Why did God give up?

[Radrook]

And yet science is extremely sure that the Earth had a beginning and that it will have an end (at least as far as life is concerned).

I never said that science isn't sure.

 

[Radrook]

Lets take this in sections...

Cool!

Normally I wouldn't resort to this, but since you seem to have your own special meanings for words I'd like to make sure we're on the same page.

OK!

Arrogant: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions.

To me, it seems detestably arrogant to assume that the entirety of the universe was created just for us. And, in fact, as humanity is such a tiny speck on the timeline of the universe, it's like an ant assuming the purpose of your life was to provide shade for for it during the quarter second you walked over it during your lunch break today.

I did not say that the entire universe was created especially for us.

When did I claim the universe is the result of mindless blind chance? And what are your credentials which merit you as someone with the knowledge and authority to dictate what in the natural world is "sufficiently complex too [sic] demand a conscious power as their source"? What evidence do you have? It appears to me that you're basically dressing up the watchmaker argument here.

Who am I? Who are you? When did I?

No one is dictating anything. That's paranoid and verges on the hysterical! As I clearly said in plain English, I use the same method which your beloved atheist scientisdtsd do to reach MY conclusions. Or is that method a patented one not available to anyone else but atheists?

So are we talking about God or aliens? Or are you asserting that God is an alien? Not sure what you're getting at here.

Are you supposing that the universe is not vast to other intelligent beings which may potentially exist but for which there is no evidence? Perhaps if there are beings without a speed limit of 186,000 miles per second in a vacuum with an enormous lifespan and can survive in more than just a handful of places in the universe, sure... they might not see it as intimidating. What's your point? They haven't bothered to stop by and say hello yet so I see no reason to rely on them to assert that a conscious power created the universe.

I see no reason. Not sure whatyu are getting at. What's your point? I don't see. I don't understand. Who are you to dictate? Conscious power! Conscious power! Conscious power!

What a waste!

The point I was making is that any existence in this universe might think it's special simply because it exists but along with that, the conditions under which it exists prevent life from happening on plenty of other worlds. It doesn't make Earth special any more than it makes Mars not-special. It just happens to be the way things are.

If you can't see earth as special, then you have a real problem my friend. Even scientists acknowledge that earth is special. So don't consider yourself their spokesperson because you are not.

When did I make that assumption? I never said, nor have ever alluded to the idea that we know everything there is to know. Nor do I claim to have a personal relationship with a magical being who does. (if you ask my father, the honest truth is that I did profess that I knew everything at the age of 5; it's true but I've forgotten a lot since then)

Saying "I don't believe that a conscious power created the universe" is not the same as saying "a conscious power created the universe." The big assumption happens when people say "yes a conscious power created the universe and I know what he wants us to do!" To do so is intellectual dishonesty at best.

I never said. I never claimed! Conscious power! Conscious power! Conscious power! Conscious power! Conscious power! Conscious power! Conscious power! Conscious power!

Yadayadyada

Yikes!

 

[Radrook]

And this is also an area that I clash with creationists - Man by nature is an incredibly curious creature. If God wanted us to passively accept all that is around us - why did he he give us such an amazing playground.

That's not a biblical idea.

 

[Radrook]

That is the price of doubt. Doubt in God's infinite Wisdom. If you were faithful; if you had absolute confidence in God; if you accepted in your heart the Truth of God's design, grief could not claim you. It is all for a Reason. His Reason. That we do not see that Reason and understand the glory of it is our failing, not God's.

Grieving is feeling sorry for oneself. It is selfishness and it, too, is a test of our worthiness. Haven't you heard that funerals are for the living, not the dead? We must rise above mere human grief in God's name.


...someone help me!

Or at least, someone...

Win Powerball!!!

Powerball is fun!

 

[MG1962]

Well the following holds no weight against a deist perspective, I'll admit that. However, to answer your question, there are lots of things that are apparently wrong in our world. Why do we die? Why did God make cancer and other diseases? Why did God make natural disasters? From a logic standpoint, if he's all-powerful and created the laws of the universe, why weren't they created in a way so that we'd be free of disease and disaster (of their climatic or cosmic origin such as a meteorite or being swallowed by our own star)?

It seems like a pretty flawed design to create things solely for the purpose of their destruction later on. The idea that there is no mastermind is much more plausible to me than the one who would create so much suffering.

Ah okay - when I hear the word universe I think of the big picture. I do consider myself in the theist camp, however I am humble enough to understand I have no idea how it all stitches together. Why do we die, get cance, fall prey to meteor strike - I dont know the answers to your questions. That does not mean they are not out there - just that I dont know lol

 

[AudioFreak]

Ah okay - when I hear the word universe I think of the big picture. I do consider myself in the theist camp, however I am humble enough to understand I have no idea how it all stitches together. Why do we die, get cance, fall prey to meteor strike - I dont know the answers to your questions. That does not mean they are not out there - just that I dont know lol

I don't know either. But I guess that's what makes it all interesting.

 

[AudioFreak]

I did not say that the entire universe was created especially for us.

...

No one is dictating anything. That's paranoid and verges on the hysterical! As I clearly said in plain English, I use the same method which your beloved atheist scientisdtsd do to reach MY conclusions. Or is that method a patented one not available to anyone else but atheists?

No one is dictating anything? Really? Well, you did at one point say "After all, your world if full of things which are the result of conscious power, things infinitely less complex than the universe you claim is the result of mindless blind chance but which are sufficiently complex too demand a conscious power as their source."

Do you see that highlighted part? The part where you say that the complexity of the universe DEMANDS a conscious power as its source? Yeah. That's you dictating based on your own incoherent thought processes that the universe demands a conscious power.

You do not use the same method as any atheists I've ever met. Scientists are scientists, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof. They follow the scientific method. It's obviously something you know absolutely nothing about, or you wouldn't be spouting this kind of garbage.

I'm pretty sure that you don't even bother reading your own writings when people respond to them to see what they're referencing. I honestly feel bad for you that you've got such a malfunctional brain.

 

[AudioFreak]

That's not a biblical idea.

It wasn't stating an idea, it was the hypothetical condition of a question. You really have a hard time understanding what words mean when they are put together, don't you?

 

[MG1962]

That's not a biblical idea.

Undoubtedly - When the Bible is confirmed as a natural history text book, I will probably care

 

[Belz...]

My analogy was between things which are considered to be the product of design because they show organization toward a purpose.

And the universe does not show such a design or purpose.

 

[Belz...]

That's not a biblical idea.

Neither are computers.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Reject what? True skeptisim demands a rejection of the claim that you know what lies within the undetectable areas of our universe. Better yet, science demands that we reserve judgment. So who really is saying here I want it to be so? The person who claims to know what lies within the undetectable or the person who admits at least that he doesn't know?

Of course you can bring in a veritable host of other premises and deviate. But that doesn't refute the logic of the argument. It only serves to distract. Which is a waste of time. At least my time in reading it would be wasted if it continues to crop up.

BTW
For the sake of this discussion I am taking the position of claiming not to know.

Reject the claim of an intelligent designer. While we cannot know what exists in the indetectable reaches of being, we have excellent arguments (dating from Hume onwards) against the idea of an intelligent designer -- which is the argument that you brought into play. There is no -- still standing -- argument for an intelligent designer beyond "I want it so". All the rest have been demolished, despite the protestations of some like Michael Behe (who appears to me to be one of the most stubborn men I have ever seen). That is the reason to reject it. There is a big difference between humility in the face of the vastness of being and believing tripe just because someone likes it.

ETA:

But, there is a deeper issue in the formulation of an intelligent designer that most arguments for and/or against the design argument never rise to -- that it forever mires you in a form a dualism. If you have way to make dualism work, then let's here it. I've never encountered one.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I say arrogance because such a claim is tantamount to a flea who has lived all her life atop an elephant's back claiming to know what lies behind the undectable beyond or far horizon.

What about the arrogance of the flea who concludes that the elephant was made just for her?

 

[bokonon]

I say arrogance because such a claim is tantamount to a flea who has lived all her life atop an elephant's back claiming to know what lies behind the undectable beyond or far horizon.

You mean like the people who live all their lives in a world where everyone is born, lives for a time, and dies, never to be seen or heard from again, yet claim they know there is an "afterlife" in which "good" people are blessed beyond imagining, and "bad" people are tortured unendurably, for all eternity? That kind of arrogance?

 

[fuelair]

You've used that analogy in another thread, and it's still faulty.

Some are faulty and some have faults thrust upon them!!!! And some just like to run around putting faulty arguments wherever they can!!


Though, far be it from me to suggest a fisherman casting over and over to see what he would catch!

 

[dglas]

I'm sorry, folks, but I can't do it. I just can't play God's advocate anymore. The dishonesty of it is too much to bear...The "thinking" is too insidious, too pernicious, just too ... grimy.

I can't bring myself to hate humanity enough.


I guess it goes along with not being able to...

Win Powerball!!!

 

[Darth Rotor]

Why did God give up?
He got tired of all the liability lawsuits.

Now He just plays Powerball. Anyone want to lay odds on Him winning?

DR

 

[Marc L]

First off, there is the notion that the laws of the universe came into existence by the conscious power and action of God who created them just for us. Well, that's a very arrogant proposition I'd say. Almighty God created the laws of the universe so that life would emerge on a tiny rock, one of millions of billions, in some backwater fringe of the universe on a planet doomed to be swallowed up by its star when it expires?

It is scientific fact that this planet is doomed. There isn't an astronomer out there who would disagree that the sun, at the end of its life, is going to swell up and eradicate life from our planet. This hardly seems like the thoughtful planning of an all powerful God.

I have a couple of problems with your question. First, since I haven't posted here in a while and people may not remember me, let me say that I am an atheist, and not a theist. That having been said:

The Earth isn't about to die anytime soon. It was around for millions of years before humans walked the earth, and is (if I remember correctly) going to be for several million years more before the Sun blows up. Pretending for a second that an all powerful God does exist, what makes you think that he's forgotten about us (speaking solely from a planetary/astronomical viewpoint and ignoring the countless other indicators)? Several million years is a long time from now, and certainly more than enough time for an all powerful God to swoop in and save us from total annihalation (sp?).

Beyond that, what makes you think that our hypothetical God didn't give us the tools and abilities to save ourselves? Do you think that human technology is going to suddenly stop just short of intergalactic travel?

Additionally, what about the millions of planets for whom the laws of physics as they presently stand negate the possibility of life? What evidence is there to suggest that if any of the laws of physics were slightly different that it wouldn't then open the gate for life to exist elsewhere? The fact that we're here means we could be no place else.

My knowledge of astronomy is very shaky at this point. Is it definite that life cannot exist anywhere else in the universe? Or is it just that we haven't found any yet? And frankly the fact that we're here does not necessarily mean we could be no place else, if you mean in the sense that life couldn't have developed the same way it has here. The universe is big. Do we really know that there is no chance of another earth like planet somewhere out there?

Let us assume, for a moment, that God does exist. He created the universe just for us. My question is, why did he give up? He put us on a doomed rock with temperamental weather. Not only that, but during his creation process he got pretty lazy as well. There are a multitude of points that have been made about the shortcomings in the apparent design of the world and its organisms. Why isn't the circulatory system in our legs better adept at handling the extra blood pressure due to walking upright? etc..., things of that nature.

Why did God give up? Is God making quiche in the other room and he's dashing back to check the oven? Does he keep leaving the referee post to argue with his baby's mama on his cell from the celestial sidelines? What's so important that he keeps ducking away from the world?

God started the universe and wanders away. "Oh heavens... I let life spring up in the boonies. It's not in the middle of things all special like I'd wanted. This star is going to swallow them all up in a bit. Oh well. It'll be amusing while it lasts."

Life emerges when God designs creatures starting with the irreducibly complex and working up to the reducibly complex. "Oops, wasn't paying attention and let a meteor destroy most of complex life on the planet. Oh crap, well lets start building them up again. Let's make them less toothy this time."

Humans come into existence and are ignored for 90%+ of their existence by the divine. "Damn, did they spring up ALREADY? Alright, well I'm feeling a little down in the dumps. Cheer me up by burning animals and killing other people I haven't talked to yet and praise me as much as you can."

Modern day; God ignores the world yet again. Hatred and barbarism no longer require us to get our own hands dirty, we can do it with the push of a button. We can kill someone without ever seeing their face or hearing their cries. Some of God's followers are more than willing to take their own lives to create suffering for those who do not share the same views of God. God does nothing to stop any of these things. There is no divine intervention. I submit it's because there is no divine; at least not one that can intervene.

God gave up astronomically speaking by lazily putting us noplace special in the universe. Gave up on us biologically by not bothering to suit us effectively for the world we live in; we've had to make most of those advances on our own. He gave up on us personally by allowing evil and hatred to run rampant in our world. Why did God give up? If he exists, why so half-assed? Why not more consistency? Why are we able to find natural causes for every inquiry we make into the world around us that do not require a supernatural explanation? And yes, there are areas we don't have good answers for yet. That does not make some made-up mumbo jumbo an accurate or valid explanation.

I'm skipping these, because others are already discussing them here. I simply wanted to comment on what I already have.

Marc

 

[dglas]

Why did God give up?
He got tired of all the liability lawsuits.

Now He just plays Powerball. Anyone want to lay odds on Him winning?

DR

...attempts worst Shatner voice....

"Ummm. Excuse me...why does God need to...

Win Powerball!!!!

?"

 

[Tanstaafl]

Why did God give up?
He got tired of all the liability lawsuits.

Now He just plays Powerball. Anyone want to lay odds on Him winning?

DR

That reminds me of one of my favorite jokes:

Why don't we see miracles today like in the Old Testament?

That was the development phase of the project, now we're in maintenance.