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How To Be A Global Warming Sceptic

You see, here's the difference. You are making a claim. That they have validated their research. I've demonstrated what it takes for something to be validated.

I've done an exhaustive search, and I have yet to find where the methodology - most specifically on historical temperature records - that hs been validated to the extent required to be beyond questioning. So, I'm offering to you that I'm willing to look at examples where you state they have been, and I will examine them and admit that I am wrong if they are meritorious.

That is exceedingly generous - and intellectually honest - on my part. So, please provide me examples where the methodology, and we can limit it to historical temperature records, have been independently validated as I have described above. I'm not talking about cross-talk (i.e., where ice core samples appear to correlate with tree ring samples). I'm talking about controlled, prospective validation, for example as was attempted in southern France (and failed miserably) on a tree ring data.

-Dr. Imago

extent required to be beyond questioning

Beyond questioning? You are joking, are you not. Everything in science and medicine is open to questioning. We are still hunting down the particle that makes gravity work. Medical science is always coming up with new surprises.
 
AUP has parroted this claim before, and each time it has been challenged for lack of evidence, he has become mute.

You want detailed science? Show me all the details for any field of research in science that you can just run up on google? I am not a scientist, but I have a friend who is one. They do run models against known records, and conduct sophisticated statistical tests against them. For that kind of information, you're going to have to go to specialised scientific journals that aren't available for free online.

This is his research history. Looks like a lot of hard work to me. Google won't be much help for you with this kind of in depth science.

http://www.dar.csiro.au/profile/docs/hirst_cv2007.pdf
 
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Getting carried away, you mean? It would seem so from what I've seen.

Sometimes there's a hint of the public house around these parts, but no more than a hint.
I was referring to personal insults or name-calling being out of bounds but getting carried away happens too. :)
 
Okay, let us then go back to Trueskeptic's list and see how it fares. First I'm going to delete the arguments that have nothing to do with science but are oriented toward conspiracy, hoaxes, politics or effects of global warming.
Nevertheless many GWS make these claims. I'd say something like half of what I have seen in public forums are of this nature. They never get as far as the science (they are normally scientifically illiterate anyway), they just "know" that GW is some sort of scam. This immediately falsifies your claim that sceptics support the climate science mainstream as we are already reduced to a subset. The best you can attempt is to show that some sceptics do so.

The remaining items I've separated into POSSIBLE and OBVIOUSLY INCORRECT.
  • "Obviously incorrect" doesn't mean obviously incorrect to everybody, a naive skeptic might ask those questions.
Why are these not "possible"?

Regardless, they have been made, sometimes very prominently. For instance the "volcanoes" claim was made in the original Channel 4 broadcast version of TGGWS.

If we now remove the sceptics making these claims, we have a yet smaller subset.

[*]"Possible" doesn't mean they are right, just that they certainly bear asking and investigating.[/LIST]Now, does anyone think that the application of "Possible" causes should not be discussed with reference to items in the IPCC Radiative Forcing chart that are said to have a LOSU (Level of Understanding) respectively of -
  • HIGH?
  • MEDIUM?
  • LOW?
Or is the "science settled?"
By all means show that the "Possibles" are to be found in mainstream climate science, but your case is already lost.

POSSIBLE
  1. In the 1970s climate scientists said that we were heading into an Ice Age. Why should we believe them now?
  2. Weather forecasters can't predict the weather a week in advance so how can anyone predict the climate 10, 20, or 50 years ahead?
  3. Climate models are just a collection of formulae tweaked to produce results that are close to measurements.
  4. Climate models might be based on physics but it's all so uncertain that the results are meaningless.
  5. It's not getting warmer at all. The figures and graphs produced by the climate scientists are all doctored and can't be trusted.
  6. The figures don't need to be doctored: lots of the weather stations are unreliable. Garbage in, garbage out.
  7. The warming seems to have levelled off so the figures and graphs might be OK after all.
  8. It has got warmer but it's nothing to do with us. It's all to do with natural cycles.
  9. It was much warmer millions of years ago and we weren't around then so how can we be the cause now?
  10. The Medieval Warm Period was at least as warm as it is now. The Vikings colonised Greenland and grapes were grown in Britain.
  11. It's caused by increases in the sun's output.
  12. It's all to do with sunspots. Or cosmic rays.
  13. The so-called greenhouse gases don't cause warming. It's a lie told by the scientists. What really happens is that the temperature rises first and the CO2 follows.
  14. It can't be caused by greenhouse gases because they are only a small part of the atmosphere and can't have much effect.
OBVIOUSLY INCORRECT ARGUMENTS
  1. CO2 is measured on Mauna Loa, an active volcano that spews out CO2, so how can the measurements be accurate?
  2. Volcanoes produce more CO2 each year than all the factories and cars and planes and other sources of man-made carbon dioxide put together so how can we make any difference?
  3. It's caused by changes in the Earth's core.
  4. It's electrical heating caused by the solar wind interacting with the Earth's magnetic field.
  5. Mars has been getting warmer too, so it must be something outside the Earth.
 
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Your request for proof of the claims of validation is like climbing a mountain compared to the (unanswered) baby steps that lie unanswered from me, from Warmologists who are so very sure of their premises, and their beliefs.

REQUEST:

Show me the full set of parameters, data sets, and system initialization conditions published for just one climate model run.
I'm sure this has been done to death already. It doesn't belong here.
 
Sorry folks, but this is off-topic. This thread is not about the science or even the models.

Climate models are in the OP, so it's not off-topic. Climate models are the mainstay for AGW claims and they themselves are hypotheses. Articles using climate models are therefore publishing a hypothesis not a scientific paper because the predictions are not tested.

OP
Climate models are just a collection of formulae tweaked to produce results that are close to measurements.

Climate models might be based on physics but it's all so uncertain that the results are meaningless.

You are using ambiguous assertions and all-or-nothing arguments. In the above you use the word "just" and "all" and "meaningless" to imply skeptics say climate models have no useful purpose.

You list is riddled with such fallacies.
 
Nevertheless many GWS make these claims. I'd say something like half of what I have seen in public forums are of this nature.

Nobody cares what you might claim you have seen in one public forum or another, do they?

They never get as far as the science (they are normally scientifically illiterate anyway), they just "know" that GW is some sort of scam. This immediately falsifies your claim that sceptics support the climate science mainstream as we are already reduced to a subset. The best you can attempt is to show that some sceptics do so. ....By all means show that the "Possibles" are to be found in mainstream climate science, but your case is already lost.
There is nothing that I left in the "Possibles" list that cannot be found in the mainstream climate science. Why else would someone call an item "possible"?

REQUEST:

Show me the full set of parameters, data sets, and system initialization conditions published for just one climate model run. I'm sure this has been done to death already. It doesn't belong here.
Complain to a moderator about your attempt to restrict by fiat what is or is not proper for your thread, then. Let me know how far you get. I'll be very happy to comply.

Likely though, the moderators will pay no more attention to your attempts to redefine JREF rules as climate scientists would pay to your attempt to redefine mainstream climate science with your mismash of far left ill conceived and poorly executed attacks on "skeptics". Have fun, though.

You say ...
This thread is not about the science or even the models.
And then you say...
By all means show that the "Possibles" are to be found in mainstream climate science
And then you say -
your case is already lost
A Warmologist with a clear vision of his select facts and consensus of the few. Thank you.


MY CALL -

Yet another vain attempt by a far left environmentalist to hijack the mainstream of climate science.
 
Climate models are in the OP, so it's not off-topic. Climate models are the mainstay for AGW claims and they themselves are hypotheses. Articles using climate models are therefore publishing a hypothesis not a scientific paper because the predictions are not tested.

OP


You are using ambiguous assertions and all-or-nothing arguments. In the above you use the word "just" and "all" and "meaningless" to imply skeptics say climate models have no useful purpose.

You list is riddled with such fallacies.
Of course it is! That is the whole point. It is a list of claims commonly made by GWS. Not all GWS make all these claims, but some make quite a few. These are not claims made by me!

Do you still not get it?
 
Nobody cares what you might claim you have seen in one public forum or another, do they?
"Nobody"? What an arrogant claim! You speak for everyone, do you?

I "might claim"? Again, are you accusing me of making this list up: that people calling themselves "sceptics" do not make them?

I've seen a few of these claims here already, BTW.

There is nothing that I left in the "Possibles" list that cannot be found in the mainstream climate science. Why else would someone call an item "possible"?
Did you deliberately misrepresent what I said, or just misread it?

Complain to a moderator about your attempt to restrict by fiat what is or is not proper for your thread, then. Let me know how far you get. I'll be very happy to comply.

Likely though, the moderators will pay no more attention to your attempts to redefine JREF rules as climate scientists would pay to your attempt to redefine mainstream climate science with your mismash of far left ill conceived and poorly executed attacks on "skeptics". Have fun, though.
Eh? I'm only trying to keep this thread on topic, that's all. I never mentioned complaining to a moderator.

"... as climate scientists would pay to your attempt to redefine mainstream climate science "? Show me where I am attempting to redefine anything. Actually, quite a few would recognise my list. All I see is you making continued personal attacks and avoiding the question.

Anyway, which is it? My list is a lie and GWS do not make these claims, or that my list is at least partly genuine and in fact these claims are supported in mainstream climate science so no GW sceptic would have any problem with them anyway? You seem to be favouring the latter at present.

Perhaps you just love arguing?

You say ...
This thread is not about the science or even the models.
And then you say...
By all means show that the "Possibles" are to be found in mainstream climate science
And then you say -
your case is already lost
A Warmologist with a clear vision of his select facts and consensus of the few. Thank you.


MY CALL -

Yet another vain attempt by a far left environmentalist to hijack the mainstream of climate science.
Ha ha, what a giveaway!

Thankyou for so obviously displaying your use of another in my list of claims, and for again missing the point.

How do you know that I am a "far left environmentalist"? Well, I'm not, just someone who hates what some do to abuse science and misinform the public when they have lost the battle in the world of real science.

Are you a neocon? You're certainly extreme in some respects.:D
 
Global Cooling comes back in a big way


Dr. Kenneth Tapping is worried about the sun. Solar activity comes in regular cycles, but the latest one is refusing to start. Sunspots have all but vanished, and activity is suspiciously quiet. The last time this happened was 400 years ago -- and it signaled a solar event known as a "Maunder Minimum," along with the start of what we now call the "Little Ice Age."

Tapping, a solar researcher and project director for Canada's National Research Council, says it may be happening again. Overseeing a giant radio telescope he calls a "stethoscope for the sun," Tapping says, if the pattern doesn't change quickly, the earth is in for some very chilly weather.

During the Little Ice Age, global temperatures dropped sharply. New York Harbor froze hard enough to allow people to walk from Manhattan to Staten Island, and in Britain, people reported sighting eskimos paddling canoes off the coast. Glaciers in Norway grew up to 100 meters a year, destroying farms and villages.

But will it happen again?

More:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=408437&in_page_id=1770
 
Originally Posted by mhaze
Nobody cares what you might claim you have seen in one public forum or another, do they?

"Nobody"? What an arrogant claim! You speak for everyone, do you?

I "might claim"? Again, are you accusing me of making this list up: that people calling themselves "sceptics" do not make them?

Okay, please provide date, time and place where some AGW skeptic made each of the claims that you claim AGW skeptics have made.
 
With all due respect (something you haven't given me) ...

I beg to differ.

... I think you cannot, as a non-scientist, grasp the importance of validation.

You may well think that.

But, without validating the models, everything that comes thereafter is tantamount to speculation. A validated study means, among other things, that the observations have been reproduced in a controlled setting and the results are then both meaningful and predictive, having controlled for other possible confounding factors.

Which is tantamount to saying we can't validate climate models, so your "the models are unvalidated" comfort-blanket will never get old. Whatever actually happens.

What comes after a model run are known technically as real-world events. I'm sure we can all agree that it's those that are actually important. They've matched the models pretty well over the last couple of decades, but that, of course, can never count as "validation" to you.

"Unvalidated" will remain prominent in the GWS lexicon for quite some time, I think.

As much as the pro-AGW camp now wants to assert, the current state-of-science in the Global Climate Change arguments have not been validated. And, when they have been attempted to be validated (such as in dendrochronology) by controlling and prospectively looking at variables, the error ranges are far greater than what's openly disclosed after independent review.

"Unvalidated" is the buzz-word, not "validated". It's the uncertainty you want to get across.

Here's a thing : AGW theory predicted a warming effect with increased CO2-load and a warming is what we've been seeing, along with increased CO2-load. That's a good step on the road to validation, don't you think? The next two-to-seven years should confirm the theory or not.

The problem is that a large part of the pro-AGW argument rests on the assumed validity of science that has not yet been proven to be consistent, reproducible, and verified independently. This is a major problem. This essentially renders the current state-of-science to be nothing more than interesting supposition and possibly "guilt by association" rather than rigorous, fundamental, proven fact.

Thermo-dynamics, fluid dynamics, radiative science - are they to be considered "unvalidated" now?

That's the part I object to. For all I know, they could be spot on. They just haven't proven it yet, to the level required to implement and mandate broad, sweeping changes.

A rather subjective definition of "unvalidated", don't you think? I got the impression you were rather stricter than that.

Yet, some people have concluded that it is beyond reproach or further questioning.

It's was real-world events that brought us the Bali Conference, and will (absent massive and abrupt sea-level rise) the Copenhagen Conference. The decision-makers, many with their own scientific advisers and native scientific institutions, have concluded (reluctantly) that there really is something in it.

I have a big problem with that, and it scares me that this is how we now undertake science: once a body of knowledge is developed, it shoudn't be questioned.

Straw-man; nobody's suggesting that. Look at the list in the OP. How much of that is actually about science?

Why is that so hard to understand?

-Dr. Imago

You're pretty transparent yourself. Your prose could do with some tightening up (that bit about dendrochronology is completely opaque), but then it wouldn't reveal so much about you. Given the context of this thread, the latter is more relevant.
 
Okay, please provide date, time and place where some AGW skeptic made each of the claims that you claim AGW skeptics have made.
So, you are saying, after all, that I made the list up?

And that the 14 made-up claims that you selected as "Possible" and worth checking against mainstream climate science are, of course, fictitious too?
 
Well, come on! Play the game. It only takes one person to stand up and be with him on caring and I'm proven false on that assertion.

It is a game, right? Cause I really don't get this thread.....
 
Well, come on! Play the game. It only takes one person to stand up and be with him on caring and I'm proven false on that assertion.

It is a game, right? Cause I really don't get this thread.....
So what do you think the game might be?

The OP is intended as a satire but the list itself is quite genuine.
 

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