Why did God give up?

[MG1962]

It's a question to the faithful. For the sake of argument let's make the concession that God created the universe. Why did he do such a crappy job? It's certainly better than I could do, but if he did we're surely a side-project in it and not its celestial focus.

Why do you think the universe is such a crappy job? We are still scratching the surface of how it all works - Its the equivelent of grabbing the front wing of an F1 car and saying, it dont go very fast

 

[AudioFreak]

Lets take this in sections...

Let me address just one of the many interesting arguments you put forth:

First, why do you arrogantly reject conscious power as a possibility behind the commencement of the universe?

Normally I wouldn't resort to this, but since you seem to have your own special meanings for words I'd like to make sure we're on the same page.

Arrogant: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions.

To me, it seems detestably arrogant to assume that the entirety of the universe was created just for us. And, in fact, as humanity is such a tiny speck on the timeline of the universe, it's like an ant assuming the purpose of your life was to provide shade for for it during the quarter second you walked over it during your lunch break today.

After all, your world if full of things which are the result of conscious power, things infinitely less complex than the universe you claim is the result of mindless blind chance but which are sufficiently complex too demand a conscious power as their source.

When did I claim the universe is the result of mindless blind chance? And what are your credentials which merit you as someone with the knowledge and authority to dictate what in the natural world is "sufficiently complex too [sic] demand a conscious power as their source"? What evidence do you have? It appears to me that you're basically dressing up the watchmaker argument here.

Also, from our viewpoint we see the universe as intimidatingly vast. But who are we to say that this viewpoint is shared by all intelligent beings in possible existence? Which would include other dimensions or other perhaps existing universes not bound by the laws of our own?

So are we talking about God or aliens? Or are you asserting that God is an alien? Not sure what you're getting at here.

Are you supposing that the universe is not vast to other intelligent beings which may potentially exist but for which there is no evidence? Perhaps if there are beings without a speed limit of 186,000 miles per second in a vacuum with an enormous lifespan and can survive in more than just a handful of places in the universe, sure... they might not see it as intimidating. What's your point? They haven't bothered to stop by and say hello yet so I see no reason to rely on them to assert that a conscious power created the universe.

The point I was making is that any existence in this universe might think it's special simply because it exists but along with that, the conditions under which it exists prevent life from happening on plenty of other worlds. It doesn't make Earth special any more than it makes Mars not-special. It just happens to be the way things are.

BTW
The assumption that one knows all their is to know is both illogical and unscientific since obviously we don't. Or do you?

When did I make that assumption? I never said, nor have ever alluded to the idea that we know everything there is to know. Nor do I claim to have a personal relationship with a magical being who does. (if you ask my father, the honest truth is that I did profess that I knew everything at the age of 5; it's true but I've forgotten a lot since then)

Saying "I don't believe that a conscious power created the universe" is not the same as saying "a conscious power created the universe." The big assumption happens when people say "yes a conscious power created the universe and I know what he wants us to do!" To do so is intellectual dishonesty at best.

 

[AudioFreak]

Why do you think the universe is such a crappy job? We are still scratching the surface of how it all works - Its the equivelent of grabbing the front wing of an F1 car and saying, it dont go very fast

Well the following holds no weight against a deist perspective, I'll admit that. However, to answer your question, there are lots of things that are apparently wrong in our world. Why do we die? Why did God make cancer and other diseases? Why did God make natural disasters? From a logic standpoint, if he's all-powerful and created the laws of the universe, why weren't they created in a way so that we'd be free of disease and disaster (of their climatic or cosmic origin such as a meteorite or being swallowed by our own star)?

It seems like a pretty flawed design to create things solely for the purpose of their destruction later on. The idea that there is no mastermind is much more plausible to me than the one who would create so much suffering.

 

[dglas]

It's a question to the faithful. For the sake of argument let's make the concession that God created the universe. Why did he do such a crappy job? It's certainly better than I could do, but if he did we're surely a side-project in it and not its celestial focus.

Crappy job? Why would you say that? That the earth is going to be destroyed when the sun goes boom is simply another way of expressing his wrath in a way directly analogous to the expulsion from the garden of Eden. It is also an expression of His benevolence in wishing to share all of His creation with us.

God wants us to grow and expand and move. It was not just the world that was made for us; it was the whole universe. But we are poor sinners, content to rest on our fat asses and need a force to compel us to get moving. So God has armed us with the knowledge that this place is not secure forever. Just when we think we have reached harmony with His creation, we are humbled by a greater conflict. We have to start working in order to move. He's probably placed alien heathens/heretics/infidels out there in the depths of space for us to bring His word to, one way or another.

It is a way, an opportunity, for us to earn our Redemption in His eyes.

Gah! I can think like them when I want to.

I feel all dirty.

And when we have proven our worth in His eyes, we will...

Win Powerball!!!

 

[AudioFreak]

But if we accept Jesus in our hearts, we'll all just stay here and get swallowed up by the Sun. So if our star is set to destroy us and was set to long before our existence, then God must have been known that Jesus would be ineffective in setting us free from this inevitable demise, so what kind of redemption is that to offer?

 

[dglas]

Well the following holds no weight against a deist perspective, I'll admit that. However, to answer your question, there are lots of things that are apparently wrong in our world. Why do we die? Why did God make cancer and other diseases? Why did God make natural disasters? From a logic standpoint, if he's all-powerful and created the laws of the universe, why weren't they created in a way so that we'd be free of disease and disaster (of their climatic or cosmic origin such as a meteorite or being swallowed by our own star)?

It seems like a pretty flawed design to create things solely for the purpose of their destruction later on. The idea that there is no mastermind is much more plausible to me than the one who would create so much suffering.

Are you really hooked on the problem of natural evil?

(1) If we don't die, we cannot join Him in Heaven.
(2) Cancer and Diseases? We need trials and tribulations to prove our worth. Even the most amateurish of fiction writers knows this. Conflict is essential to a good story.
(3) Natural disasters are conflicts not directly attributable to other people. They are tests of Faith.

Logic is a bird, twittering in your ear. It proves only what you design it to prove.

Wow! This is addictive! It really is.

But it will all become clear when the Faithful...

Win Powerball!!!!

 

[dglas]

But if we accept Jesus in our hearts, we'll all just stay here and get swallowed up by the Sun. So if our star is set to destroy us and was set to long before our existence, then God must have been known that Jesus would be ineffective in setting us free from this inevitable demise, so what kind of redemption is that to offer?

Ah, but if we accept Jesus in our hearts we can die gladly, knowing that we will be at His side. Why fight death. Embrace it. It is a passage to the Divine!

Honestly, haven't you ever heard it said that God helps those who help themselves? Well, isn't your scenario just the paradigm example? The important point is that God has given us the knowledge the sun will go boom. Now it's up to us to earn our way.

LOL! This is fun!
Like eating high-cholesterol foods. I can actually feel my grey matter hardening.

But not as fun as as it will be when the Faithful...

Win Powerball!!!

 

[AudioFreak]

Ah, but if we accept Jesus in our hearts we can die gladly, knowing that we will be at His side. Why fight death. Embrace it. It is a passage to the Divine!

And yet when they die their loved ones do not act as if they've won powerball. If it's a joyous thing, why is there an inherent sadness? Or are we just jealous that they've died?

 

[dglas]

And yet when they die their loved ones do not act as if they've won powerball. If it's a joyous thing, why is there an inherent sadness? Or are we just jealous that they've died?

That is the price of doubt. Doubt in God's infinite Wisdom. If you were faithful; if you had absolute confidence in God; if you accepted in your heart the Truth of God's design, grief could not claim you. It is all for a Reason. His Reason. That we do not see that Reason and understand the glory of it is our failing, not God's.

Grieving is feeling sorry for oneself. It is selfishness and it, too, is a test of our worthiness. Haven't you heard that funerals are for the living, not the dead? We must rise above mere human grief in God's name.


...someone help me!

Or at least, someone...

Win Powerball!!!

 

[AudioFreak]

Are you really hooked on the problem of natural evil?

(1) If we don't die, we cannot join Him in Heaven.
(2) Cancer and Diseases? We need trials and tribulations to prove our worth. Even the most amateurish of fiction writers knows this. Conflict is essential to a good story.
(3) Natural disasters are conflicts not directly attributable to other people. They are tests of Faith.

Logic is a bird, twittering in your ear. It proves only what you design it to prove.

Wow! This is addictive! It really is.

But it will all become clear when the Faithful...

Win Powerball!!!!

Why do we need to prove our worth? God made us. Doesn't he know what we're made of and what we're worth? It all sounds very sadistic if you ask me.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

dglas,

I'm really worried about a thorny theological thesis that you bring to mind. Why can't we all win Powerball?

 

[Radrook]

Many things have been made by conscious design. It doesn't follow that everything is - as sedimentary basins demonstrate.

My analogy was between things which are considered to be the product of design because they show organization toward a purpose. Such as arrowheads, buildings, stone cutting tools, and so forth and the organic things which also show organization toward a purpose,
but to an infinitely greater degree such as the eye with its lens, iris, retina, optic nerve, and the brain's occipital lobe to decipher and interpret the neuro transmission initiated by the various light wavelengths into images. That sort of organization.

In short, the same objective scientific criteria which reacts to an arrowhead as intelligently designed because it shows intention of purpose is being equialyy applied. It can't be a valid criteria there but not hgere because that amounts to inconsistency of policy and is considered fallacious reasoning.

 

[Radrook]

You can call it Carl if you want, but the rejection of that idea is not based on arrogance. There are strong philosophical reasons to reject it and no particularly good reasons to accept it beyond "I want it so."

Reject what? True skeptisim demands a rejection of the claim that you know what lies within the undetectable areas of our universe. Better yet, science demands that we reserve judgment. So who really is saying here I want it to be so? The person who claims to know what lies within the undetectable or the person who admits at least that he doesn't know?

Of course you can bring in a veritable host of other premises and deviate. But that doesn't refute the logic of the argument. It only serves to distract. Which is a waste of time. At least my time in reading it would be wasted if it continues to crop up.

BTW
For the sake of this discussion I am taking the position of claiming not to know.

 

[Radrook]

But if we accept Jesus in our hearts, we'll all just stay here and get swallowed up by the Sun. So if our star is set to destroy us and was set to long before our existence, then God must have been known that Jesus would be ineffective in setting us free from this inevitable demise, so what kind of redemption is that to offer?

Christan believers in God don't think that he he will allow his sun to peter out. Nor that the earth will suffer destruction as a consequence of the sun's demise.

(Psalm 104:5) - "He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever."

(Ecclesiastes 1:4) - "A generation goes and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever."

 

[AudioFreak]

Christan believers in God don't think that he he will allow his sun to peter out. Nor that the earth will suffer destruction as a consequence of the sun's demise.

(Psalm 104:5) - "He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever."

(Ecclesiastes 1:4) - "A generation goes and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever."

And yet science is extremely sure that the Earth had a beginning and that it will have an end (at least as far as life is concerned).

 

[bokonon]

For the sake of argument let's make the concession that God created the universe. Why did he do such a crappy job?

Maybe god is all-powerful and all-stupid. So he just keeps rolling up planet after planet, tossing out galaxies like frisbees, but he has no more idea than the man in the moon how to make another world like the earth -- and the man in the moon has rocks for brains.

Make a few billion trillion of those things, though, and if you're very, very lucky, one of them will have mud on it that will sit up and sing Hosanna!

Now, if only he had somebody he could show it to...

 

[Jeff Corey]

Christan believers in God don't think that he he will allow his sun to peter out. Nor that the earth will suffer destruction as a consequence of the sun's demise.

(Psalm 104:5) - "He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever."

(Ecclesiastes 1:4) - "A generation goes and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever."

Some of the Christians I know are not that incredibly stupid. They are nice people who practice the golden rule and get along with atheists and humanists. But they know that the bibble is not a science textbook.

 

[vexed]

I'm going to stick with the physics/astrology side of this for the moment but promise to wander from there.

I'm guessing you meant astronomy...

 

[Radrook]

Some of the Christians I know are not that incredibly stupid.

Now you are resorting to name-calling! A true pity since the subject can be discussed without it and it only serves to shut down communication in order to prevent repeats.

They are nice people who practice the golden rule and get along with atheists and humanists. But they know that the bibble is not a science textbook.

So I am stupid and not nice -don't apply the golden rule in my life and don't get along with atheists and humanists because I quote two scriptures?

WEll, you certainly are entitled to your opinion. However a calm decent reply would have been preferable. As it stands, all you have managed to do is convince me that your posts aren't worth my time.

Very sad indeed.

BTW
I never said the Bible is a science book. Neither does the Bible describe itself as a science book. So that idea is purely YOURS not mine. : )

 

[Complexity]

What god?