This is the Government that You Want to Run Health-care?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

How dare you tell us this system is substandard!

How dare you participate in a thread about the American system, espouse the benefits of the UK system, and become offended when your system is critiqued.


Why is it that you become upset when your system is critiqued while you are in the process of critiquing another system?

 

[Fitter]

I do not have a waiting list where I live.

Are you getting it yet?

And how did your hip replacement go? Back to walking again, physiotherapy worked out all right then?
What do you do for a living that you know all about waiting lists for the multitude of medical procedures out there?

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

And how did your hip replacement go? Back to walking again, physiotherapy worked out all right then?
What do you do for a living that you know all about waiting lists for the multitude of medical procedures out there?

Right. Unless I have had a hip replacement or participate in hip replacement surgery I am to be discounted. The facts matter not.




Are you sure your in the correct forum?

 

[Grasshopper]

As a newbie here, may I have the audacity to suggest a way to weigh the benefits of each type of system? I'll admit my conclusions here are from memory, years of reporting on this and related issues, and being married to a woman who is intimately involved in the health-care issue, and at this point I won't provide links.

Based on the studies I've read, I've concluded that:
1. If you want to solve the high cost of health care, eliminate insurance. Then you'll introduce true free enterprise into the equation and return to the days when doctors didn't have access to good science and bartered health care for chickens and other goods. That's when truly rich could get what care they want and, although perhaps not supported by government-funded science and, if the doctors had time, others could, too.
2. If you want to solve the problem of access, implement socialized medicine or some version of it. That'll mean that somebody -- possibly government -- will decide whether the care you want is worth it, but at least you'll be guaranteed some care based on what the system (like it or not) decides is worth it.
3. If you want to solve the problem of the drag on the economy, perhaps you're screwed. Socialized medicine seems to be less expensive, in terms of percentage of GDP, but free enterprise currently is the flavor of the day and creates a lot of wealth in the health-care industry.

Personally, I went through a big change in attitude as a newspaper reporter covering companies from Finland who were negotiating union contracts in Minnesota. Basically, the companies said they couldn't afford to pay wages in Minnesota that were comparable to Finnish wages because health-care and retirement costs were too high here. Those same costs were socialized in Finland. In fact, an economist for a major international bank pointed out that health-care costs in the United States were putting us at a competitive disadvantage -- even with other highly industrialized countries.

That says to me that we're at a competitive disadvantage with countries that recognize that such costs are more efficient when socialized.

Personally, I'd like to believe otherwise. Can anybody provide evidence otherwise?

 

[Fitter]

Right. Unless I have had a hip replacement or participate in hip replacement surgery I am to be discounted. The facts matter not.




Are you sure your in the correct forum?

You haven't presented any facts, you've made a statement. My father is a registered visitor for patients who've had ostomy surgery. The surgeons call him at home and tell him that someone has had or will be having this type of surgery and could he please drop by and help them with any questions they may have about post-operative lifestyle changes. I would classify him as very knowledgeable about ostomy surgery and waiting lists for them in his area. I highly suspect he doesn't have a clue about waiting lists for corneal transplants. You come on to this forum and make a broad all-knowing statement like that I have to assume that you either work in the medical field or that you are full of it. Guess which one I suspect?

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

You haven't presented any facts, you've made a statement. My father is a registered visitor for patients who've had ostomy surgery. The surgeons call him at home and tell him that someone has had or will be having this type of surgery and could he please drop by and help them with any questions they may have about post-operative lifestyle changes. I would classify him as very knowledgeable about ostomy surgery and waiting lists for them in his area. I highly suspect he doesn't have a clue about waiting lists for corneal transplants. You come on to this forum and make a broad all-knowing statement like that I have to assume that you either work in the medical field or that you are full of it. Guess which one I suspect?

Ask your father how many in America are waiting in queue for surgery.

 

[volatile]

Ask your father how many in America are waiting in queue for surgery.

And ask him how many are struggling with debts or chronic illnesses because they can't afford treatment or insurance, and ask him how many people in America develop major problems because they avoid going to the doctor whilst its still minor.

Ten Reasons America Healthcare is so Bad: http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=ten_reasons_why_american_health_care_is_so_bad

"Our wait times are low because many of us aren't getting care at all. It's true, Americans do have short waits for non-elective surgeries. Only 4 percent of us wait more than six months. That's more than in Germany and the Netherlands, but considerably less than the Canadians (14 percent) or the Britons (15 percent). But our high performance on the waiting times only account for individuals who get the care they need. Our advantage dissipates when you see the next question, which asks how many patients skip care due to cost. And here, America is far worse than anywhere else."

You'll note, of course, that the German and Dutch systems, nationalised healthcare both, are even better than you.

Look J - in the UK we pay less per head in GDP than Americans do for Medicare, but we all get manifestly better healthcare. How is that so hard to understand?

 

[Fitter]

Ask your father how many in America are waiting in queue for surgery.

Hey you got it. He's not an expert on surgeries outside his area. He wouldn't offer a WAG just so he could think he put the smackdown on somebody on an internet forum. You've made the claim that there is no one waiting for medical treatment in your area now please provide some proof of this.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Hey you got it. He's not an expert on surgeries outside his area. He wouldn't offer a WAG just so he could think he put the smackdown on somebody on an internet forum. You've made the claim that there is no one waiting for medical treatment in your area now please provide some proof of this.

You claimed to have the information which refutes my statement. Why are you declining to present it?


Is your claim false?

 

[Fitter]

You claimed to have the information which refutes my statement. Why are you declining to present it?


Is your claim false?

Could you please show me where I made this claim because I certainly don't remember making it.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Ten Reasons America Healthcare is so Bad: http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=ten_reasons_why_american_health_care_is_so_bad

Your opinion piece evidences what? Someones opinion.

Look J - in the UK we pay less per head in GDP than Americans do for Medicare, but we all get manifestly better healthcare. How is that so hard to understand?

I have asked a couple of times now why are people trying to compare government health-care to government health-care.

This is not my argument.

I am not arguing for government health-care.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Could you please show me where I made this claim because I certainly don't remember making it.

You are tedious.

 

[Fitter]

You are tedious.

So I didn't make the claim you suggested?

 

[jimbob]

Why do you keep attempting to compare a government system to another government system?

I am arguing against government systems.

Sorry, I thought hoped you shared the assumption that even poor people should get healthcare.

 

[jimbob]

Why do you keep attempting to compare a government system to another government system?

I am arguing against government systems.

The poorest, by definition, won't be able to pay for their healthcare, so a safety net is needed. At the moment the safety net in the US has lots of holes and is called medicaid.

Who will pay for the safety net? Religious orders used to do a lot of this in the medieval period. Of course, then medical care was pretty cheap as care only consisted of first-aid, herbal remedies, and care that was provided by unpaid workers.

No, gnome. We've been through all this. The rights you have are the rights granted to you by the society in which you live. Thus, I have a right to free health care, while you do not. Children in my country have the right to free education up to the end of secondary school. This does not apply in all other countries.

One must understand that if one allows the majority to determine ones rights that society may take ones life as the majority can deem ones life a burden to society.


It is easy to agree with society when one thinks society is providing one with some benefit that one thinks is greater than one can achieve on ones own.

People tend to forget what happens when society changes its mind.

One must understand that if one allows the majority to determine ones rights that society may take ones life as the majority can deem ones life a burden to society.

I have just found a signature.

So, what "rights" do you have, why do you think that you have these rights, and more importantly, how do you attempt to enforce these rights if someone tries to violate them?

Please link to your answer on the "rights" thread.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Think I agree. Sigged.

 

[pbergeron]

...

The Social Security Administration has the ability and right to take money from your bank account!


...

Hmmm... here's what I found on the ssa dot gov web-site regarding the matter:

How to Report a Death

A family member or other person responsible for the beneficiary's affairs should do the following:

Promptly notify Social Security of the beneficiary's death by calling SSA toll-free at 1-800-772-1213. (TTY 1-800-325-0778.)

If monthly benefits were being paid via direct deposit, notify the bank or other financial institution of the beneficiary's death. Request that any funds received for the month of death and later be returned to Social Security as soon as possible.

If benefits were being paid by check, DO NOT CASH any checks received for the month in which the beneficiary died or thereafter. Return the checks to Social Security as soon as possible.

Point #2 seems as though it is the responsibility of someone acting on behalf of the deceased recipient to report the death and to request funds be moved back to SSA. This is somewhat different than what the article seems to imply, because at no point does the SSA seem to have any control over the process other than to request refund. Somewhat misleading.

Having said that though, we need to do away with SSA. At the very least, I should be able to opt out, which by law I cannot. Let me get this straight, I can put in ~$300 / month * 12 * (~40 yrs) = $144,000 for a lifetime, die 1 year after retiring and the remainder goes back to the gov't??? At least with private savings and other retirement mechanisms, I could liquidate and give everything to my kids. Please tell me I am misinformed.

I also see much talk of the insurance companies being responsible for the high costs of health care, but are not doctor's responsible as well? I say this because I was going to have a procedure performed about a month ago and the difference in costs for the surgery between me being insured and not insured was about $10K ... 10K difference for a $6000 surgery. Uhhh, is someone trying to take advantage of insurance or am I again mistaken?

 

[Rolfe]

I do not have a waiting list where I live.

Are you getting it yet?

You might have one helluva wait if you didn't have the money.

Are you getting it yet?

A wait of a few weeks, for guaranteed treatment without the word "money" even passing anyone's lips? Are you in that big a hurry?

Look J - in the UK we pay less per head in GDP than Americans do for Medicare, but we all get manifestly better healthcare. How is that so hard to understand?

Are you getting it yet?

And I note you completely ignored the information about the world first with the Berlin heart and the girl with the congenital three-chambered heart. Could any private system have done any better?

Are you getting it yet?

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

One must understand that if one allows the majority to determine ones rights that society may take ones life as the majority can deem ones life a burden to society.

It is easy to agree with society when one thinks society is providing one with some benefit that one thinks is greater than one can achieve on ones own.

People tend to forget what happens when society changes its mind.

I take it then that you simply dictate what "rights" you have, and then.... Oh noes, society still might do what the hell it likes if it doesn't agree with you.

Silly me, I thought the whole point of society was that it provides all of us with benefits that are greater than what we can achieve on our own. Do explain my error. If you can.

You know, every time you try to formulate this nonsensical belief system you have about rights, the less rational it sounds. And Gnome, when a theist starts saying things like that to you, you're in trouble.

And consider. Several times now you have tried to defend this superstitious nonsense by declaring that if your belief system is not true, then all sorts of bad consequences will flow.

News flash. Reality is the way it is, regardless of whether or not you happen to like the consequences.

Rolfe.

 

[skeptical]

Your opinion piece evidences what? Someones opinion.

Even opinion pieces can have facts. It is a fact that one of the reasons that the wait times in the US are low is because some people cannot afford the care they need AT ALL, so they never get it. You don't put yourself on a wait list if you cannot afford it in the first place. That skews the results for the US wait time.

This is a simple fact. Just because you may not like it doesn't magically transform it into an opinion.

I am not arguing for government health-care.

Quite right, you are arguing for a complete free market system. Under such a system, it is indisputable that a large number of people would not be able to afford medical care or would be denied insurance for pre-existing conditions and they would die or suffer with their ills in silence. Of course, such a system would be cheaper to individuals who are healthy and never have any major medical issues. So, such a system is best if you are ONLY trying to minimize the individual costs to individual members of a society.

The real question is one of values. If you value ensuring basic care to every citizen, then the free market approach cannot work. If you value minimizing your individual costs, then a free market approach might work.

I will repeat the question I posed in post #62: Isn't paying a little more money worth it to know no one you know or care about will ever be denied medical treatment because they cannot pay for it?