doubtful about such a reversal after all this time. I would want more than just a new story before I accept such a 180 as the truth. I'm already on the side of hoax, so Gimlin's new story will be scrutinized to see if it fits.

Is Meldrum just going to drop everything because Gimlin tells a new story? Meldrum is so deep into sasquatch that he must vigorously defend his work if Gimlin makes a 180 and makes Meldrum look like an idiot.

Green refuses to admit that he was fooled by Wallace tracks in the face of overwhelming evidence. Rather than just admit that he was fooled, footers simply claim Wallace copied real tracks.

This is eactly what will happen if a suit is produced, too.

Gimlin has enough trouble with his current story, anyway. He will be unable to tell a convincing new story without physical evidence.

 

[LTC8K6]

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs7xmVBOftQ

You can see the Marx film near the end of this clip. Declared authentic by Green and Dahinden.

Another copy of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOPsb1NmRsU

 

[kitakaze]

Bob Gimlin will never confess to a hoax....and neither will he ever CA$H-in with a tell-all book, detailing how the "hoax" was done. (According to the skeptics, this is because he's too thrilled with the free coffee and the friendly chit-chat he gets at the Bigfoot conventions. )

Sweaty is not now or ever has been interested in sincere critical inquiry where the PGF is concerned. Routine mischaracterization of the arguments of skeptics is just one dart in Sweaty's quiver of lame.

Sweaty, put your hands on the keyboard right now and type the handle of the skeptic and quote where they said Gimlin won't confess "because he's too thrilled with the free coffee and the friendly chit-chat he gets at the Bigfoot conventions."

Do that right now or spare us from ever having to suffer that straw man again.

Here's what you were given as reasons why Gimlin might not confess:

Stale, over-used, poorly thought bigfoot enthusiast wishful thinking. Does not account for...

1) Pride. The concept that Gimlin would consider sticking to the story and keeping his head down preferable to the thought of taking some quick money and forever being labeled a hoaxer.

2) Loved ones. Imagine Gimlin does consider spilling the beans but a loved one such as his wife refuses to have anything to do with all the unwanted attention. To the extent that doing so would threaten the marriage. Remember, we do know that Gimlin has said his wife threatened divorce of the bigfoot shenanigans.

You fanatics are so desperate to have your fantasy beast be real that you can't be bothered to think the human explanations through. Who are the real denialists?

And no, Gimlin appearing at bigfoot conferences now and then decades later with people who call him an 'American Legend' and hold him as an icon beyond suspicion does not contradict those explanations.

One does take particular note that Heironimus actively seeks to appear with Gimlin to do interviews while Gimlin refuses. Luckily for Gimlin he has his worshippers to make excuses for him.

If I was a bigfoot proponent, I would hate, like other footers do, to have Sweaty representing me.

 

[Correa Neto]

If Bob says it's a hoax, it will have little effect on the PGF to the believers.

Depends on the footer, I guess. Most would be very disappointed by having wasted so many resources and time on it; one or two would appear really bad for using PGF as base for "scientific" works. A few perhaps would be exposed as being conivent with the hoax. I think couple of footers would say Gimlim was somehow forced by evil denialist skeptics to say it was a hoax and keep believing.

Now, if I were Gimlim, I would never confess any participation at a PGF hoax. First of all, I would have a captive friendly audience that would always give me attention; some cash can certainly be made from them, even if small. I would also find very funny how the years pass and they keep being fooled by my old prank. Not to mention I would be afraid of possible violent reactions from the part of some footers.

ETA: Kitakaze beated me -again.

The "suit" has never appeared.

So what?
Marx's suit has appeared?
I suggest you to drop such a weak line of reasoning.

Bob Heironimus was not Patty. (There was no way he could have worn any type of a helmet inside the suit...it simply wouldn't fit inside Patty's sharply angled head.)

He may not have been, but again, so what? It could have been anyone. The important point is that it is reasonable and plausible to suppose it was a human in a gorilla bigfoot costume.
The "the head won't fit" claim has been more than once shown to have no visible means of support. Just like many other claims regarding bigfoot.

That's it. Patty is the The Bluff Creek Whore. It has no visible means of support. My apologies to WWII aviation fans.

It has never been proven to be a hoax.

So what?
It has never been proven NOT to be a hoax. Not to mention the evidences and reasonings pointing towards a hoax are (at least in my opinion) much stronger than those pointing not to be a hoax. Its more reasonable and plausible to consider it a hoax then a real bigfoot.

This is another weak line of reasoning which must be dropped, its just another dead end.

 

[SweatyYeti]

kitakaze wrote:

Sweaty, put your hands on the keyboard right now and type the handle of the skeptic and quote where they said Gimlin won't confess "because he's too thrilled with the free coffee and the friendly chit-chat he gets at the Bigfoot conventions."

Do that right now or spare us from ever having to suffer that straw man again.

Mad Hom said that, effectively, in one of his posts.

 

[William Parcher]

I AM NOT a horse person but what little knowledge I do have from being around horse people is they generally do not like riding double? I would have thought BH would have had his own horse.

I am not 100% convinced BH is the person in the suit but circumstantial evidence plus his testimony certainly makes me lean in the direction IT WAS BH.

Given the way that BH tells his story, he had no choice other than to ride double with someone.

All three of these guys lived in the Yakima, Washington area. Bob Gimlin had a covered one-ton truck that he used to haul the horses. P&G borrowed Chico from BH a number of days in advance of the Patty filming. They arrived at Bluff Creek, California on a Sunday with the three horses. BH had a hotrod car (probably his Corvette), so he borrowed his mother's car to make the trip down to California. He arrived in the Bluff Creek area on a Wednesday (three days after P&G). P&G made efforts to not be seen driving away with BH from the nearby town where they met up with him (presumably to give him detailed directions to Louse Camp). When BH arrived at LC, they all proceeded to cover (hide) his car with brush so that it would not be seen near their camp. They stayed the night (Weds) in camp and set out the next day (Thurs) on horseback to the filming site.

The packhorse carried the suit and other gear. BH had to ride double for the 2-3 mile journey from the camp to the Patty walk theater (sandbar). BH was prepared to leave the area (go back to Yakima) immediately after the filming. He was instructed by Patterson to take the roll of film (which contained the Patty walk) and the suit with him (keeping it hidden). On the way out, he would stop in Eureka to mail the film to Al DeAtley. Soon after BH returned to Yakima, P&G would show up at his house to retrieve the suit and it was never seen again by Heironimus. He does not know what they did with it, nor did they tell him of their intended plans for the suit after that.

 

[SweatyYeti]

Correa Neto wrote:

The "the head won't fit" claim has been more than once shown to have no visible means of support.

A human head...with a helmet on....would not fit into the space provided by Patty's sharply angled head. And a human head, without a helmet, would be...at best...a tight fit.

 

[LTC8K6]

A human head...with a helmet on....would not fit into the space provided by Patty's sharply angled head. And a human head, without a helmet, would be...at best...a tight fit.

Any evidence to support these claims? Other than crude superimpositions on what may be a costume head, I mean.

 

[kitakaze]

Mad Hom said that, effectively, in one of his posts.

I said quote it but I won't ask you to, Sweaty, because I vaguely remember him saying something to that effect. I know his sense of humour and I'm pretty sure he was only being humourous but even if he wasn't that doesn't make the following statement accurate:

According to the skeptics, this is because he's too thrilled with the free coffee and the friendly chit-chat he gets at the Bigfoot conventions.

Maybe 'according to a skeptic' or 'according to Mad Hom' but this is Thunderdome, buddy, and you don't go attributing silly arguments collectively, especially when you know you've been addressed directly and seriously about your inability to reason why Gimlin wouldn't confess after all this time.

Addendum:

Oh, wait. Here's that Mad Hom quote:

I've never bought into the Gimlin was duped BS....I've felt for a long while that for this hoax to work Gimlin had to be a part of it.

Tru-Bleever just loves to query as to why a person would hold onto a lie for so long...I'd respond by saying it's been a long time...I'm sure Gimlin has quite a few NEW friends and neighbors...if tomorrow he says..."Yep...it's all crap....I was lying...Roger made it up" He risks being ostracized by everyone who knows him as it would be all over the interweb and everyone even his third cousins twice removed would know that Uncle Bob was a dirty stinking liar....if he keeps up the lie...everyone loves him....especially Bigfoot Fan...and he can continue getting free coffee and danishs at all the Bigfeetsus symposiums.

There's you having a selective attention span and disregarding a legitimate points he made, taking a joke he made at the end, and arbitrarily attributing it to us collectively as a serious argument.

Yeah, that would be typical behaviour of a guy that's more interested in trying to score points on skeptics than sincerely consider and address their arguments.