• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Law of Attraction: Superior Woo

Just finished the article. I don't see anything there upsetting my apple cart. Just standard rebuttle, but I'll address two things in it:

* The observer affect. I had heard of this long before I found LOA, and I don't see how that conflicts. Anytime you observe something, you are doing so with one of a few things or a combination of them:

1) A general, 'lay' expectation of what could be found.

2) A knowledge base lending you to a more focused, or precise expectation of what could be found

3) A hope or wish of what could be found

In other words, no concious entity can observe something without the 'gears of conciousness' turning in some way. Even if one is disinterested in an object, there is still an expectation of what would be there.

Sure, you can have an expectation of what will be there. That does not at all mean you will be correct. This is easily provable; shut your eyes now visualize a platinum brick in front of you, open your eyes with the expectation of it being there.
Go on, try it.

No platinum brick huh?

The observer effect in QM is due to interference of the measurement system, all respectable physicists will tell you this.
If you really want to learn, pick up a copy of "The unconcious quantum" by Victor Stenger.
You have read the pretend science, how about reading the real science.

* 2nd, the idea that LOA has been around in some form or fashion for a long time.

Fine. I have no problem with that. That fact does not invalidate it. How many incredible ideas have been out there for centuries and have only been deemed scientific fact in the last century?

The age of the idea, and the alleged failure of its' practicioners throughout history don't really leave us with anything to draw definitive conclusions.

Do you really think if the secret worked, and had been known about for so long, the world would be in the state that it is?

Let me tell you a true story.

I know someone (Sue) who was very into the secret. She had the book, the DVD, and was utterly convinced of it. Now, a few months after she had gotten into the secret, her house was burgled and some very precious things with a lot of sentimental value were stolen.

Upon examining this situation (and the millions like it that happen every day), it is pretty clear that the secret it not true.
The burglar was getting what he wanted - does this mean he knows the secret?

She did not want to get robbed, so why did it happen to her, if she is responsible for creating her own reality?

How does the LOA determine what is a good thing, and what is a bad thing? The robbery was a good thing for the robber, and a bad thing for the victim. Did the robber use the LOA to complete a successful burglary? If Sue knew the secret and was only attracting good things, then why did she get burgled?

This situation only makes sense, in a reality where you participate in reality, not create it.

Six million jews who died in the holocaust did not bring their slaughter upon themselves.
An innocent child who is mudered does not bring their fate upon themselves.
The murderer is not using the law of attraction to get what they want.

The secret is a lie. The law of attraction is a myth.

Also, if you want to use the observer effect as your explanation, you need to abandon the cosmic vibration theory (which is complete rubbish, as we know scientifically that opposites attract) because these are incompatible.
The cosmic vibration lie (LOA) states that you exist in a universe that you can shape using your feelings and thoughts by vibrating correctly.
The observer effect lie states that you create your own reality. Therefore you are not existing in a universe that would respond to your vibration, you would be living out a dream which is constructed via your thoughts.
They are contradictory.

If the observer effect is real, then from my opinion i have created you StarSeed, and you are not real. I can turn you into a frog, merely by making that my reality. However, you know this is not true, because you are a real person. From your perspective, if you believed this "create your own reality" nonsense, then I am not real, and are just a figment of your imagination. I know this is not true.

These self help books are complete rubbish. If they really worked we would not need bookstores full of this junk.

You can be smart, and use positive actions to make your life better, but wishful thinking is not going to do you any good. All the LOA has really succeeded in, is making Rhonda Byrne and others rich, due to so many gullible people buying the rubbish they flood the market with.
 
Last edited:
Yes, correct divination of 1 out of 10 containers 100 times in a row under proper observational conditions would be very significant and point toward a real effect. But would a lesser number of correct guesses (a number near the amount as expected by chance) point toward the fact that there is no effect? Would you admit that such a result would make you think that LOA is probably not real?

I'm back, and looks like I've got lots of work cut out for me!

It would point in that direction, yes, but one test would not be enough to disuade me, and bear in mind, that once I am able to prove it to myself, I will no longer need science to personally prove it to ME.

If you always give yourself the out that the observer does not have the right amount of positive thinking or that there are too many unknown variables that you didn't think of, then LOA is not testable. So far, your explanation of LOA contains so many outs for why it is not observable that it strains credulity.

Yes, I understand the problem, which I said earlier that it would be a lot easier to prove it correct, assuming it is correct, than to disprove it.

By the way, scientific testing of a psychic guess test has been performed by serious researchers over the years. The meta-result is grossly and overwhelmingly at what is expected by chance. What does this say to you?

It tells me that at least the nature of those tests are unproductive, and that possibly the phenomenon is bogus (although I do believe in it), but given the known hypersensitivity of various types of "psychics", and now with LOA, it is conceivable that the aggregate thought energy in a given situation can derail someone who is accustomed to beating the odds.
 
Yes, I understand the problem, which I said earlier that it would be a lot easier to prove it correct, assuming it is correct, than to disprove it.

It shouldn't really be that hard. One should be able to say, "if this is not true, then we should expect not to see xyz" (or something like that). If the Law of Attraction were not true, what would the universe be like? What kinds of things would happen, or not happen, if it were not true?
 
It doesn't have to be you. Don't you know of anyone less "green" who could do it for us ? I'm sure many would be convinced and a lot more intrigued by a successful test.

A successful test would be an overnight, global sensation! ...but unfortunately, I don't personally know anyone who could assist.

Re: my question on poverty:

Do you see any economic system where wealth and abundance is available to everyone? Can we really ALL be millionaires? (Who will pick up the garbage and wait tables for us?)

Not a purely physical system, i.e., one which excludes the idea of LOA. But LOA is the core law/mechanism of the universe. It is connected to everything, sees and knows all, has access to all, and is all powerful. In this belief system, there isn't anything that is beyond LOA.

LOA can quite litterally create 'wealth' out of thin air, or delivered via a contemporary system. If you're concerned about that point of critical mass where a traditional economy would not be able to sustain itself, or progress further in that direction, I say that at that point, the global consciouness of humanity would be advancing enough that we would be seeking out, discovering and implimenting new ideas at a pace that would balance out any potential problems.

I know that sounds thick as concrete, but I just can't tackle that one in this post as it's too lengthy. I'm sure I'll get back to it later.


My question about the homeless was not in the least sarcastic. If these incredible claims on the effectiveness of the LOA are true, these are the people most in need of it.

I disagree completely with your statement that hopes and dreams and a fake check are better than the attempts that are being made now are. I personally know of several people whose lives are devoted to working with the poor and homeless. Your dismissal of their noble efforts is callous and insulting.

I apologize for being unclear, but I took your statement litterally in that I used the idea of 'those sleeping under a bridge' to represent those who are not receiving any help of any kind, hence my response that the fake check would be better than nothing. There are, in fact, those who are mentally ill, or perhaps addicts, that actively refuse and shy away from assistance.

I'm aware that there are those doing good works in these areas, and I myself have stayed at a homeless shelter once, slept at bunk houses, live in my car and signed up on the food stamps, so I'm not attacking anyone here.

Also, do you think poor people don't want to be better off? Do you really think the problem is that they don't want it bad enough?

Sure they want it, but in the context of LOA, it is the dominating and recurring thought energy, the place of focus, that delivers, regardless of the actual desires.

A person can desire the million dollars, but if they constantly focus on their empty wallet and worry about financial issues all day long, then that focus, per LOA, will deliver more of the same.
 
Tell you what; I'll try to do better at staying on topic, if you will kindly return the favor and refrain from the snide sarcasm.

Hmmm...it's your obligation to stay on topic. Look up the word sarcasm in the dictionary. I wasn't sarcastic.
 
I began work with it about 9 months ago.

I have gradually raised my emotional state out of constant negativity into one of hopefullness and optimism. My daily affairs, work, interactions with others, have improved.
...
I'm hoping to be able to share the results of a 2 month long quest for 'better shopping deals'. So far, it seems to have paid off here and there.

After nine months using LoA, you have nothing to show but some warm fuzzy feelings (explainable without the woo) and some shopping deals??? :jaw-dropp

Dude, the improvement of attitude is good, but your belief in magic is going to come crashing down on you, and that's dangerous.

The part of "The Secret" that really upsets me is the bicycle scene. A kid wishes for a bike really hard, then a sugar daddy buys it for him. Delivering a message like this to kids is a form of child abuse. A proper documentary would have shown the kid getting a job, delivering papers, packing groceries, something to let him earn the bicycle. Instead it teaches us that lazy wishing brings rewards. It's a horrible message.

StarSeed, you are lazy, you admit. That's why you've had an emotional state of "constant negativity." It's because the way you've gone about your life isn't working for you. Ladling on more magic, superstition, and woo nonsense may make you feel better for a while, but it doesn't work. Never did, never will. It's just delaying another emotional crash.

There's no sarcasm in this post. Think of it as tough love.
 
Last edited:
Re: my question regarding victims:


So you think every one of the 6 million or so slaughtered in the death camps of Nazi Germany somehow attracted their murder? Every one of them went around with a mind focused on starvation, deprivation and murder? Remember, a great many of these people were completely successful, business owners, professionals and so on.

LOA dictates that nothing ever happens that is not a vibrational match to the participants. Vibrational match refers to the predominate thought energy, which does not necessarily match one's true desires. LOA is not judgemental; it is simply a gear in the machine.

So, yes, the Jews, and anyone else who is a victim of crime, is cocreating the experience with the vibrations of their predominate thoughts.

Of course the progression of events and the political climate leading up to the holocaust did not happen in 24 hours. The negative emotions certainly built over a period of time, ultimately becoming very powerful, and ultimately leading to outright expectation of persecution.

As far as the specifics regarding the horrific manner of death, the universe delivers either the exact focus point, or the essense of it.

Since they got what they deserved (or attracted), would you find the actual murderers not culpable for what happened to the people they killed?

'Attracted' is the better word. 'Deserved' has a connotation of human judgement, which is notoriously flawed, and just a downright mess. The only time Abraham uses the term deserve is in the positive sense. Iow, we deserve to be happy, live free, explore the universe on our own terms, and to be connected to Source (God).

The murderers played 50% of the role in the 'eyes' of LOA. It is cocreation. It is a vibrational match, which is the primary function of LOA mechanism.

I understand how twisted some of these ideas can seem at first, at least some aspects of them. I reacted the same way initially, and I have not forced myself into any new position. The ideas are gradually making more sense to me, but I would never call pain and suffering a good thing, and I would always desire to minimize it.

I find your system morally reprehensible. Since, as others have pointed out, there's no evidence at all that the universe does act the way you claim, it's a strange thing to choose to believe.

I understand. Believe me, I did not just jump on this out of no where. I was raised, and spent most of my life, believing in crime and punishment, judging and condemning, brute force to ensure safety, ect. This has been a life long quest to discover the key that so many have sought after, and failed.

I believe that I have found it. I could never hope to explain how. It is intuition, combined with experience, and motivated by so many of those traditional thinkers that I have watched who claimed to have solutions and only made things worse.

This is the Holy Grail, imo. It is true key to 'mind over matter'.
 
I believe that I have found it. I could never hope to explain how. It is intuition, combined with experience

I know how LoA may feel right intuitively, but feelings can be manipulated. The leaders of the LoA movement are very smart. They have their followers' money. Their followers ... not so smart.

That's not sarcasm. Think of it as tough love.
 
Ok, fire away!


I have nothing to say to you.

I don't see any reason to waste my time.

I'm only bothering to post my feelings on how uninteresting I find your beliefs because it gives me momentary pleasure.

You aren't even woo.
 
Last edited:
I don't understand at all. We live in 3 spatial dimensions (length, width, and height, or x,y and z, or whatever you choose to call them), with the conventional "4th" being time. LOA works through a time buffer in a spatial dimension? So you can measure it in inches or meters? Huhn?

I don't have the details, just the general idea.

Or could it be you have no idea what the word "dimension" means? Or it's a metaphorical dimension (just like the "vibrations" that aren't really vibrations)?

Dimension being a 'vibrational plane'.

And then you talk about a natural vs. artificial phenomenon--which again makes no sense if you're claiming LOA is simply a law of how the universe works. How could a law of the universe be artificial?

Natural meaning an integral component of the 3rd dimension, vs. artificial meaning imposed by technology, per the 'governers' of the earth system.
 
Do you have any evidence that any humans ever had three or more strands of DNA? Why just humans and not any other living thing with DNA in its cells?

No evidence, but this is the story of Atlantis and the origins of modern man. It was only humans because we were chosen for the grand experiment. The general idea was to create an advanced species for souls to embody.
 
Sure, you can have an expectation of what will be there. That does not at all mean you will be correct. This is easily provable; shut your eyes now visualize a platinum brick in front of you, open your eyes with the expectation of it being there.
Go on, try it.

I'm not saying it would be correct, or even close, every time. But observation induces thoughts, even if extremely subtle, and those thoughts affect the equation, although the effect could be trivial.

Do you really think if the secret worked, and had been known about for so long, the world would be in the state that it is?

Yes, it is very possible. There are countless things that human beings know how to do, technically speaking, which would improve life in many ways, and move humanity forward, bit by bit, but for various reasons, we choose not to do them. Here's a couple off the top of my head:

* We have enough food, and the means to grow and deliver food, to feed the starving, but instead, we let them die, or, we pat ourselves on the back for supplying them with the 'rough' version of Malt-O-Meal...........decade, after decade, after decade....

* Mass transportation. Some places have it, like Europe, and the top 10 U.S. cities, but America specifically (since that's what I'm most familiar with), opts to go the greedy and wasteful way.

There are many, many more, of various subjects and magnitude, going all the way down to the fat American, fresh off the triple bypass, who goes straight back to the burger and fries 3 meals a day.

We know better on so many different subjects, but human nature is filled with ironies, and great new ideas and even rock solid science aren't always enough to sway the masses into making the better choice.

Let me tell you a true story.

I know someone (Sue) who was very into the secret. She had the book, the DVD, and was utterly convinced of it. Now, a few months after she had gotten into the secret, her house was burgled and some very precious things with a lot of sentimental value were stolen.

Upon examining this situation (and the millions like it that happen every day), it is pretty clear that the secret it not true.
The burglar was getting what he wanted - does this mean he knows the secret?

She did not want to get robbed, so why did it happen to her, if she is responsible for creating her own reality?

How did you examine the situation? The problem the skeptics here continue to have, is they are trying, as you're doing here, do define LOA for us, which obviously will not work, if anything is to work.

The only significant detail you gave me here was that she was 'utterly convinced'. But based on everything that I've laid out in this thread so far, it should be clear than simply 'being convinced' of the validity of LOA is not enough by itself.

There are numerous variables in the equation. Let me give you a short list, as the long one would kill me.

* How many minutes a day did she work with it from beginning to event A?
* Where was she on the emotional guidance ladder at Start, and event A? What was her overall emotional swing like during the timeframe?
* Did she have any lapses, i.e., days where she did not actively do workshops and meditations?
* What is the typical duration of negative emotional swings? And positive? How far on the ladder does she swing?
* Does she meditate, or only do dreamwork? How long for each? How much of a hike in emotional state is achieved in each one?
* How many negative events does she experience in an average day? How many recurring negative events and interactions does she see and/or expect in a day/week?
* When encountering negative thoughts, what actions does she take, if any?
* What kind of dreamwork does she do? What is included? Just financial stuff, or also safety, security, peace, health, ect? What is the emotional gain from the safety/security bit?
* When asked, does she genuinely feel as if she has made real progress, or is she uncertain?
* What is here strongest negative, regular thought? How long does it last? How does she counter it? Does she feel like the counter balancing works?
* What is her strongest positive thought..........?
* What kind of news does she listen to? Does she routinely hear stories of breakins, robberies, rapes, murders, stalkers, wife beaters, ect. Does she make an effort to tune into these stories, or avoid them?
* How does she feel when hearing these stories? How long does the emotion last? What methods does she use to counter balance? Does she feel like it works?
* What is her exact understanding of LOA? Does she perhaps misunderstand parts of it?
* How in tune is she to her subtle emotional guidance system? Can she focus away from a thought within 5 seconds of creation?
* and on and on and on and on and on and on.

I simply cannot stress enough, that if you want to understand the LOA in any capacity, then you must be educated on it the same way as anything else, even if you think its' bogus. Otherwise, there is zero point in discussing it because you will be attempting to refute an idea that doesn't even exist in the LOA community, as you will be making up your own LOA, refuting it, and then attributing to the actual LOA believers! I believe this is called a Strawman.


How does the LOA determine what is a good thing, and what is a bad thing? The robbery was a good thing for the robber, and a bad thing for the victim. Did the robber use the LOA to complete a successful burglary? If Sue knew the secret and was only attracting good things, then why did she get burgled?

LOA does not concern itself with good vs. bad, as these are all defined on the fly anyway, and change on a whim. LOA is not like the God of the old testament, flying around shoving lightning bolts up the wazoos of various pagan freaks.

LOA is, for the purpose of this discussion, a mechanism which I believe will ultimately be discovered by science and become part of modern physics.

Also, if you want to use the observer effect as your explanation, you need to abandon the cosmic vibration theory (which is complete rubbish, as we know scientifically that opposites attract) because these are incompatible.
The cosmic vibration lie (LOA) states that you exist in a universe that you can shape using your feelings and thoughts by vibrating correctly.
The observer effect lie states that you create your own reality. Therefore you are not existing in a universe that would respond to your vibration, you would be living out a dream which is constructed via your thoughts.
They are contradictory.

Opposites attract as a matter of the design of the system. The opposite's you see attracting are on the 'surface'. The inner workings are attracting likes. Abraham, and many others, tell us that the universe is completely conscious on every level, all the way down to the quark and beyond. These conscious entities have their own 'desires', the same as us, albeit very basic.

Put simply, the opposite's desire to attract each other, as that is what they need to exist, or to take a certain form. The actual 'like' in the equation is the conscious desire emitted by both opposites, to attract the other. The desire is a match, therefore they come together.

If the observer effect is real, then from my opinion i have created you StarSeed, and you are not real. I can turn you into a frog, merely by making that my reality. However, you know this is not true, because you are a real person. From your perspective, if you believed this "create your own reality" nonsense, then I am not real, and are just a figment of your imagination. I know this is not true.

No, again, you are misunderstanding. LOA allows you to control what enters your 'personal sphere' of reality. It does not allow you to interfere with another's reality unless they allow you to. And there is nothing regarding the Secret that says that the universe is merely the figment of one person's imagination, so we just have to play marco polo to figure out who it is!
 
I just thought of an analogy I'd like to toss in, regarding the attempt to oversimplify LOA.

If I do not know how to fly a plane, but I get in a 747, fiddle around for awhile, and manage to drive it down the runway and wreck it at the end of the strip, could I then conclude that airplanes are a bunch of BS and couldn't possibly fly?

That would be ridiculous! I would be told, "Well, obviously you have to learn how to fly them, get some practice with an instructor, make a few mistakes, work through them, get certified, and THEN you will see that airplanes are a bona fide technology that really does work.

So, please, when you point out someone who is a believer, and who says they 'feel good' all the time, and then all hell breaks loose, ......I assure you there's more to the story.

LOA really isn't that complicated, but the ins and outs still must be learned, monitored, practiced and you must stick with it!
 
Last edited:
If the LOA were true, I should be able to wish really hard for the LOA to not work on anybody who is relying on it.

I am only one person, but if LOA does not turn out to be a dependable, I could claim that my LOA powers were superior to everyone else's!
 
LOA dictates that nothing ever happens that is not a vibrational match to the participants. Vibrational match refers to the predominate thought energy, which does not necessarily match one's true desires.
<snip>

So, yes, the Jews, and anyone else who is a victim of crime, is cocreating the experience with the vibrations of their predominate thoughts.
The thoughts of every one of the 6 million killed in the death camps were predominated by starvation and murder? That's absurd.

Just recently a nutjob opened fire in the City Council meeting in Kirkwood, MO, a suburb of St. Louis where I live. Some of the people killed had no connection to the shooter at all. But their deaths were attracted by their "predominate thought energy" (which seems to be a BS way of saying "what they thought about most of the time"). I'm certain that none of the people murdered were especially negative-minded people.

Of course the progression of events and the political climate leading up to the holocaust did not happen in 24 hours. The negative emotions certainly built over a period of time, ultimately becoming very powerful, and ultimately leading to outright expectation of persecution.
But you're saying that the victims were 50% responsible for their plight (and the murderous perpetrators only 50% responsible). You're saying what separated a person who died in the death camps from one who escaped was their thinking.

That's just ridiculous.

I don't have the details, just the general idea.
Details, like what the third dimension is?
You haven't had elementary geometry? So you think you can converse on speculative theories of physics but you don't know the very basics?
Dimension being a 'vibrational plane'.
The words "vibration" and "plane" have real meanings, but since you don't even know what the 3rd dimension is, it's obvious that these are just cool-sounding words that have no real meaning the way you use them.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom