Gunman shoots 18 people.

[Skibum]

The police will take care of protecting them, that's their job.

If that's the case, every cop on the planet is an almost complete failure.

 

[WildCat]

In the depths of winter in Dekalb, it is a depressing place. Theres just something about that town, which doesn't lend itself well to positive mental health. Last year, someone committed suicide on the train tracks behind my apartment.

Man, I hear you! When I went to NIU in the late 80's (graduated in '90) those train tracks were the suicide method of choice for several students. The running sick joke at the time was that NIU students died in strange ways. Besides the obvious suicides on the train tracks, there were several others killed walking on them going home from the downtown bars (those freight trains go through DeKalb at very high speed). It seemed several would also die every year choking on their own vomit after drinking too much. We had one guy steal a glass from a bar (McCabe's, long since closed), slipped on the ice on the sidewalk, the glass broke and severed an artery in his leg and he bled to death. I was also acquainted with 2 guys who were tripping on LSD one night, and for some reason decided to see who could stand closest to the train going by. The "winner" was beheaded by a ladder attached to one of the cars.

And a friend of mine to this day was paralyzed from the waist down during a frat initiation. He had been blindfolded and they were leading him along the train tracks, and while going over a viaduct he fell through the tracks and onto the street below.

I don't know what it is about that place, but I did have a good time there!

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Someone callous enough could make a tidy sum releasing a cover version of Leadbelly's "DeKalb Blues" with updated lyrics. There's always a way to market grief.

 

[LostAngeles]

The fourth, according to the BBC.

You know, I have to be honest here. There are school shootings and there are school shootings. One is where a kid shows up and starts shooting randomly like yesterday and the nursing student. The other is where one kid shows up and shoots the other. The latter has happened so often here and for so long I barely blink at it.

The problem is clearly identifying dangerous people before hand.

From your admission in this thread, it would seem that you are not stable enough to be considered a safe person to own guns for example.

That is going by the VT shootings and the shooter their having issues with depression and suicidal thoughts in the past.

I'm having difficulty properly registering my offense at this post. I can't even see how that was a necessary comment. Really, you should have just called the UCPD and warned them that because of my depression and past suicidal thoughts, I'm a shooting threat.

BTW: My last name is often mispelled as well. It's Scottish and composed of two fairly common English words. You might want to jump on the phone.

 

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

I'm not talking about a ban, but a very strict registry. We have one in Canada, but I think it should be more strict and include all kinds of guns, because obviously it failed us again.

May I ask how a registry helps identify people who are likely to go off their meds and jackassulate?

I don't see what's the fascination with having a gun in the house. Civilians should do what they are supposed to do, live their lives instead of playing cowboys and indians. The police will take care of protecting them, that's their job.

Actually, in the US, the police are there to enforce the law and have no specific duty to protect the people. There just aren't enough of them.

...and, actually, the ones who DO play Cowboys and Indians have a very low rate of gun crime and accidental shootings. I suspect it's because if they screw up on the society's safety regulations, they don't get to play, and if they screw up on the state and federal gun laws, they don't get to have the guns at all.

 

[LostAngeles]

Hi


May I ask how a registry helps identify people who are likely to go off their meds and jackassulate?



Actually, in the US, the police are there to enforce the law and have no specific duty to protect the people. There just aren't enough of them.

...and, actually, the ones who DO play Cowboys and Indians have a very low rate of gun crime and accidental shootings. I suspect it's because if they screw up on the society's safety regulations, they don't get to play, and if they screw up on the state and federal gun laws, they don't get to have the guns at all.

Hey!

I already had this argument for you both! Either settle down now or I will turn this thread right the hell around and no one will be getting any ice cream except me and your dad!

 

[baron]

Apparently this guy was on medication and all four guns he used were legal and licensed to him.

"These things happen," said the chief investigating officer at the press interview.

You couldn't make it up.

 

[Bikewer]

As a police officer of many years experience, I can assure you that the chance of police protecting you from a given crime is vanishingly small. I've been in police work since 1968, and my involvement with crimes "in progress" might easily be counted on the fingers of two hands.

We do a fair-to-middlin' job of finding and arresting criminals after the fact, but that does little to protect the victim.
How many of these mass killings have been interrupted by police?

It's the nature of these things to be essentially unexpected. Even when individuals present warning signs, they are often ignored by family and friends. Medical professionals are either prohibited from communicating alarming symptoms to police, or reluctant to do so.

We would like to think that the average citizen has little to fear from home invasion, serial rapists, and drug-addicted burglars who may react violently if discovered, but the fact remains that all these things happen, and they happen more frequently in some areas of the country.
Forgive citizens who feel a little more secure with a defensive weapon in their home.

Unfortunately, in cases such as this one, the weapon involved may have been legally purchased and kept in all due safety for years, until whatever circumstances conspire to drive the owner over the edge.
Then, that legally-acquired weapon may be the instrument of a mass murder. Since we have no functioning crystal balls at present, I don't see any way of preventing such things.

News just in indicates that the fellow had purchased at least one of these weapons quite legally within the week, that he "had been on medication" (unspecified), but that he had recently quit taking it.
All too typical. An individual with some sort of mental-health problem, likely of recent onset, with no warning signs whatever.

 

[Drudgewire]

We would like to think that the average citizen has little to fear from home invasion, serial rapists, and drug-addicted burglars who may react violently if discovered, but the fact remains that all these things happen, and they happen more frequently in some areas of the country.

Forgive citizens who feel a little more secure with a defensive weapon in their home.

Thank you. And thank you for your service.

How many of these mass killings have been interrupted by police?

Off the top of my head I can only think of one, that being the club incident where Dimebag Darryl was killed... and that was just happenstance that an off-duty officer was at the show.

 

[LostAngeles]

Thank you. And thank you for your service.
...

Ditto. I wish we could get Bikewer on TV to shut the talking heads up with that.

 

[WildCat]

Apparently this guy was on medication and all four guns he used were legal and licensed to him.

Not really. Here is the application for a Firearms Owners Identification Card here in Illinois. Note question #3 "In the past 5 years, have you been a patient in any medical facility or part of any medical facility used primarily for the care or treatment of persons for mental illness?".

Problem is, medical privacy laws prevent this from actually being checked on. This needs to change! I don't think the honor system is adequate in this case.

eta: Illinois does not license or register firearms, just the owners.

 

[Nogbad]

According to the Yahoo news report he was considered a good student and a generally OK guy. It would appear that something flipped his switch.

There are a large number of guns in circulation in the US but invariably these shootings are ended by the shooter taking his or her own life. Does the argument "guns are essential to stop this sort of thing" really hold water?

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

We do a fair-to-middlin' job of finding and arresting criminals after the fact, but that does little to protect the victim.
How many of these mass killings have been interrupted by police?

What percentage of all homicides do these mass killings comprise?

We would like to think that the average citizen has little to fear from home invasion, serial rapists, and drug-addicted burglars who may react violently if discovered, but the fact remains that all these things happen, and they happen more frequently in some areas of the country.
Forgive citizens who feel a little more secure with a defensive weapon in their home.

Given that even studies done by pro-gun researchers have shown that people who live in homes where there is a gun are more likely to be homicide victims than people who live in homes where there not a gun (not to mention the accidental deaths), people who feel think that they are safer having a gun are living in a fantasy world.

 

[Pardalis]

Hi

May I ask how a registry helps identify people who are likely to go off their meds and jackassulate?

It won't. It would certainly make it a little more difficult for them to obtain arms, especially if their background is being checked.

Actually, in the US, the police are there to enforce the law and have no specific duty to protect the people.

What about "to serve and protect"? Isn't that their credo?

...and, actually, the ones who DO play Cowboys and Indians have a very low rate of gun crime and accidental shootings. I suspect it's because if they screw up on the society's safety regulations, they don't get to play, and if they screw up on the state and federal gun laws, they don't get to have the guns at all.

I'm just saying people are trained to do certain things. Pro guns proponents seem to think they are supermen: during a shoot out they think they could spot the bad guy and take him out. To me that's absurd. You need training to do that, and even then nobody is immune to mistakes. Having a gun of your own doesn't make you safer, IMO it makes things even worse, it makes things even more unpredictable. It multiplies the possibility of something going wrong by a hundred.

 

[LostAngeles]

Not really. Here is the application for a Firearms Owners Identification Card here in Illinois. Note question #3 "In the past 5 years, have you been a patient in any medical facility or part of any medical facility used primarily for the care or treatment of persons for mental illness?".

Problem is, medical privacy laws prevent this from actually being checked on. This needs to change! I don't think the honor system is adequate in this case.

eta: Illinois does not license or register firearms, just the owners.

See, I read that as, "have you been hospitalized for psychiatric care?" Nothing indicates the gunman was hospitalized. It's the difference between going to the Neuropsych hospital and the regular hospital.

I agree that the honor system is not at all adequate in such a situation. I can't see why there can't be a secure database where the name or even SSN is matched up against a true/false value. If true, then no gun, if false, that part of the application is clear.

 

[LawnOven]

Man, I hear you! When I went to NIU in the late 80's (graduated in '90) those train tracks were the suicide method of choice for several students. The running sick joke ...onto the street below.

Yeah, that sounds about right. Haha, I would say you knew some crazy people-- anywhere else they would be, but that sounds about right for that lovely place.

I remember one of the gentlemen in my Anthropology department wrote a thesis on how having a freight train running through the town every 10 minutes affected peoples lives.

I don't know what it is about that place, but I did have a good time there!

Well I'm glad someone enjoyed their time in Dekalb.

I finished a graduates degree there in the spring of 07'; and was quite happy to leave (to put it nicely).

 

[Drudgewire]

According to the Yahoo news report he was considered a good student and a generally OK guy. It would appear that something flipped his switch.

There are a large number of guns in circulation in the US but invariably these shootings are ended by the shooter taking his or her own life. Does the argument "guns are essential to stop this sort of thing" really hold water?

Him getting shot after killing one person rather than shooting until he got bored and offed himself? Yes, I'd consider someone else with a gun in that situation "essential."

 

[Fnord]

It will be interesting to see what the background of this guy was. These types of things are usually the end result of a long string of ignored warning signs.

According to this CNN LINK, Steven Kazmierczak...

- was an award-winning sociology student.
- was a leader of a campus criminal justice group.
- displayed no "red flag" warnings of any violent behavior.
- worked on a graduate paper that described his interest in "corrections, political violence, and peace and social justice."
- co-authored a manuscript on the role of religion in the formation of early prisons in the United States.
- was an awarded student ... someone that was revered by the faculty and staff and students alike.
- was a fairly normal, unstressed person.
- was taking medication but had recently stopped.
- had become somewhat erratic in the last couple of weeks.
- always paid his rent on time, never a noise problem, left his apartment spotless.
- was the recipient of a dean's award for his graduate work in sociology in 2006.
- served as vice president of the university's Academic Criminal Justice Association.
- worked on a paper on self-injury in prisons with the ACJA's current president.
- had no arrest record.
- had no known history of mental illness.
- had a valid state-required firearm ID card.

So what do we look for? Intelligent, well-behaved people who get good grades, pay their rent on time, and legally own firearms?

 

[WildCat]

It won't. It would certainly make it a little more difficult for them to obtain arms, especially if their background is being checked.

This is done. See my last post, that information is verified by the state police. Except medical records...

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

You only know what you read in the papers. Your problem is that you are focusing on an event in a location you don't associate with any danger, a college campus. Multiple murders happen each week in major cities.

Your silence on that appears to be callousness. No, it doesn't, it's a matter of staring at a spike.

I'll remind you that 30,000,000 lawful gun owners didn't kill anyone yesterday. Your draconian approach is noted, and is consigned to the same dustbin as draconian drug laws that do no good.

DR

The old - 'you only know what you read in papers' - appears again. I had missed its presence for a while. Glad to see it is still alive and providing general hilarity.

Why assume that he is not concerned about major cities. That would be a straw man would it not and you are exceptionally good at erecting and smokin' your own brand.

Are the draconian laws against murder that don't work also to be thrown in that same dustbin, if you are serious about that argument? Thou shalt not kill. What a draconian law that is - and it doesn't work either. Which liberal government came up with that rubbish?

After all, why have any laws at all when none of them get observed all the time? Darth Rotor demands anarchy for all.

Only in America.