Law of Attraction: Superior Woo

[yairhol]

StarSeed,

After you answer G_i_T's question, please tell me which test and what needs to be its outcome in order for you to question the validity of LOA.

Thank you

 

[Wowbagger]

This isn't going to convince anyone of anything, but I thought it was funny and relevant:

 

[yairhol]

But you're saying that the victims were 50% responsible for their plight (and the murderous perpetrators only 50% responsible). You're saying what separated a person who died in the death camps from one who escaped was their thinking.

That's just ridiculous.

Of course it's ridiculous. What separated a person who died in the death camps from one who escaped was their ACTION.

The secret says: Ask, Believe, Recieve.
Reality says: Ask, Believe (it's better to believe than not to but it's definately not compulsory), Act, Recieve (although not always).

 

[Graham Ross]

StarSeed, you promised us skeptics a beat down by the woo master. All you've given us is a lot of excuses why your belief can't be tested.

 

[SonOfLaertes]

No evidence, but this is the story of Atlantis and the origins of modern man. It was only humans because we were chosen for the grand experiment. The general idea was to create an advanced species for souls to embody.

The woo meter seems to have gone up exponentially here. Starseed, is this Atlantis/Soul thing related to The Secret in any way? Or have you completely moved all of your belongings into Never Never Land?

And chosen by whom?

 

[schlitt]

I'm not saying it would be correct, or even close, every time. But observation induces thoughts, even if extremely subtle, and those thoughts affect the equation, although the effect could be trivial.






Yes, it is very possible. There are countless things that human beings know how to do, technically speaking, which would improve life in many ways, and move humanity forward, bit by bit, but for various reasons, we choose not to do them. Here's a couple off the top of my head:

* We have enough food, and the means to grow and deliver food, to feed the starving, but instead, we let them die, or, we pat ourselves on the back for supplying them with the 'rough' version of Malt-O-Meal...........decade, after decade, after decade....

* Mass transportation. Some places have it, like Europe, and the top 10 U.S. cities, but America specifically (since that's what I'm most familiar with), opts to go the greedy and wasteful way.

There are many, many more, of various subjects and magnitude, going all the way down to the fat American, fresh off the triple bypass, who goes straight back to the burger and fries 3 meals a day.

We know better on so many different subjects, but human nature is filled with ironies, and great new ideas and even rock solid science aren't always enough to sway the masses into making the better choice.



How did you examine the situation? The problem the skeptics here continue to have, is they are trying, as you're doing here, do define LOA for us, which obviously will not work, if anything is to work.

The only significant detail you gave me here was that she was 'utterly convinced'. But based on everything that I've laid out in this thread so far, it should be clear than simply 'being convinced' of the validity of LOA is not enough by itself.

There are numerous variables in the equation. Let me give you a short list, as the long one would kill me.

* How many minutes a day did she work with it from beginning to event A?
* Where was she on the emotional guidance ladder at Start, and event A? What was her overall emotional swing like during the timeframe?
* Did she have any lapses, i.e., days where she did not actively do workshops and meditations?
* What is the typical duration of negative emotional swings? And positive? How far on the ladder does she swing?
* Does she meditate, or only do dreamwork? How long for each? How much of a hike in emotional state is achieved in each one?
* How many negative events does she experience in an average day? How many recurring negative events and interactions does she see and/or expect in a day/week?
* When encountering negative thoughts, what actions does she take, if any?
* What kind of dreamwork does she do? What is included? Just financial stuff, or also safety, security, peace, health, ect? What is the emotional gain from the safety/security bit?
* When asked, does she genuinely feel as if she has made real progress, or is she uncertain?
* What is here strongest negative, regular thought? How long does it last? How does she counter it? Does she feel like the counter balancing works?
* What is her strongest positive thought..........?
* What kind of news does she listen to? Does she routinely hear stories of breakins, robberies, rapes, murders, stalkers, wife beaters, ect. Does she make an effort to tune into these stories, or avoid them?
* How does she feel when hearing these stories? How long does the emotion last? What methods does she use to counter balance? Does she feel like it works?
* What is her exact understanding of LOA? Does she perhaps misunderstand parts of it?
* How in tune is she to her subtle emotional guidance system? Can she focus away from a thought within 5 seconds of creation?
* and on and on and on and on and on and on.

I simply cannot stress enough, that if you want to understand the LOA in any capacity, then you must be educated on it the same way as anything else, even if you think its' bogus. Otherwise, there is zero point in discussing it because you will be attempting to refute an idea that doesn't even exist in the LOA community, as you will be making up your own LOA, refuting it, and then attributing to the actual LOA believers! I believe this is called a Strawman.




LOA does not concern itself with good vs. bad, as these are all defined on the fly anyway, and change on a whim. LOA is not like the God of the old testament, flying around shoving lightning bolts up the wazoos of various pagan freaks.

LOA is, for the purpose of this discussion, a mechanism which I believe will ultimately be discovered by science and become part of modern physics.



Opposites attract as a matter of the design of the system. The opposite's you see attracting are on the 'surface'. The inner workings are attracting likes. Abraham, and many others, tell us that the universe is completely conscious on every level, all the way down to the quark and beyond. These conscious entities have their own 'desires', the same as us, albeit very basic.

Put simply, the opposite's desire to attract each other, as that is what they need to exist, or to take a certain form. The actual 'like' in the equation is the conscious desire emitted by both opposites, to attract the other. The desire is a match, therefore they come together.



No, again, you are misunderstanding. LOA allows you to control what enters your 'personal sphere' of reality. It does not allow you to interfere with another's reality unless they allow you to. And there is nothing regarding the Secret that says that the universe is merely the figment of one person's imagination, so we just have to play marco polo to figure out who it is!

When a baby dies of cot death, a couple of weeks after birth.
Who was it that made the concious universe do this?

You accuse people of misunderstanding, but in reality it is simply you who is not seeing the big picture. If we all exist in this universe, then under this concept my wishes are going to effect others, it is as simple as that.

There are plenty of negative, horrible people who have extremely successful lives, who think the secret is a load of BS. Then you have people who are positive, optimistic people who believe the secret, and they die horrible painful deaths.
If the secret does not work for these people who believe it, but seems to work for others who think it is BS, then even if it were true, it would be meaningless.


You will realize in a few years how untrue the law of attraction is, once you come to realize that all you wish for does not come true, and the things you have been attributing to the LOA, would have happened anyway.

This new age fad will die out soon.

As i said, read up on confirmation bias.

Watch this, and try relate it to the secret, and how you will wrongly attribute events to the secret;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI

 

[Speed of Light]

Why don't you see if you can make Randi taller?

 

[Baron Samedi]

Some snips...

...
The only significant detail you gave me here was that she was 'utterly convinced'. But based on everything that I've laid out in this thread so far, it should be clear than simply 'being convinced' of the validity of LOA is not enough by itself.

There are numerous variables in the equation. Let me give you a short list, as the long one would kill me.

* How many minutes a day did she work with it from beginning to event A?
* Where was she on the emotional guidance ladder at Start, and event A? What was her overall emotional swing like during the timeframe?
* Did she have any lapses, i.e., days where she did not actively do workshops and meditations?
* What is the typical duration of negative emotional swings? And positive? How far on the ladder does she swing?
* Does she meditate, or only do dreamwork? How long for each? How much of a hike in emotional state is achieved in each one?
* How many negative events does she experience in an average day? How many recurring negative events and interactions does she see and/or expect in a day/week?
* When encountering negative thoughts, what actions does she take, if any?
* What kind of dreamwork does she do? What is included? Just financial stuff, or also safety, security, peace, health, ect? What is the emotional gain from the safety/security bit?
* When asked, does she genuinely feel as if she has made real progress, or is she uncertain?
* What is here strongest negative, regular thought? How long does it last? How does she counter it? Does she feel like the counter balancing works?
* What is her strongest positive thought..........?
* What kind of news does she listen to? Does she routinely hear stories of breakins, robberies, rapes, murders, stalkers, wife beaters, ect. Does she make an effort to tune into these stories, or avoid them?
* How does she feel when hearing these stories? How long does the emotion last? What methods does she use to counter balance? Does she feel like it works?
* What is her exact understanding of LOA? Does she perhaps misunderstand parts of it?
* How in tune is she to her subtle emotional guidance system? Can she focus away from a thought within 5 seconds of creation?
* and on and on and on and on and on and on.
...

...

As far as making something happen to random subjects, LOA presents a problem in that this would be a cocreation situation, and the 'psychic's' positive power could be offset by the reciever's beliefs.

...
So what else could have affected that situation in spite of your negative attitude? First, you're cocreating with two others, your wife (what was her attitude? More negative, less negative, did she dwell on it as you may have done?) The plumber is blending his energy as well, which might have been something like, "Holy crap, I'm getting this job done today no matter what it takes, otherwise, I'll be out of a job tomorrow, 'cause the boss is pissed!".

That's an example of one person on a mission, vs. another who is merely skeptical. The energy is balanced in favor of the plumber, in that case.
...

Abraham tells us that LOA works through a time buffer in the 3rd dimension. My feel on this is that this is a natural phenomenon in this dimension, as opposed to an artificial one, but I don't have enough info on that yet.

Essentially, this time buffer adds a delay to the attractor effect, which gives us time to balance our thoughts and energies before actual physical manifestation.

The downside is that we see delayed evidence of our aggregate thoughts instead of the instantaneous results that we would ordinarily prefer.
...

So, to summarize, for LOA to work:

- You yourself but absolutely believe without any doubt. Questioning the method causes doubt. No questions must be asked, only pure belief.
- You must remove from your life all sources of doubt -- books, news, any media which may lead to different toughts
- You must also remove all contact with anybody around you who may doubt
- If it doesn't work, don't doubt and don't question, just keep waiting

Is it just me, or are these common themes in any successful cult?

 

[JonWhite]

Every time I truly, positively believe that this wishful thinking fantasy has finally faded into the obscurity it deserves, it rears it's nasty head once again.

The universe hates me.

 

[Furcifer]

Yeah, if it were merely the power of positive thinking I doubt I'd have any problem with it. But LOA purports to be so much more than that, and strays deep into woo territory.

A day later and I see how far this strays into woo territory, heads for wooville, goes up woostreet...

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

StarSeed,

After you answer G_i_T's question, please tell me which test and what needs to be its outcome in order for you to question the validity of LOA.

Thank you

I'm waiting patiently. Somehow I think I may be waiting for a very long time. But I'm always hopeful and wishing really, really, REALLY hard for it to happen, however.

 

[StarSeed]

StarSeed, you promised us skeptics a beat down by the woo master. All you've given us is a lot of excuses why your belief can't be tested.

Well, the 'beat down' comment was humorous. I know I can't do that. I'm here, first and foremost, to clarify what is actually being claimed by those who channel spirit guides who instruct us on the nature of LOA and how to utilize it in our favor.

I still see many misconceptions and false ideas about LOA, that cannot be attributed to the LOA community, so trying to shoot down their argument in that fashion simply doesn't work.

Being as there is no hard evidence or science yet, it will be perfectly easy for skeptics to shoot the idea down even after they fully understand what the LOA is truly about.

Anyway, I'm still taking posts in order as fast as I can, but 1 vs. 10 is time consuming and exhausting, so be patient. I'll be in and out throughout the day.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

I wonder how many times throughout history this has been said to many inventors, scientists, philosophers, only to have the ideas proven correct and put into practice centuries later?

Surely you can see the problem with your status-quo perspective. "We don't need any of your outlandish ideas, sir. Kindly crawl back to your hole, for the universe that we understand now is the only universe there is!"

Ok, mr Christopher-Columbus-Sucessor, then whenever you have the evidence to create the Paradigm Shift necesary in science, you let us know. But as I said, you are the one making the claim and you are the one who has to provide the evidence. Do you understand that basic principle?

My point is: It's not up to us to prove you wrong. It's up to you to prove yourself right about your claim.

No one is telling you to climb back to your hole. No, please, by all means, enlighten us. But do it with evidence. Otherwise, keep your ideas to yourself.
No offense.

 

[Elizabeth I]

And to counter the example of your relative, an old friend of mine, after sending him some Ramtha dvd's, quit smoking! He smoked 2 packs a day for 20 years! Of course, that doesn't prove that LOA works, but it was motivation enough to get the job done.

I quit smoking after a bout of pneumonia, so by your logic we should give pneumonia to our friends who smoke.

Why don't you use LOA to heal amputees? I'm sure that would convince anyone.

 

[StarSeed]

How do they know this?

The info is all coming from the same source, essentially, that being channeled spirit guides. So the knowing is faith based until you prove it to yourself.

StarSeed,

What's vibrating when you say "vibrational"?

The energy; energy mass. We already know that the physical universe that we can test is vibrating (or moving) at all times in some fashion, so the idea that there are energies yet to be discovered by science that would also vibrate is not far fetched.

If the LOA were true, I should be able to wish really hard for the LOA to not work on anybody who is relying on it.

I am only one person, but if LOA does not turn out to be a dependable, I could claim that my LOA powers were superior to everyone else's!

No, the LOA allows each conscious unit, or each energy body, to control its' own destiny. You cannot force your will, via LOA, on someone else. Now, this gets a little confusing in that the question is, "how is the bad guy forcing his will on the good guy"?

I've covered that some, but I'll add more here.

As I've tried to explain, utilizing the LOA is not as simple as merely offering a casual desire for peace and prosperity and having it drop in your lap.

As it is claimed, thoughts are actually energy, creational energy, and the overall balance and direction of your thoughts over a period of time, depending on their strength (a combination of emotional level and belief/expectation), is what determines what will manifest in your life.

A desire is what you decide you want, but there are also dislikes for objects, ideas and events. These produce thoughts as well.

LOA delivers on a kind of 'vibrational filtering mechanism', or thought filtering mechanism, which is 4D directional, iow, 2D representing the spectrum of positive and negative, 1D representing the magnitude and 1D representing the ETA (time to deliver).

It is also 'multi-pronged' if you will. Iow, it can deliver something negative in one subject area at the same time it delivers something positive in another subject area.

LOA is not judgmental. It does not follow the 10 commandments.

We are surrounded by an ether of creational energy, energy that everything thing and everyone came from. We are simply advanced, complex mechanisms, evolved and engineered out of that energy over time, but the energy still surrounds us, and as advanced machines, we have lots of conscious power to create with this energy.

So, back to why the 'bad guy can hurt the good guy'. I've elaborated before, that the complexities of our thought processes, throughout the day, on daily basis, or much more complicated than at first may seem.

How many thoughts do you think in a day? One, two, ten...... if you really tried to add it up, it would be in the thousands at a minimum, because it's not just the major thoughts like, "I need to get to work or I"ll be late", it's every single thought, no matter how small, and how brief.

Now, the real power comes from the duration of the thought, and the emotional content attached to it (technically not from the emotion itself, but that's too much for me to go into here.....the simple description will suffice).

LOA reads the balance of your thoughts, and delivers. In a way, LOA is like an energy filtering mechanism. If the bulk of your focus is on a square, then LOA delivers the square, instead of a circle.

However, if you really want the square, but the bulk of your focus is on the circle, then you will get the circle.

A person can attract unwanted things into their life focusing a significant amount of thought energy onto those subjects. You can tell where the focus of your thoughts are by the emotions you experience at any moment.

Negative thoughts, such as fear of being a crime victim, make you feel bad, to one degree or another. This negative emotion, even if it's subtle, is your indicator that your thoughts are focused on something unwanted, something that will not benefit you, something that is not in your best interest. It is also your cue to refocus your thoughts to the positive.

If you can simply imagine our thoughts as true creational energy, for the sake of the discussion, then it's not far fetched to imagine that wherever you pump in the most thought energy, is where you will get the most results, whether it's a desire or something unwanted.

 

[schlitt]

When presented with questions as to why the secret clearly does not work, all you have offered so far ammounts to "Oh, they just weren't good enough at the secret".

A very convenient excuse.

It is a very brilliant money making scheme they have going here. Captilizing on human natures natural tendancy towards confirmation bias. When something good happens, they will attribute it to the secret, and when something bad happens they think "Damn, i am not good enough at the secret" and buy more material. It creates a cyclic thought process, and therefore a continual money making scheme.

These new age cons are extremely smart, they capatilize on two things.

Firstly, people want something magical to believe in, so often will suspend their better judgement and accept the premise because they want it to be true. I mean, just how cool would it be if it actually were true, it is such a shame it isn't.
This is unfortunately one of human natures easiest flaws to exploit, and why superstition is so pervasive in our society.

Secondly, they capatalize on the fact that many people do not have a good understanding of science, so they dress up their concept in fake science, to make it sound scientific, and this wows all of the ignorant members of society.

If people actually had a sound knowledge of physics, biology and were able to examine these concepts critically, they would immediately see all of the things which contradict science. There are however very few people with this kind of knowledge.

This fad will eventually die out once people realize that their wishes do not come true. Until then, we will have to suffer the credulous optimists with no capacity for rational thought harping on about it.

 

[schlitt]

The info is all coming from the same source, essentially, that being channeled spirit guides. So the knowing is faith based until you prove it to yourself...

None of this is new, we have heard and read all of these pathetic arguments before StarSeed.
What you fail to understand is that it is all just made up.
None of it has any scientific backing, it is made to sound scientific, but it does not have on iota of scientific proof.

Your thoughts are not energy in the sense you refer to. (they are neurochemical reactions)
The universe does not respond to vibration.
The universe is not concious.


The only reason these concepts seem plausible to you, is because you have no knowledge of science.
If pressed to give an explanation of your thoughts vibrating, and the universe vibrating, i bet you would say something like;

"everything is energy, and vibrates, and when you vibrate at a good level, the univerese brings you goodness." or something equally inane.
The thing is, this is not an explanation. It gives no proof or real explanation of the claim. You are not describing the mechanisms of vibrating, or giving evidence. This is simply because the science ignorant target market for this rubbish does not require proper scientific explanations, they simply require that it sounds scientific.
It is the equivilant of me saying "Your tongue has the most amount of gravitational wave collapse potential (sounding scientific to a lay person), if you use your tongue to lick a plutonium bar, you can warp to mars, or if you stay on earth good things will happen." and then offering no scientific explanation of the concept, presenting no evidence, and when people try it and fail, simply say they did not lick the bar well enough.

This whole concept has one very large flaw. If positive thoughts attract positive things. What determines which is positive?

For example, one day John is in his lounge, and a truck crashes outside his house. The truck is full of kitchen knives, which as a result of the crash, go flying though his window, and fly into him, slashing his spinal cord, paralyzing him forever.

A few thousand miles away in another country, Michael is a chef, and he uses knives every day, he wakes up to find that he has been given a brilliant new kasumi knive by an eccentric billionare. That night he uses it to cook an amazing dinner for his girlfriend, they get married and live happily ever after.

Now, secret subscirbers would think that they both brought these events upon themselves using their vibration. But lets really examine the elements here.
There is a common element to both stories, a knife.
Now how could a knife vibrate positively, and negatively? A knife is an inanimate object, its molecular structure and therefore "vibrations", do not change. So which is it, negative or positive?
So you see for The secret not to be rubbish in relation to this story, we need to place the object into a context, in which it can become negative or positive.
So, how does the universe to create a whole series of events made up from objects vibrating differently, to respond to these peoples vibration? The situation as a whole needs to correlate to the persons vibrations, not the objects. And this would require a very intelligent source to do this. The one negative subconcious thought of a person is clearly not capable of doing this via vibration alone, because the context contains far to many elements each with their own vibration. For it to be true, it requires an intelligence to assemble and arrange the situation, and then impose it upon the individual.

Clearly the universe is not doing this. It is not sitting there making up elaborate situations in order to bring innocent people good or horrible situations. This kind of concept is logically flawed and so far fetched that to believe it you need to come up with so many rationalizations that have no evidence.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Starseed, since you're not so hot on hard science (2D dimensions representing positive and negative vibrations is pure nonsense), how about an emotional appeal? Please visit a Holocaust museum or read some accounts of the Holocaust.

Then you'll understand that your notion of victims "cocreating" their experience is absurd.

People are victims of tragedy (crime, natural disaster, illness, etc.) not because of their thought patterns. Yes, positive thinking can be a great motivator, and negative thinking can lead to despair and inaction, but it is the action or lack of action that gets results. And even so, there are cases of random events. A real positive thinker can be struck down by an auto accident or lose his home and property due to a tornado or fall victim to cancer or heart disease. Surely you don't think this never happens?

Tornadoes (and the universe in general) doesn't care about what you're thinking.

The universe existed a long time before human consciousness even came to be. What you're suggesting is that the laws of the universe changed relatively recently.

Oh, back to the personal finance question:

Re: my question on poverty:

Do you see any economic system where wealth and abundance is available to everyone? Can we really ALL be millionaires? (Who will pick up the garbage and wait tables for us?)

In this belief system, there isn't anything that is beyond LOA.

LOA can quite litterally create 'wealth' out of thin air, or delivered via a contemporary system. If you're concerned about that point of critical mass where a traditional economy would not be able to sustain itself, or progress further in that direction, I say that at that point, the global consciouness of humanity would be advancing enough that we would be seeking out, discovering and implimenting new ideas at a pace that would balance out any potential problems.

Add economics to the list of things you're ignorant of.

You're exhibiting magical thinking and nothing more. Somehow positive thinking will replace the hard, methodical work done by science and industry to improve technology? Guess how the computer you're using now was developed? (I'll give you a hint: drawing a picture of a desktop computer and tacking it up on the wall as a goal had little if anything to do with it.)

 

[devnull]

Confirmation bias towards positive events..... I think I finally found a good short definition of 'optimistic world view'.

That's probably more profound that you realise......

 

[dudalb]

The Ultimate comment on the LOA and other visualization techniques was made by Donald Sutherland as Seargent Oddball in "Kelly's Heros"

'SEE,MORIARITY! SEE WHAT YOU DID WITH YOUR NEGATIVES WAVES!".