ZEITGEIST, The Movie

Er, GreNME, you may want to check your quote tags. The last two comments were from regan, not default.

You're right. Totally my mistake. I can't seem to go back and edit it. If the mods would be so kind I would be appreciative. I wouldn't want to misrepresent default due to my absent-minded-ness.

TSE: Jan has already made it clear he doesn't want to discuss anything, he wants to preach and he wants people to treat him like some teacher or guru. If he thinks he can bait me into a flame war he's barking up the wrong tree. He's perfectly welcome to his opinions, whether they be based in fact or not. If he wants to actually debate me at a location that is neither his domain nor mine, he knows where to find me and a moderated thread can probably be arranged. Otherwise, he just seems to be wanting to talk smack to look cool in front of his 'fans'. The only thing I would point out is that his habit of suppressing any ideas that don't line up with his is remarkably similar to the way the groups he condemns and the political entities he bashes behave (or behaved).
 
Do you have proof of such an assertion, or is this all based on a feeling? Most evidence in the public domain seems to indicate that out Bumbler-In-Chief and his Veep had some seriously naive and hopelessly incorrect impressions on how things would go, which has so far turned out to be tragically incorrect. If you actually have evidence to the contrary and not just some gut-filled conspiracy reasoning behind that claim, I'd sure like to know. And while you're at it, I'd like to know why you haven't brought this evidence up to any federal prosecutors (not all of them are Republicans, you know).


There is proof actually. There is a youtube video floating around where Cheney states (in 1994?) that invading Iraq would be a quagmire and not worth very many American lives to do so. I cannot post youtube links @ work...but its there.
 
Sorry to others that weren't there, but I had to share it in the context of this thread since this is where it began.

Just for laughs:


the context:
I have lost my moderator status because I moved a thread to a pseudoscience section. That thread was about giving LSD to children or some such nonsense, and it being a cure for schizophrenia...

I know, it's totally unrelated, but if anyone is really in need of a good read, go check out this thread:
http://www.gnosticmedia.com/communion/viewtopic.php?t=3466

This is where GreNME sticks it to the man over zeitgeist...and then gets banned for it...

I asked Jan what thread he is talking about. So far I haven't heard.

I've said it once and I'll say it again GrenME totally owned Jan in this thread and he knows it). That is why you were banned. What a shame! :confused:

I would love to see a debate with Murduch or Jan vs. GrenME!
 
There is proof actually. There is a youtube video floating around where Cheney states (in 1994?) that invading Iraq would be a quagmire and not worth very many American lives to do so. I cannot post youtube links @ work...but its there.
When will troothbots learn that quotes do not = proof (or evidence)? Opinions can change. People can say things without knowing all the facts. Stop using conjecture to support your preconceived notions, and for god's sake stop throwing the words fact, evidence, and truth around when they don't apply. You're diluting their meaning.
 
There is proof actually. There is a youtube video floating around where Cheney states (in 1994?) that invading Iraq would be a quagmire and not worth very many American lives to do so. I cannot post youtube links @ work...but its there.

That actually strengthens the case of Dubya's stupidity, actually. I think it's well understood that Cheney will change his lie to suit whatever environment he's in, sort of like a scumball-chameleon. Remember the context: in 1994 he was lying to make excuses for Bush Sr. not finishing what he started (and yes, H.W. Bush told Shia Iraqis to rise up against Saddam and the US would help in a very Bay of Pigs fashion). Ten years later, he's lying to make excuses for why Dubya went balls-out. It's highly unlikely the man honestly has any conviction one way or the other, because he doesn't tend to behave (politically and personally) like he has much regard for life outside of his own.

So, what it proves is Cheney is willing to tell opposite lies without any consideration of mutual exclusivity. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone around here who doesn't generally consider Cheney a lying scumball. He is to the Republican Party what Darth Vader was to the Empire: he's on their side, yet they don't really trust him, but they dare not speak out openly against him lest they suffer his swift and deadly wrath. 'You underestimate the power of Executive Privilege, general.'

What is fairly well known, however, is that Cheney would (and kinda still does) keep right on pounding with the same military goals he and Rumsfeld seemed to share about the US Armed Forces-- one that relies heavily on technology and the thought that striking from a distance or with surgically-maneuvered forces is what makes for efficient warfare, usually in the process foregoing tried and tested tactics of old that require more troops and less techy-stuff hanging about to get broken, stop working in bad climates, or just not be as effective as planned. Bushy, Rummy, and Cheney's failure in this regard, which is one of the things I'm calling incredibly stupid, is that they forgot some simple aspects of warfare. You don't need radios and multiple-band frequencies to direct your troops through a battlefield, you just need sufficient familiarity with the terrain and enough pre-agreed signals for change in tactics as the fight progresses. The idiot brigade allowed the military to organize and conduct the initial invasion (of both Iraq and Afghanistan) according to their tried and true techniques, but then pulled the rug out from underneath many soldiers quickly by pulling huge numbers of troops back when the enemy was on the run. Whether you agree with the reasons for the war or not, the fact is that our military forces showed just how effective they could be during the invasions, and our leaders showed just how stupid they could be by hamstringing our forces when they should have allowed them to secure the places they took first. The casualties from the low-tech and scattered insurgencies didn't happen until after the initial invasion rush, which is a good indicator of stupidity and not wanton desire to force a quagmire.

But don't take my word for it. Go google the name "General Van Riper" and "wargames" to see for yourself. Here is one good example of career military pointing out to the administration that their love affair with high-tech was going to be problematic. When Rumsfeld finally resigned loads of career military breathed a collective sigh of relief (though things didn't necessarily get better, but that's more the conductors' of the Stupid Train's fault).

This is why I repeatedly bring up Hanlon's Razor, HH. If you really want to find yourself a conspiracy, there's a great, huge, gaping conspiracy of stupid that can be found, but you're going to be disappointed when you don't find some evil geniuses orchestrating everything, only to find a few draft-dodgers and their gung-ho buddies who have had their heads so far up their rectums that they could see what they had for lunch that day. You'll see a bunch of soldiers busting their humps to try to match up to impossible standards of a few overgrown children who can't strategize their way out of their own continued blunders, let alone lead some vast conspiracy of NWO shadowmen into some form of global domination.

To be honest, I find that to be even more tragic.
 
Oh, and yes: I had the hyperbole turned up to about nine on that last post. The point is that stupidity trumps malevolence almost every time, and certainly seems to be a hallmark behind the most recent conspiracy theories of the last decade.
 
TSE: Jan has already made it clear he doesn't want to discuss anything, he wants to preach and he wants people to treat him like some teacher or guru. If he thinks he can bait me into a flame war he's barking up the wrong tree. He's perfectly welcome to his opinions, whether they be based in fact or not. If he wants to actually debate me at a location that is neither his domain nor mine, he knows where to find me and a moderated thread can probably be arranged. Otherwise, he just seems to be wanting to talk smack to look cool in front of his 'fans'. The only thing I would point out is that his habit of suppressing any ideas that don't line up with his is remarkably similar to the way the groups he condemns and the political entities he bashes behave (or behaved).

I think you are probably right....I don't think he is consciously aware that he is doing it though. He hates you because you made him look stupid in an area of research that he thinks he owns on a forum that he runs. I doubt he is trying to bait you into a flame war, he is just very vocal about you not being smart, just articulate, and blah blah blah...you have heard it all already. He likes to bring it up and rub my nose in it whenever he feels his authority being challenged. The thread is still there though, and people will read it. I think you portaryed the facts well, and that alone will be the impact when others read it...the irony is that he actually thinks he "won" that debate like it was some kind of contest.
 
I think you are probably right....I don't think he is consciously aware that he is doing it though. He hates you because you made him look stupid in an area of research that he thinks he owns on a forum that he runs. I doubt he is trying to bait you into a flame war, he is just very vocal about you not being smart, just articulate, and blah blah blah...you have heard it all already. He likes to bring it up and rub my nose in it whenever he feels his authority being challenged. The thread is still there though, and people will read it. I think you portaryed the facts well, and that alone will be the impact when others read it...the irony is that he actually thinks he "won" that debate like it was some kind of contest.

You ever see Kung Pow: Enter the Fist? Do you remember Wimp Lo in that film? Yeah... you make the connection. ;)
 
the context:
I have lost my moderator status because I moved a thread to a pseudoscience section. That thread was about giving LSD to children or some such nonsense, and it being a cure for schizophrenia...

I know, it's totally unrelated, but if anyone is really in need of a good read, go check out this thread:
http://www.gnosticmedia.com/communion/viewtopic.php?t=3466

This is where GreNME sticks it to the man over zeitgeist...and then gets banned for it...

Hi TSE,

I wouldn't worry too much. Gnostic Media doesn't seem to get much action on the discussion front, though I like the idea. Were you busy there as a moderator? I see, checking your link, that Jan has posted again about Epiphanius, though he's keeping the Zeitgeist thread locked.

Meanwhile, Zeitgeist seems to go from strength to strength. I imagine it will likely be the most watched internet movie in history soon. Good stuff!

Nick
 
Damn, he almost gets close in so many ways, and goes so far into left field with it he gets ridiculous.

Hi GreNME,

But what do you think of the idea that Horus does considerably change over the period from the Egypt of the Pharoahs to the Egypt of the Ptolemies?

And that the former great variety of forms that the myths appeared to take seemed to coalesce into one, fairly coherent monotheistic form over the same period?

Nick
 
Hi GreNME,

But what do you think of the idea that Horus does considerably change over the period from the Egypt of the Pharoahs to the Egypt of the Ptolemies?

It's a novel idea, but it's not supported by evidence. Horus remained a figure that pretty much represented both the times of the Egyptian pharaohs during pre-Greek times and later represented leadership to the people, a sort of superhero who used to deal with people directly through the pharaoh. He never really stopped being that, even when the Egyptians were subjugated later. Once beaten, the Egyptians were fairly open and welcoming as a whole (though individual arguments could be made), which is why we see Hellenistic characters and Hellenized forms of Egyptian myths showing up in the last few hundred years BCE.

And that the former great variety of forms that the myths appeared to take seemed to coalesce into one, fairly coherent monotheistic form over the same period?

Once again, while it's a nice idea, there really isn't sufficient evidence to back such an idea up. Even in the first couple centuries CE, there were literally dozens of variations of gods and god-men, some similar to the story of Jesus in that there were claims of a real person, and others (like the Mithraic cult) who consistently kept their deity in the form of a myth who they made covenants (pacts) with. The early proponents of the Christian doctrines fashioned the beliefs into a sort of swiss army knife of theology that managed to appeal to more people faster than others, and it overtook the rest as a de facto standard. That isn't to say there wasn't some deliberate violence or cruelty on the part of some early versions of the Christian church-- the suppression of deviation and the destruction of other religious writings and property shows that pretty well-- but that's not evidence of coalescing mythlogy as much as it is evidence that highly-charged piety can often have devastating and disasterous results.
 
quixotecoyote, thank you for taking the time to write that letter. Will you let us know if/when you get a response? Would you post the name of the university in case anyone else wants to express their concerns?

The response:

Hi
,

I'm sorry that we disappointed you. Since we got the rights to screen this film for free, it seemed inadvisable to NOT take advantage of this opportunity. Keep in mind that although we are showing this film, it does not mean that SAC supports the views espoused by the film. It was requested by a group of students. Please do come to this film so you can contribute to the dialogue following the screening. If you would like to have more of a say in what activities we put on please swing by our meetings @4 every Tuesday in PSU313.


Also, SAC will be sponsoring a Poetry Slam featuring Shihan as well as some local talent (http://www.myspace.com/shihanthepoet) this Wednesday @7pm in PSU Ballroom West. Free coffee and drinks as well.
We value your opinions and input. Keep it coming,


[that guy] Missouri State University
Student Activities Council>University Events Chair


If I have time I'll work up a viewers guide to distribute, but I probably won't with so many papers to write and research to do. Any help would be appreciated.
 
If I have time I'll work up a viewers guide to distribute, but I probably won't with so many papers to write and research to do. Any help would be appreciated.

Working on it. :)

Parts II and III are going to be more difficult, because there aren't transcripts of them, and apparently Peter Joseph is too busy out campaigning his film and doing public events to finish what he started. I do have the things like the Federal Reserve link up and I'm trying to get as much stuff categorized and collected for presentation. There's a lot of information out there, though, and aside from just giving a whole boatload of links with no explanation and exposition it's definitely something that's a huge undertaking.

I've thought of asking Gravy if I can copy some of his stuff for redundancy, but then decided not to-- not because of copyright, because I'd be asking permission, but because I want to frame in a way geared toward the presentation I'm addressing in the first place. I'll definitely be using inspiration from his and similar works on the 9/11 related stuff, but just copying what he's written already isn't necessarily going to work.
 
Working on it. :)

Parts II and III are going to be more difficult, because there aren't transcripts of them, and apparently Peter Joseph is too busy out campaigning his film and doing public events to finish what he started. I do have the things like the Federal Reserve link up and I'm trying to get as much stuff categorized and collected for presentation. There's a lot of information out there, though, and aside from just giving a whole boatload of links with no explanation and exposition it's definitely something that's a huge undertaking.

I've thought of asking Gravy if I can copy some of his stuff for redundancy, but then decided not to-- not because of copyright, because I'd be asking permission, but because I want to frame in a way geared toward the presentation I'm addressing in the first place. I'll definitely be using inspiration from his and similar works on the 9/11 related stuff, but just copying what he's written already isn't necessarily going to work.

I had actually seen your site and I think you're doing a wonderful job. Unfortunately your site doesn't work very well if you aren't on the internet. I''m thinking something more like the Loose Change Viewers Guide with a line by line (or point by point more likely) description you could read while you're watching the film.
 
What about the printable version links at the top of the pages?

If PJ would be so kind as to provide a transcript for the whole thing, then maybe I could oblige. However, since he's not actually there to do a real point-counterpoint I'm reticent to create such a document. It seems somewhat disingenuous (at best) to play it that way when providing a rebutting document that addresses the work as a whole instead of sentence-by-sentence is possible.
 
What about the printable version links at the top of the pages?

If PJ would be so kind as to provide a transcript for the whole thing, then maybe I could oblige. However, since he's not actually there to do a real point-counterpoint I'm reticent to create such a document. It seems somewhat disingenuous (at best) to play it that way when providing a rebutting document that addresses the work as a whole instead of sentence-by-sentence is possible.

I'm not saying you should do it. You have your own ideas, your own plans, and I wouldn't dream of suggesting you change your vision. What I'm saying is that when distribute literature prior to a screening of the film, something they could follow along with would be much more accessible. If I have time Friday and this weekend (and I may since I'm slightly ahead on my workload) I'll <groan> watch through and glean the major points of each section without sweating the minor claims. Once I get the pins set up I can start knocking them down. If the central points he spends the most time on are taken down, only the people who would believe no matter what will trust the side points.
 
If you do that could you share with me the pins you get all lined up? I can even help out by doing Part I for you if you want (since I already have most of the refutations put together).
 

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