Thunderbolts of the Gods

David, quite trying to defend the Big Bang by trying to connect me to creationism and Karl Rove. I've said NOTHING about creationism on this or any forum and very little about Rove in the many years I've been posting. Your repeated attempts to use those two to attack me actually just suggests a serious weakness in your defense of Big Bang against the many facts I've offered. Your time would be much better spent finding a peer reviewed article that directly disputes the work of Peratt. But then you can't do that, can you, because there are no peer reviewed articles disputing that work. For that matter, I don't think you can find any book or article written by a mainstream astrophysicist that directly mentions Peratt's work and says why it's wrong. That's pretty telling if you ask me. :D
If you posting about this theory then you can not disassociate yourself from creationism. The person who came up with this theory made the association.
These are all peer-reviewed and cover four decades.
And at least one of those peer reviewed articles mentions creationism.:) It actually is pretty dam telling as to the only papers ever published isn't even in the right field.
 
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If you posting about this theory then you can not disassociate yourself from creationism.

Don't you think it would be more effective to find a peer reviewed article that directly disputes the work that Peratt did on galaxy rotation curves? Rather than engaging in specious arguments? What's the problem, technoextreme? Can't you find one? Not even ONE? :D
 
ROTFLOL! Have you come up with any peer reviewed articles that specifically dispute the peer reviewed assertions of Dr Peratt, David? NO? :D



David, quite trying to defend the Big Bang by trying to connect me to creationism and Karl Rove. I've said NOTHING about creationism on this or any forum and very little about Rove in the many years I've been posting. Your repeated attempts to use those two to attack me actually just suggests a serious weakness in your defense of Big Bang against the many facts I've offered. Your time would be much better spent finding a peer reviewed article that directly disputes the work of Peratt. But then you can't do that, can you, because there are no peer reviewed articles disputing that work. For that matter, I don't think you can find any book or article written by a mainstream astrophysicist that directly mentions Peratt's work and says why it's wrong. That's pretty telling if you ask me. :D



David, that's an outright lie as anyone who reads the threads I've participated in on this (and other subjects) will see. I actually spent a lot of time responding directly to your questions and posts until I realized that nothing I was posting was getting through ... that you weren't really trying to understand plasma cosmology/electric universe theories ... that you were resorting to exactly the sort of tactics you just demonstrated in your post ... and that YOU were not answering the questions that I asked. So I simply quite interacting with you. I know that hurt your feelings. Sorry. :D


Direct questions you haven't answered;

1. Where do elements past iron on the periodic table come from?
2. There is evidence from alpha-lyman lines which might indicate that QSOs are at a greater distance than suggested by Arp. Why not talk about it?
3. You continue to state that QSOs are 'proven','proved' to be associated with Arp catalogue objects. You have yet to address optical alitgnment and statistical issues in those conclusion. Yet you continue to insist that they are 'proven'.
4. There is some confusion in your presentation of the electric sun model:
-1. Does the energy of the sun come from the electric current flow? If so why doesn't the -sun explode? And please don't start confusing protons and photons again.
-2. Or do you now say that the sun is powered by a z-pinch in the upper layers?
-3. Recently I think I saw you say that the sun's electrical flow light be from one negatively charged area to another negatively charged area?

There are about 10 others that have been asked of you at other times but you will not answer as well.

A new one:

If the galaxy has stars rotating as discussed by Peratt(which you knew so well you kept mis-spelling his name)
1. Does the magneto effect require there be a mass in the inner core that is equal to the mass that it is rotating in synchronization?
Or does the whole magnetic feild rotate without being dependant on the mass of the inner magnetic core?

Creationism and god of the gaps, you use the god of the gaps argument aALL the tiem BAC.

Karl Rove and creationsim: you use appeals to emotion and can't support your argument when it comes to the math.

Karl Rove: you kept bringing up a mistake Ziggy made repeatedly, depite the fact that he admitted it.
 
Don't you think it would be more effective to find a peer reviewed article that directly disputes the work that Peratt did on galaxy rotation curves? Rather than engaging in specious arguments? What's the problem, technoextreme? Can't you find one? Not even ONE? :D


Where is your evidence for the magnetic fields of the magnitude that his model would require?
And does the inner core generating the magnetic field have to have the same mass as the stars it is moving?
If there are no black holes (another gnome) then where would that mass come from?
 
Don't you think it would be more effective to find a peer reviewed article that directly disputes the work that Peratt did on galaxy rotation curves? Rather than engaging in specious arguments? What's the problem, technoextreme? Can't you find one? Not even ONE? :D
It's not a specious argument. Engineering is not physics. I sure as hell know we are not qualified because Im an engineer. You apparently don't.
 
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1. Where do elements past iron on the periodic table come from?

Why have mainstream scientists completely ignored Peratt's work, David? You provide a reasonable answer to that question and I might be willing to discuss your question ... not that answers weren't already available on some of the sources I've linked during these discussions. :)

2. There is evidence from alpha-lyman lines which might indicate that QSOs are at a greater distance than suggested by Arp.

The mainstream just INTERPRETS alpha-lyman lines as meaning quasars are at great distance. But their cause is not at all certain.

Do you know that mainstream astrophysicists are having trouble coming up with enough neutral IGM hydrogen to explain them using their theory? http://www.spaceandmotion.com/cosmology/top-30-problems-big-bang-theory.htm "Even a small amount of diffuse neutral hydrogen would produce a smooth absorbing trough shortward of a QSO’s Lyman-alpha emission line. This is called the Gunn-Peterson effect, and is rarely seen, implying that most hydrogen in the universe has been re-ionized. A hydrogen Gunn-Peterson trough is now predicted to be present at a redshift z » 6.1. Observations of high-redshift quasars near z = 6 briefly appeared to confirm this prediction. However, a galaxy lensed by a foreground cluster has now been observed at z = 6.56, prior to the supposed reionization epoch and at a time when the Big Bang expects no galaxies to be visible yet. Moreover, if only a few galaxies had turned on by this early point, their emission would have been absorbed by the surrounding hydrogen gas, making these early galaxies invisible. So the lensed galaxy observation falsifies this prediction and the theory it was based on. Another problem example: Quasar PG 0052+251 is at the core of a normal spiral galaxy. The host galaxy appears undisturbed by the quasar radiation, which, in the Big Bang, is supposed to be strong enough to ionize the intergalactic medium." And there are other problems. The number of absorption line systems does not monotonically increase with redshift. Low-z quasars such as 3C 273 (z = 0.16) have as many absorption lines as high-z quasars. The mainstream claims that means neutral hydrogen clouds doing the absorbing are not uniformly spread through space, and are more abundant at closer distances (recent times). There are problems with that interpretation, however, compared to other observations, like those mentioned above.

Some alternative cosmologists would say that the absorption systems are due to layering in the quasar and its surrounding nebula and that no linear or monotonic relationship with redshift is to be expected. http://www.spaceandmotion.com/cosmology/top-30-problems-big-bang-theory.htm "The absorption lines of damped Lyman-alpha systems are seen in quasars. However, the HST NICMOS spectrograph has searched to see these objects directly in the infrared, but failed for the most part to detect them. Moreover, the relative abundances have surprising uniformity, unexplained in the Big Bang. The simplest explanation is that the absorbers are in the quasar’s own environment, not at their redshift distance as the Big Bang requires."

And finally, there is lots of ongoing activity to explain the observations by still other alternative means ... some apparently quite successful.

For example, consider these descriptions from a 2004 APS conference: http://www.flux.aps.org/meetings/YR04/APR04/baps/abs/S3530.html

"The Key to the Computation of the Spectra of the Quasars and Cosmic Acceleration, Jacques Moret-Bailly, Jerry Jensen, Francoise Michelot (Universite de bourgogne, Physique, Dijon France), The "Coherent Raman Effect on Incoherent Light" (CREIL), shifts the frequencies of normally incoherent light without blurring of the images or loss of order in the spectra, so that it may be confused with Doppler effects. CREIL operates in gases having quadrupolar resonances in the megahertz range. When CREIL is taken into account, the propagation of light in cosmic low pressure gases involves both absorptions and emissions in an intricate combination of frequency shifts. The propagation of light in the extended photosphere of extremely hot objects is very complex. This is because CREIL requires a Lyman excitation in atomic hydrogen to achieve hyperfine resonances in the first excited levels. A bistability emerges which chains Lyman absorptions into line patterns which coincide at discrete redshifts. Current theory predicts very bright accreting neutron stars. These should be small, very hot objects surrounded by dirty atomic hydrogen. Their spectra have exactly the characteristics of the spectra of quasars. The intrinsic redshifting of Quasars as defined by CREIL events, drastically reduces both the size and distance to quasars, and clearly identifies quasars as the missing neutron stars. A full interpretation of quasar spectra does not require jets, dark matter, variation of the fine structure constants, or a strange synthesis of iron. CREIL or CREIL-like processes may also be useful in explaining other astrophysical problems, such as redshifting proportional to the path through the corona of the Sun, and the blueshifting of radio signals from Pioneer 10 and 11." ... "The redshifted repartitioning of the spectral lines observed in the spectra of the quasars is generally considered as stochastic. However, several authors have argued a periodic redshift pattern emerges that the is an integer function of the basic redshift and z_b = 0.062. This function results from a Coherent Raman Effect in Incoherent Light (CREIL) during the propagation of quasar light in an extended halo of atomic, neutral hydrogen. CREIL computations correctly interpret quasar Lyman features without unphysical clouds or ionic winds; and does not require new spectroscopic or astrophysical parameters. The non-linearity of the combination of Lyman absorptions and coherent Raman effect explains both the observed positions of the spectral lines, their shape and their high contrast."

"Large Quasar Redshifts due to Non-Doppler, Non-Expansion Mechanism, C. F. Gallo (Superconix Inc), Quasars appear associated with gassy environments, particularly galaxies that usually exhibit smaller redshifts. The usual interpretation is that the Quasar is distant while the intervening galaxy is closer. Quasars also exhibit complex spectra, particularly the “Lyman alpha forest” of lines, again with smaller redshifts, again ascribed to closer intervening hydrogen clouds. Since the number of such absorption features increases with Z of the Quasar, this is a self-consistent picture, but not independently proven. An equally self-consistent interpretation is that the intervening gassy material PARTIALLY CAUSES the Large Quasar Redshifts via a Non-Doppler (or Non-Space Expansion) Redshift mechanism such as Raman, CREIL, Compton, Plasma or Wolf effects. This is in addition to the overall Hubble Redshift, but puts Quasars at closer distances than standard models. These Conclusions are supported by several decades of published astronomical observations which suggest that High-Z-Quasars are in close proximity to their associated Low-Z-Galaxies. Comparing Neutrino Redshifts to Photon Redshifts would yield conclusive evidence for resolving the competing models."

3. You continue to state that QSOs are 'proven','proved' to be associated with Arp catalogue objects. You have yet to address optical alitgnment and statistical issues in those conclusion.

You claim I've failed to "address optical alitgnment and statistical issues in those (sic) conclusion." ROTFLOL! David, you clearly didn't read what I posted ... again. My assertion that QSO's are associated with nearby objects in fact consists primarily of optical alignment and statistical reasons.

4. There is some confusion in your presentation of the electric sun model

I never claimed the EU theorists have a final definite model, David. I told you that a miniscule amount of research has gone into this theory compared to the Big Bang theory. But provided there is a mechanism to attract electrical energy from interstellar space to the sun, it would explain all of the observations that are still baffling mainstream theorists ... even with their zoo of magic gnomes. Many parameters are still unknown so your asking for a definitive answer at this point is disingenuous. They are unknown in part because NASA has been so focused on dark matter and the other gnomes they've not bothered to investigate anything more mundane ... anything that is contrary to those other gnomes. Heck, they won't even respond to something as clear cut as Peratt's model for galaxy rotation. So what do you expect, David?

There are about 10 others that have been asked of you at other times but you will not answer as well.

I'm perfectly content to let readers of our exchanges read them and decide for themselves who is ignoring the others questions. I don't claim to be an expert but I do think if the mainstream wishes to dismiss peer-reviewed theories published in mainstream journals they should do so formally in peer reviewed articles. Not send you out to do it for them like this. :D

If the galaxy has stars rotating as discussed by Peratt(which you knew so well you kept mis-spelling his name)

Come on David ... provide a peer reviewed article challenging Peratt's work. Can you do it or not? Can you provide ANY publish article, paper, or statement to the media by ANY mainstream astrophysicist that specifically mentions Peratt's work and states specifically why it is wrong? No? Why must we take your word for anything in this matter, David? Is science now to be conducted on internet forums like this where posers like you get to make the decisions instead of via peer reviewed work published in scientific journals? :D
 
Where is your evidence for the magnetic fields of the magnitude that his model would require?

And what is the magnitude of the magnetic field Peratt's model would require, David? Can you tell us that? If that's a valid reason for dismissing the theory, then why hasn't even ONE mainstream astrophysicist pointed that out in writing in any peer reviewed forum? Why can't I find ANY article (peer reviewed or not) in ANY mainstream media outlet stating that?

And does the inner core generating the magnetic field have to have the same mass as the stars it is moving?

I think you just demonstrated that you haven't a clue what Peratt's model entails. You still haven't bothered to read the various links I've provided, David? You see, this is why I decided it was a waste of time to converse with you. Time to put you back on ignore? :D
 
It's not a specious argument.

You can't find even ONE, technoextreme? :D

And by the way, Anthony Peratt has a PhD in ... guess what? ... electrical engineering. And he has a host of other credentials too. You going to simply dismiss his work by calling him a creationist too? Hmmmmm? :D
 
And what is the magnitude of the magnetic field Peratt's model would require, David? Can you tell us that?

I already went through this in another thread. The proposed galactic magnetic field is too small by about 20 orders of magnitude to provide a noticeable force on a star like our sun. That's not a factor of 20, but a factor of 1020.
 
It's not a specious argument. Engineering is not physics. I sure as hell know we are not qualified because Im an engineer. You apparently don't.

The reason there are no articles disputing this stuff is the same as the reason there are no articles demonstrating that the gravitational effects of the stars making up the constellations are too weak to affect anyone's personality.
 
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I already went through this in another thread. The proposed galactic magnetic field is too small by about 20 orders of magnitude to provide a noticeable force on a star like our sun. That's not a factor of 20, but a factor of 1020.
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It is quite possible that your own model may come up with a different result, but reading through one of Peratt's papers, he says that his model uses "galactic magnetic field with field strengths reaching 2 x 10-4 G", noting that ".. at the galactic center (fields as high as 10-2 G can occur in concentrated regions)."
  • Ref: Peratt, Anthony L. "Evolution of the plasma universe. II - The formation of systems of galaxies", IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science (ISSN 0093-3813), vol. PS-14, Dec. 1986, p. 763-778. (Abstract) (Full text, PDF)
 
It is quite possible that your own model may come up with a different result, but reading through one of Peratt's papers, he says that his model uses "galactic magnetic field with field strengths reaching 2 x 10-4 G", noting that ".. at the galactic center (fields as high as 10-2 G can occur in concentrated regions)."

Here is the post where I went through the calculations. I was using 10-9 Tesla (also from one of Peratt's papers), which is 10-5 Gauss. That gets you one to three orders of magnitude difference from what I calculated. Doesn't come anywhere near closing the gap.
 
The reason there are no articles disputing this stuff is the same as the reason there are no articles demonstrating that the gravitational effects of the stars making up the constellations are too weak to affect anyone's personality.
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Just taking Peratt's paper I mentioned above, there are certainly refereed citations to it, including a paper from 2007 in Astronomische Nachrichten noting that Peratt's work is "pioneering".

The reason there are "no articles demonstrating that the gravitational effects of the stars making up the constellations are too weak to affect anyone's personality." is because the effect is electromagnetic, specifically the visible spectrum, which has influenced lots of people to write mushy poetry, the Egyptians to base their religion on it, and others to become astronomers and philosophers. Not bad for a few specks of lights.
 
Here is the post where I went through the calculations. I was using 10-9 Tesla (also from one of Peratt's papers), which is 10-5 Gauss. That gets you one to three orders of magnitude difference from what I calculated. Doesn't come anywhere near closing the gap.
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Thanks for the link. But as I mentioned before, your calculations are based on your model (or your interpretation of Peratt's), not on the model used in Peratt's paper.
 
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The reason there are "no articles demonstrating that the gravitational effects of the stars making up the constellations are too weak to affect anyone's personality." is because the effect is electromagnetic, specifically the visible spectrum

Oh, I see. So the reason Tauri are more determined than Aquarii has to do with the color of the stars in the night sky in the month they were born, rather than their gravitational effects?

Let me be clear: the idea that galactic magnetic fields can explain rotation curves is much more far-fetched than astrology. Same goes for the sun being powered electrically.

Take Zig's estimate - the magnetic fields would need to be stronger by 20 orders of magnitude to significantly affect the motion of stars. Suppose starlight was stronger by that same factor. That's equivalent to putting the stars closer to us by a factor of 10^10 - which would make the nearest ones as bright as if they were a few thousand miles from the earth. A star passing that close would have quite an effect on everyone's personality....
 
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Thanks for the link. But as I mentioned before, your calculations are based on your model (or your interpretation of Peratt's), not on the model used in Peratt's paper.

You're wrong. Read it again.

Zig's estimate is a basic calculation from electricity and magnetism. If you have a high-school level knowledge of physics you can do it yourself. He took an estimate for the net charge of the sun and asked how strong a magnetic field you'd need to get a force comparable to the gravitational forces acting on the star. There are no assumptions in there - none at all. And there are no significantly adjustable numbers either. The estimate for the charge might be off a little, but it cannot be off by much (again, for totally obvious reasons).

The only thing Zig ignored is the dipole moment. So, BeAChooser---oops! I mean iantresman, of course (sorry about that strange little slip)---why don't you fix up Zig's estimate by computing the force in a B field on a star with some dipole moment. Go ahead - please do that estimate, and see how big a dipole moment and how big and what kind of B field you'd need to get an effect comparable to gravity.

We're waiting.
 
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Thanks for the link. But as I mentioned before, your calculations are based on your model (or your interpretation of Peratt's), not on the model used in Peratt's paper.

My calculations are based upon three things: the observed motion of our sun, the maximum charge our sun can have (in other words, this is an upper bound for the produced acceleration since the actual charge could be less), and the field proposed by Peratt. There is no other model dependence, everything else is dictated by Maxwell's equations, and nobody is challenging those. It doesn't matter if I'm not using Peratt's model: I'm using his numbers and showing they can't produce the necessary accelerations to explain galactic rotation curves when applied to an actual star, as opposed to some homogenous plasma which he might be simulating. Whether or not his model is self-consistent is quite beside the point as far as I'm concerned: it doesn't match reality, and is therefore little more than a curiosity.
 
The only thing Zig ignored is the dipole moment. So, BeAChooser---oops! I mean iantresman, of course (sorry about that strange little slip)---why don't you fix up Zig's estimate by computing the force in a B field on a star with some dipole moment. Go ahead - please do that estimate, and see how big a dipole moment and how big and what kind of B field you'd need to get an effect comparable to gravity.

You're right. I forgot the dipole moment. But here's a hint for him if he wants to actually do that calculation: the net force (not the torque) on a dipole is proportional to the field gradient, not the field itself. Let's see if he can figure out why I'm not worried that this might change my results significantly.
 
I already went through this in another thread. The proposed galactic magnetic field is too small by about 20 orders of magnitude to provide a noticeable force on a star like our sun. That's not a factor of 20, but a factor of 1020.

And you did it all without bothering to actually read and understand Peratt's (and Alfven's) model. ;)

Tell us, Ziggurat ...

How did he manage to get his paper approved in the first place, by fellow scientists and engineers, if his work could that easily be proven wrong? Did the peer review process simply break down? If that happened, why didn't the publishing journal offer an apology to its readers when the failure of their peer reviewers to catch the obvious was noticed? Why didn't any of the scientists in their readership write in to complain about such sloppy peer review? Or did the publishing journals censor those letters of complaint? Can you provide us with the name of ONE astrophysicist who has challenged the peer reviewed papers by Peratt with the reasoning you just gave? Or are you just so much smarter than all of them and the first to actually find this flaw? :D
 

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