Suicide

[Complexity]

(emphasis mine)

We are probably not very far away from total agreement, once we clearly designate what we mean by the terms we have both used. It just happens to be a subject I am a bit emotional about, and it tends to show when I post about this - I tend to rant on a little.

I am just a little concerned as to the part I bolded from your post, as it appears to be something that you disagree with me about. And I do not think I said or inferred anything of the kind. If I am misreading this, sorry and ignore this post. If I am not could you please clarify what you think I said and I will try to clear this up.

Norm

I'm sorry for any confusion, Norm. I should have drawn a line before that statement and said, "and now for some other thoughts." I wasn't suggesting that we disagree on putting someone in physical risk. In my head (it was coherent there for a moment, I swear), I was setting up our assumed agreement regarding the wrongness of putting someone in risk of physical harm with our assumed disagreement regarding the wrongness of putting someone in risk of emotional harm.

A good friend had the experience as a teenager of walking into a room of his house and finding the body of his father, who had killed himself with a shotgot. My friend later tried to kill himself after the breakup of a relationship. There were echoes of the past in that act. My friend is now a husband and a father and appears to be doing well.

I don't take suicide lightly, and I hope that people who are depressed or otherwise psychiatrically at risk for suicide get the help they need to help them continue to live a life worth living.

I hope you are happy and well.

 

[Complexity]

Adding:

• I have done something dishonourable, and my culture allows me to regain my honour by committing suicide.
• I have done something dishonourable, and my own conviction makes me feel committing suicide will doe something to restore my honour.

Hans

Great additions.

 

[Smidge]

Here's an expansion of a situation that may possibly allow for a justifiable suicide.

For example, a person has been unhappy in childhood, as a teenager and in adulthood, his/her feelings of loneliness, isolation, anger towards one's self are regular and normal. Relationships on a working, friendship, family and intimate level are difficult, unsuccessful and lead to deeper unhappiness.

Eventually, what some may term a breakdown occurs, the person experiences a very deep level of depression, further isolation, confusion and huge emotional pain.

Acting on his/her own initiative, he/she seeks help through his/her GP, then through other professionals to whom he/she is referred onto, including hospitals, mental health support services, counselors, therapists, cognitive behavioural therapy, psychiatric & psychological referrals and therapy, support groups, anonymous helplines, is prescribed anti-depressant medicine, the medicine is changed and increased/decreased as the years go on. The person attends any therapy he/she is supposed to and takes the medicine correctly.

Each attempt to get help, to change, to seek a solution or 'cure' or way of working through the pain, loneliness, isolation, depression, is initiated and followed through by the person themselves who informs his/her 'loved' ones about this in order to hopefully get support.

After more than 10 years nothing is working.

The loneliness, isolation, depression, self-hatred and more importantly the very real and deep pain is getting worse all the time. The 'loved' ones don't really help or understand. They protest that they are there for support and defend themselves. This makes the person feel worse and more isolated.

The horrendous unbearable emotional pain could be surpassed by brief and very irregular self inflicted physical pain and the overall pain could be solved by death.

There is nowhere else for the person to go from here having tried to do as much as possible for over a decade.

 

[rissablue]

Here's an expansion of a situation that may possibly allow for a justifiable suicide.

For example, a person has been unhappy in childhood, as a teenager and in adulthood, his/her feelings of loneliness, isolation, anger towards one's self are regular and normal. Relationships on a working, friendship, family and intimate level are difficult, unsuccessful and lead to deeper unhappiness.

Eventually, what some may term a breakdown occurs, the person experiences a very deep level of depression, further isolation, confusion and huge emotional pain.

Acting on his/her own initiative, he/she seeks help through his/her GP, then through other professionals to whom he/she is referred onto, including hospitals, mental health support services, counselors, therapists, cognitive behavioural therapy, psychiatric & psychological referrals and therapy, support groups, anonymous helplines, is prescribed anti-depressant medicine, the medicine is changed and increased/decreased as the years go on. The person attends any therapy he/she is supposed to and takes the medicine correctly.

Each attempt to get help, to change, to seek a solution or 'cure' or way of working through the pain, loneliness, isolation, depression, is initiated and followed through by the person themselves who informs his/her 'loved' ones about this in order to hopefully get support.

After more than 10 years nothing is working.

The loneliness, isolation, depression, self-hatred and more importantly the very real and deep pain is getting worse all the time. The 'loved' ones don't really help or understand. They protest that they are there for support and defend themselves. This makes the person feel worse and more isolated.

The horrendous unbearable emotional pain could be surpassed by brief and very irregular self inflicted physical pain and the overall pain could be solved by death.

There is nowhere else for the person to go from here having tried to do as much as possible for over a decade.

This is a very difficult situation to deal with and maybe my response is one from pure emotion based on past experience but I think it should be considered.

It is painful to hear the loved ones are, in the end, causing more harm than good. Something new for me to consider and hopefully learn from.

However, the depressed person is so sick that I don't think selfishness can even play a role. For them, everyone would be better w/o, or at least that is how I've come to learn it. When your roommate with a 3 month old baby kills herself and you find her body, there doesn't seem to be any reason for it. Anger and hurt overshadows your reason to understand the person's position.

A while later, I finally learned that selfishness had nothing to do with it. At least in this case. For them, the best they could have done for this child, her best friend, her family was death. Maybe this is true for most suicides that are emotionally based.

No need to be rational or justify it to anyone. There is no other choice.

 

[Smidge]

From another thread on the same topic:

But why don't you tell us why you are asking this question, Kitten? My own feeling is that suicide is usually a mistake, and one that cannot be corrected.

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The main problem with suicide is that it is usualy done as a solution to the experience of pain. And that people's judgement is somewhat impacted by the pain, so if you have asomething that is causing pain and you choose to end your life, that is the end of your life.

Now if someone is not reacting to situational pain and has intact judgement and can come to a dicsion I would respect that. But really, killing yourself because you got a bad grade on a paper?

-------------
I've expanded the question with an example. Please see my post below - if either of you or anyone else cares to comment.

Thanks.

 

[fromdownunder]

I'm sorry for any confusion, Norm. I should have drawn a line before that statement and said, "and now for some other thoughts." I wasn't suggesting that we disagree on putting someone in physical risk. In my head (it was coherent there for a moment, I swear), I was setting up our assumed agreement regarding the wrongness of putting someone in risk of physical harm with our assumed disagreement regarding the wrongness of putting someone in risk of emotional harm.

Thanks for the clarification.

I hope you are happy and well.

I'm fine - sorry if my response to you seemed mysterious. My emotions on this subject involved my father, quite a few years ago now, when he was dying from cancer, and legislation that was actually enacted in the Northern Territory to allow for voluntary euthenasia (under extremely stringent conditions).

The legislation was overturned by the Australian Commonwealth Government, despite overwhelming support among Australians. And none of the Australian states (where the Commonwealth could not overthrow the legislation) have had the guts to mirror this groundbreaking and humane personal choice.

My fathers outcome was somewhat better. Despite the illegality of assisted suicide at that time, he found a tame doctor (and there are quite a few around), and died at a time of his own choosing with my mother, sister and brothers all present to say goodbye.

Norm

 

[Loss Leader]

Is suicide ever justified or can there be a justification for someone committing suicide?

Justification implies that the issue of suicide is one of justice. This would mean that somebody has been treated inequitably by the actor. Can anyone's interests in anything (a family member's interst in love, a roommate's interest in not finding a dead body, the state's interest in a healthy citizenry) ever outweigh the individual's interst in his own life?

I think the answer is no. Thus, I think that suicide cannot be subject to a process of justification.

 

[fuelair]

Sure. But that does not mean it is a great idea.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Is suicide ever justified or can there be a justification for someone committing suicide?

It would seem that someone should have as much right to end their life as they do to live... or suffer through it. But as it turns out, I think we have to live for the sake of the rest of us... except under the most dread conditions. We can't promote the mindset that someone could "quit the game" anytime things seem bad. Overcoming the bad, is a part of life.

 

[Complexity]

It would seem that someone should have as much right to end their life as they do to live... or suffer through it. But as it turns out, I think we have to live for the sake of the rest of us... except under the most dread conditions. We can't promote the mindset that someone could "quit the game" anytime things seem bad. Overcoming the bad, is a part of life.

[emphasis mine]


Why the hell not?

And why do you think you're permission or blessing is either needed or desired?

I'll kill myself when and if I damned well please, and no law against suicide or attitude like the one you've expressed is going to slow me down at all.

You have a hell of a lot of nerve.

 

[SamanthaMc]

Here's an expansion of a situation that may possibly allow for a justifiable suicide.

For example, a person has been unhappy in childhood, as a teenager and in adulthood, his/her feelings of loneliness, isolation, anger towards one's self are regular and normal. Relationships on a working, friendship, family and intimate level are difficult, unsuccessful and lead to deeper unhappiness.

Eventually, what some may term a breakdown occurs, the person experiences a very deep level of depression, further isolation, confusion and huge emotional pain.

Acting on his/her own initiative, he/she seeks help through his/her GP, then through other professionals to whom he/she is referred onto, including hospitals, mental health support services, counselors, therapists, cognitive behavioural therapy, psychiatric & psychological referrals and therapy, support groups, anonymous helplines, is prescribed anti-depressant medicine, the medicine is changed and increased/decreased as the years go on. The person attends any therapy he/she is supposed to and takes the medicine correctly.

Each attempt to get help, to change, to seek a solution or 'cure' or way of working through the pain, loneliness, isolation, depression, is initiated and followed through by the person themselves who informs his/her 'loved' ones about this in order to hopefully get support.

After more than 10 years nothing is working.

The loneliness, isolation, depression, self-hatred and more importantly the very real and deep pain is getting worse all the time. The 'loved' ones don't really help or understand. They protest that they are there for support and defend themselves. This makes the person feel worse and more isolated.

The horrendous unbearable emotional pain could be surpassed by brief and very irregular self inflicted physical pain and the overall pain could be solved by death.

There is nowhere else for the person to go from here having tried to do as much as possible for over a decade.

In the above situation, I think one should view suicide as the absolute last resort. I do think there are justifiable reasons to kill oneself, but I am not sure that is the case if one is seeking absolution before doing it. If one is thinking of killing oneself, yet one worries if it is justifiable, then I think that person has not reached the point of total and complete hopelessness.

If you are able to care at all about the people who care about you, and you are thinking of committing suicide, then you must try very hard to consider what will happen to the people who love you after you are gone. There is a saying that goes, "Suicide does not end your pain, it just transfers your pain to someone else." Sometimes thinking along these lines can help you see that although your pain will end, you will cause pain to others. If you don't want to do that, then I think committing suicide would be unjustified in a way.

Even though the people who love you don't understand and don't know how to help, they would be completely guilt-ridden if you took your own life. Imagine the impact that your death would have on them. They would spend the rest of their lives wondering what they could have done differently, and you would be the cause of that pain for them.

I understand that some people are beyond being able to care how other people feel, but if you can care at all, I think that can give you the desire to at least try to get through another day, if not for your sake, then for theirs.

 

[dattaswami]

Is suicide ever justified or can there be a justification for someone committing suicide?

This human life is very rare. The ignorance of real aim of the life leads to thoughts of suicide due to tensions created in this unreal drama. Will any body kill himself or herself really on the stage while acting a drama? Is he or she not a fool? Is he or she not mad? Suppose a student is defeated in cricket game and commits suicide. Is he or she not mad? Suppose a student is defeated in cricket game and commits suicide. Is he not a fool? The game itself is a side activity meant for a change. This worldly life is just a side activity and one should not get even tension in this worldly life, not to speak of suicide!

 

[Complexity]

I'm afraid I may have mucked things up.

In my passion for asserting a person's right to control, as much as is possible, the time and manner of their death, I haven't brought life to the forefront and given it its due.

I think there are times when a person can quite reasonably choose to die, but I believe most suicides are by young people who are depressed, angry, or afraid. Life often does get better with a bit of time, and I hate the thought of these people giving up too soon.

For many years, I have wrestled with serious depression, and suicide was occasionally on my mind. I got professional help, including therapy, psychiatric care, and medication, and I'm happy to report that I'm still alive and kicking.

I will intervene if I think someone is suicidal due to depression or some other mental illness. I also assert the right of everyone to choose the time and manner of their death. Inconsistent? A bit, but it is how I've cobbled things together.

I fully expect that I'll drop dead in the street one day (not to far off) with a heart attack. If, however, I live long enough, I expect that one or more of the scenarios that I listed in an earlier post will occur, and I'll choose to kill myself.

I hope that you all live good, long, and rich lives and die well in the fullness of time.

 

[Smidge]

Justification implies that the issue of suicide is one of justice. This would mean that somebody has been treated inequitably by the actor. Can anyone's interests in anything (a family member's interst in love, a roommate's interest in not finding a dead body, the state's interest in a healthy citizenry) ever outweigh the individual's interst in his own life?

I think the answer is no. Thus, I think that suicide cannot be subject to a process of justification.

The words 'justice' and 'justifiable', although sharing the same root, are quite distinct in meaning. The term 'justifiable homicide or manslaughter' does not imply that justice has been achieved. Justifiable actually means rather than implies that a defence of its action can be warranted. As for the interests of others I've addressed that in another reply below. The interests of others are as selfish as our own. It's a law of nature.
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It would seem that someone should have as much right to end their life as they do to live... or suffer through it. But as it turns out, I think we have to live for the sake of the rest of us... except under the most dread conditions. We can't promote the mindset that someone could "quit the game" anytime things seem bad. Overcoming the bad, is a part of life.

Overcoming the bad - how simple. How is can this be achieved? I'd very much appreciate knowing this vital information as you may be in the unique position to prevent anyone from considering suicide ever again.

Did you take the time to read this post (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3437446&postcount=23) or any other post in this thread to get an overall picture of what is being discussed?

----------------------

In the above situation, I think one should view suicide as the absolute last resort. I do think there are justifiable reasons to kill oneself, but I am not sure that is the case if one is seeking absolution before doing it. If one is thinking of killing oneself, yet one worries if it is justifiable, then I think that person has not reached the point of total and complete hopelessness.

If you are able to care at all about the people who care about you, and you are thinking of committing suicide, then you must try very hard to consider what will happen to the people who love you after you are gone. There is a saying that goes, "Suicide does not end your pain, it just transfers your pain to someone else." Sometimes thinking along these lines can help you see that although your pain will end, you will cause pain to others. If you don't want to do that, then I think committing suicide would be unjustified in a way.

Even though the people who love you don't understand and don't know how to help, they would be completely guilt-ridden if you took your own life. Imagine the impact that your death would have on them. They would spend the rest of their lives wondering what they could have done differently, and you would be the cause of that pain for them.

I understand that some people are beyond being able to care how other people feel, but if you can care at all, I think that can give you the desire to at least try to get through another day, if not for your sake, then for theirs.

No-one should commit suicide and should continue live in emotional & mental pain & deep distress so as not to cause others to be 'guilt-ridden'? And if one does commit suicide he/she is beyond being able to care how other people feel?

What role do or can 'loved ones'/others play in a person's depressive illness in either it's development or in helping to ease their illness and pain?

A greater issue is that these 'loved ones'/others and many, many people cannot nor have ever really tried to understand mental illness and how powerful and real an illness it is.

--------------------------------

This human life is very rare. The ignorance of real aim of the life leads to thoughts of suicide due to tensions created in this unreal drama. Will any body kill himself or herself really on the stage while acting a drama? Is he or she not a fool? Is he or she not mad? Suppose a student is defeated in cricket game and commits suicide. Is he or she not mad? Suppose a student is defeated in cricket game and commits suicide. Is he not a fool? The game itself is a side activity meant for a change. This worldly life is just a side activity and one should not get even tension in this worldly life, not to speak of suicide!

Your English is clearly not fluent and very awkwardly expressed so allowances can be made for that. But to consider someone to be a fool who is suffering from a serious, diagnosed depressive mental illness for over a decade and has sought as many avenues as possible for a solution and to change is wholly ignorant.

Human life isn't as rare as we would like to believe - there are over 6.5 billion people on earth.

 

[SamanthaMc]

No-one should commit suicide and should continue live in emotional & mental pain & deep distress so as not to cause others to be 'guilt-ridden'? And if one does commit suicide he/she is beyond being able to care how other people feel?

It is important to note that many, many people who have been in tremendous emotional pain, mental pain and deep distress have contemplated killing themselves and for whatever reason, did not. They did not think their pain would ever, ever end, they did not think things could ever, ever get better, but for whatever reason, they did not kill themselves. And things got better for them, some how, some way. No matter how unimaginable it was to them at the time, they are able to look back and say they were glad something stopped them from killing themselves because things did get better.

Sometimes that something can be guilt. I don’t encourage anyone to feel guilty necessarily, but I do encourage someone to consider the ramifications of their actions in all situations, including whether or not to commit suicide. If the guilt of hurting loved ones gives one pause, and at some point in the future things get better for them and they are glad they didn’t kill themselves, I think that is a good thing.

When I say that a suicidal person may be beyond being able to care about how other people feel, I mean if that is the case, then guilt will not be a motivator for them to not kill themselves. I think one must fully explore the effect their death will have on people they care about, and once that is examined, if one still feels that killing themselves is the thing to do, that is absolutely their choice. But suicide is so final I think someone is obligated to search within themselves and make sure they have considered everything before they make that choice.

A very good friend of mine killed himself many years ago. I often wonder if he would have done it had he known that even after 20 years, the people that love him still hurt and still miss him. I would have liked to have had the opportunity to make sure he knew that. I would have liked to have made certain he thought his suicide through completely, and there was no stone left unturned that would have given him pause when it came time to pull that trigger. And if he still would have done it, I would have understood.

What role do or can 'loved ones'/others play in a person's depressive illness in either it's development or in helping to ease their illness and pain?

A greater issue is that these 'loved ones'/others and many, many people cannot nor have ever really tried to understand mental illness and how powerful and real an illness it is.

I understand how other people can seem to add to a depressed person’s feelings of isolation. Trying to explain to someone who has never been depressed what it is like to be depressed seems impossible at times. It is very, very hard for a non-depressed person to fathom. It’s not that they are trying to be obtuse or dismissive, but it seems to be a concept many people just cannot grasp. Realizing that it’s not it’s not personal but just how they are built can help the depressed person when they feel dismissed and misunderstood. Something their loved ones can do is realize that just because they cannot grasp the concept of depression, that doesn’t make it any less real or any less of a major illness. That’s really hard for a lot of people.


I think often times depressed people can help themselves by seeking out others who DO understand. If your loved ones just can’t or won’t get it, finding other people who do can be very rewarding. Sometimes just hearing, “Yeah, I know what it’s like to feel that way and you’re not crazy,” can make you feel a lot less isolated. Being understood on any level by anyone can sometimes make all the difference.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Overcoming the bad - how simple. How is can this be achieved?

Hope springs eternal... never give up... find a way.

I'd very much appreciate knowing this vital information as you may be in the unique position to prevent anyone from considering suicide ever again.

Now who implied anything like that? And I said it should not be promoted,not done. Suicide can be justified, but the evolutionary process compells us to seek to survive at all costs. The progress of science is based on "finding ways for us to survive" as much as it is on "the need to know."

Did you take the time to read this post (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3437446&postcount=23) or any other post in this thread to get an overall picture of what is being discussed?

All the normal... major points, were covered. Suicide to save, good. Suicide to harm... bad. And they were well written.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

See also Ramón Sampedro.

 

[Smidge]

See also Ramón Sampedro.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram%C3%B3n_Sampedro
Very interesting.

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Suicide to save, good.

Suicide to save someone from their painful illness - that's the final way having sought and tried many different ways for over a decade.

---------------------

I have the answer to my question. Thank you to everyone who contributed.

 

[zooloo]

If a person wishes to end their life it is a matter for them to decide.

 

[staunch]

Let me ask you all this question. What if someone you either new or did nor know said, Im going to kill myself. What would you do?

Here is a true story. In 1971 I was a rookie police officer, I was standing with my training officer on a busy street. This guy walked up to the training officer and said Donald, Training officers name. Im thinking of killing myself can I use your gun. Now I have never seen this guy but the T.O. has dealt with him on many occassions. The T.O. tells him you don't want to end your life like that it would be messy, you brains would be
be all over the walls and it would be a horrible sight. The T.O. tells him to go home and stick his head in the oven. Back then many homes had gas log stoves. The next day in the squad room we get the word so and so is dead. Stuck his head in the oven. Remember this is way before we had any training with this type of situation. So what would you do.