Subjectivity and Science

Nick227,

I'm reading the whole thread, but as it has many pages and my time is limited I have yet to reach the part in which you mention something about non duality. Care to tell me why do you think it is important, in which terms do you consider it and your experience in the field?

Thanks.

Hi BDZ,

I consider non-duality a dissolver of problems! My experience is personal and I've been around a few advaitists and teachers here and there. I'm fairly familiar with Ramana Maharshi, Osho, Advaita Vedanta, but I'm really much more into humanism, therapy, community and friendship.

Nick
 
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See, what you're really saying is that there is no difference, besides that you feel like there is a difference... which in my mind means no difference at all. It is like telling me that water will taste colder, even though it will still actually be the same temperature.

There's no sensory difference, no. However, you need to account for the impact of a lifetime's conceptualisations that have occurred previously. These can have formed quite strong imprints energetically and physically. There may need to be a considerable rearrangement in how the body moves and holds energy and feeling.

You will have been used to dealing with the world through the me/not me filter. Now, suddenly, this filter is no longer present. Everything is just happening...to no one! Although there's nothing different sensorily, it can be a massive shock at an ego level.

Nick
 
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I don't understand Bodhi either. And I've long had Martillo on ignore... so I only read his incomprehensible blurbs when he appears in other posts.

I don't care rather materialism makes assumptions or not-- I just want to know what the hell someone else has proposed that is different and what are assumptions go with those. To me, non materialists discussing consciousness are like creationists discussing evolution. They are poking at something robust, hoping to kill it-- because they do not want it to be true, but they never offer anything better while implying that they secretly "know" of some better explanation.

I think they never propose their alternative, because they know it would stink next to the established mode. It's useless except as a meme to make them feel like they know something while knowing nothing at all.

Sorry if this has been answered already, but I'll take a quick shot.

I think your point is well taken, for there really isn't a terribly good alternative as far as explanations of our consciousness is concerned (unless one views our consciousness as part of some cosmic consciousness, which is an alternative) unless they invoke some form of property dualism.

Some idealists begin with Descartes' cogito and feel that thought is the origin. We are sure that thought exists because to question it involves using it (doubt being a form of thought). So, since we can be sure of the existence of thought, perhaps thought is the origin of all that is. That's fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't take you very far when examined critically. In fact it doesn't take you anywhere, just as radical doubt -- taking a materialist perspective -- leaves us bereft, by the same roadside.

The world obviously works on some basic principles. We examine those principles and call it science, but science itself doesn't particularly care whether or not the "stuff" out there is "material" or "ideal"; it just doesn't matter. Science does not ask the deep ontological questions because it hasn't a hope of answering them. You can start from a materialist perspective or an idealist perspective and you should see the same reality.

Now some idealists (but certainly not all) fudge a bit and pretend that whatever cosmic consciousness there is that creates what we experience as material reality somehow also participates in our consciousness in some special way (not just through brain function itself). Or they speak in a way that leads you to think that we can somehow tap into the cosmic consciousness, as though we act in some way that precludes the rules of the "material universe" (understood within idealism as the product of the cosmic consciousness, for want of a better term). But a very little thought should reveal that this is simply a form of property dualism. We appear to be material beings -- this includes our brain, which everyone agrees is the locus of thought (or, at the very least, the conduit for thought) -- so we must work according to whatever constraining principles are created by the cosmic consciousness, or the material realm. Any attempt to add something else to the equation outside the function of the brain, if any idealist concedes that the brain is somehow involved, invokes a different property of the ultimate substance (whatever it is).

Whether or not 'reality' is ultimately 'thought' or 'matter', it shouldn't matter one bit as far as what we can see through scientific or philosophical endeavor. We are the products of whatever this ultimate reality is.

The further step we must all take, regardless of your form of monism, is that there is no such thing as "me" or "us" properly speaking. "We" are merely constructed bits of ultimate reality. The only 'thing' that really "is" is reality itself.

The only real alternative is to believe that we are not individuals in any way, but merely reflections of the cosmic consciousness/ultimate reality.
 
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There's no sensory difference, no. However, you need to account for the impact of a lifetime's conceptualisations that have occurred previously. These can have formed quite strong imprints energetically and physically. There may need to be a considerable rearrangement in how the body moves and holds energy and feeling.

You will have been used to dealing with the world through the me/not me filter. Now, suddenly, this filter is no longer present. Everything is just happening...to no one! Although there's nothing different sensorily, it can be a massive shock at an ego level.

Nick
This sounds an awful like a self-aggrandizing delusion, that you have adopted to make yourself feel more important and special than other people, without having to actually do any work.
 
Strawmans? You can do better. Pixy is full of nonsense. Here, just for the sake of it (because I can see now that you are not willing to discuss).

Pixy said: "Consciousness is a function of the brain"

UTTERLY RUBBISH

Consciousness is deeply related to the brain but it needs more than a brain to, well, perform. No, sorry to disappoint you, nothing magical, just perceptions, and a world, and other consciousness, and a language.


Just a question, BDZ, how do these other functions -- perception, language, etc. -- differ from brain function? The world, I grant you, differs, and we are all wrong to put the behaviors we call 'consciousness' in the brain alone -- it is a series of behaviors that involve interaction with the world but depends critically on the body (which includes the brain), IMHO.

In other words, I'm not so sure that I see what is utter rubbish in what PixyMisa said.
 
Good example! Tell me then, what about test-tube born children? What about cloned cells that we are able to grow in to adults? Guess that doesn't show anything.

Oh and I already saw that Pixy applauded your example. WTG!

Something else in mind?


What about them. Your point was that if we understood something we should be able to recreate that something. That is a straw man. It doesn't further any argument you are trying to put forward nor does it negate materialism.
 
Hi BDZ,

I consider non-duality a dissolver of problems! My experience is personal and I've been around a few advaitists and teachers here and there. I'm fairly familiar with Ramana Maharshi, Osho, Advaita Vedanta, but I'm really much more into humanism and therapy.

Nick

Thanks Nick. As you might have noted, I'm pretty familiar with such concepts. Now, I'm also a skeptic so I know that most of the people who believes (or want to believe) in philosophies like Advaita Vedanta are also looking to drive the car when they are unable to even reach the pedals.

In other words, there are to many woos pursuing anything that show them "a way out" to some of the materialistic theories of western cultures that it is difficult to see who is who at first sight. One way to recognize them is that woos tend to simply deny some the philosophical approaches of western cultures, and not only that, too many of them also believe in reincarnation, souls, mind powers and a whole bunch of nonsense in general.

Now, people in this forum deal with some of the most naive woos all the time, and so, to a point, I understand that they find it easy to disregard anyone who doesn't believe what they believe as simply "woos". This a mistake of course.

As for me, this puts me in a difficult position because, in general, I share with them the feeling towards "normal" woos, BUT I also have the same feeling regarding some of them (as I see them as pseudo skeptics or naive materialists and not real skeptics).

I believe that the right path is to see things from a broader perspective, showing woos why they should learn critical thinking and be able to present good arguments, but also encompassing (and not deny for convenience) fairly better world-views like materialism in the process.

One of the things I'm doing in my life is working in such model, and I might present the members of JREF a simplified version of it one of this days. But for now my point to you is that, at least in this forum, when dealing with obscure notions like "non duality" it is advisable to do it in terms that also denote a compromise with facts instead of pure subjective "feelings". Something that can be very difficult, not because it can't be done, but because nobody has done it.

This (hopefully) can helps us all to differentiate between ignorant woos and people who believe different but can't be simply labeled as a woo.
 
What about them. Your point was that if we understood something we should be able to recreate that something. That is a straw man. It doesn't further any argument you are trying to put forward nor does it negate materialism.

WHAT ABOUT THEM????????? Please, don't insult my intelligence. It is my point that if we understand something we should be able to recreate it, and your your attempt to prove me wrong was that we do understand how the uterus works, but we are unable to build one (you also used the heart as an example, but even Pixy noticed that you were wrong there).

So here I go, again. Test-tube born babies proves that we are perfectly able to replicate the function of an uterus. Deal with it.
 
Just a question........

Non-duality, to me, on the surface of it, and looking from the view of ontology, can mean two very different things -- either monism or pluralism.

Is this term meant to refer to an ontologic stance? If so, is it really just another term form for monism?
 
WHAT ABOUT THEM????????? Please, don't insult my intelligence. It is my point that if we understand something we should be able to recreate it, and your your attempt to prove me wrong was that we do understand how the uterus works, but we are unable to build one (you also used the heart as an example, but even Pixy noticed that you were wrong there).

So here I go, again. Test-tube born babies proves that we are perfectly able to replicate the function of an uterus. Deal with it.

Excuse you? Babies are conceived in fallopian tubes, not uteri. The embryos attaches to the uterus where it forms a placenta to get nutrients through the organ which we have not recreated. And even if we did, your analogy is still flawed. Not being able to recreate something is not on par with not understanding it.

We understand evolution... we can't recreate it.
 
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Excuse you? Babies are conceived in fallopian tubes, not uteri. The embryos attaches to the uterus where it forms a placenta to get nutrients through the organ which we have not recreated. And even if we did, your analogy is still flawed. Not being able to recreate something is not on par with not understanding it.

We understand evolution... we can't recreate it.

Sure we can. Not the historical course of it, but the process of it. Darwin's first chapter was all about human selection.

Re: the uterus -- I don't think that we can say that we completely understand anything about the human body in great detail. There are many missing bits to our knowledge. We understand the uterus superficially. We don't know how all the biochemistry works in any cells to any great degree; but your point is well-taken -- there are some problems that are prohibitively complex from an engineering perspective.

Though BDZ is correct -- we could, in theory, make something that we thoroughly understood, even if we might not be able to do it very easily because of cost/engineering issues.
 
Sure we can. Not the historical course of it, but the process of it. Darwin's first chapter was all about human selection.

Re: the uterus -- I don't think that we can say that we completely understand anything about the human body in great detail. There are many missing bits to our knowledge. We understand the uterus superficially. We don't know how all the biochemistry works in any cells to any great degree; but your point is well-taken -- there are some problems that are prohibitively complex from an engineering perspective.

Though BDZ is correct -- we could, in theory, make something that we thoroughly understood, even if we might not be able to do it very easily because of cost/engineering issues.

But he's incorrect to assume that if science can't explain something sufficiently that some other guru can. He's using the gaps in knowledge to insert his own beliefs. We can never know everything there is to know about consciousness, evolution, gravity, or anything. Not being able to recreate something is not an argument FOR any other explanation nor an argument against the explanation that best fits the observed facts.

What does BDZ believe differently than a materialist and how does it describe or help us understand consciousness better than the current model? To me, he (presumption of gender) is doing exactly what creationists are doing when they make implications about evolution, but never offer any evidence in support of an alternative. They win in their heads by knocking down scientists and pretending it supports their alternative delusion.
 
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And, unfortunately, tons of brain damage [with hallucinogens]... which is the opposite of "consciousness expanding" in my opinion. :rolleyes:
I'm not sure that is evidence based, Joe. Were you thinking of specific hallucinogens? Solvents cause serious brain damage. Not sure about all hallucinogens, however.
 
Just a question, BDZ, how do these other functions -- perception, language, etc. -- differ from brain function? The world, I grant you, differs, and we are all wrong to put the behaviors we call 'consciousness' in the brain alone -- it is a series of behaviors that involve interaction with the world but depends critically on the body (which includes the brain), IMHO.

In other words, I'm not so sure that I see what is utter rubbish in what PixyMisa said.

Let's take language, for instance. We can't develop a language on our own, we need to interact with other minds (so to speak) in order to learn language from them. And (important detail), language is a core component of human consciousness. Not to mention that we can only talk and think about "brains" and "consciousness" when we know a language.

Pixy's account of consciousness being "a function of the brain" is what is rubbish, to put it in nicer words, it just demonstrates how naive is her POV in a way she understands, this is, using the words she love to use to demonstrate her "superiority".
 
Just a question........

Non-duality, to me, on the surface of it, and looking from the view of ontology, can mean two very different things -- either monism or pluralism.

Is this term meant to refer to an ontologic stance? If so, is it really just another term form for monism?

By definition, "non duality" is a monistic approach, and yes, it can be taken as a form of ontological stance.
 
But he's incorrect to assume that if science can't explain something sufficiently that some other guru can. He's using the gaps in knowledge to insert his own beliefs. We can never know everything there is to know about consciousness, evolution, gravity, or anything. Not being able to recreate something is not an argument FOR any other explanation nor an argument against the explanation that best fits the observed facts.

What does BDZ believe differently than a materialist and how does it describe or help us understand consciousness better than the current model? To me, he (presumption of gender) is doing exactly what creationists are doing when they make implications about evolution, but never offer any evidence in support of an alternative. They win in their heads by knocking down scientists and pretending it supports their alternative delusion.


I think you might want to give him a little more credit than that. Take a step back and listen to what he actually has to say. I don't think those charges fit BDZ at all from what I have seen in the past.
 
I think Pixy is a male. What are you proposing other than consciousness being a brain function?

Good question, thanks. Some of the answers are on this thread, one exactly above this post of yours. The brain obviously has a part in the equation, but brains alone do not produce consciousness. Can you get back and read some of the comments I posted? I have to go right now, will get back in a few hours.
 
Let's take language, for instance. We can't develop a language on our own, we need to interact with other minds (so to speak) in order to learn language from them. And (important detail), language is a core component of human consciousness. Not to mention that we can only talk and think about "brains" and "consciousness" when we know a language.

Pixy's account of consciousness being "a function of the brain" is what is rubbish, to put it in nicer words, it just demonstrates how naive is her POV in a way she understands, this is, using the words she love to use to demonstrate her "superiority".

Granted, and I agree with you. I think, given the chance, that Pixy would probably ammend his comment and agree with you. Saying that consciousness is a 'function of the brain' is often short-hand, leaving out a huge swath of what actually transpires but used as a means to cut out the common wooness that is blithely thrown about.
 
I think you might want to give him a little more credit than that. Take a step back and listen to what he actually has to say. I don't think those charges fit BDZ at all from what I have seen in the past.

:) thanks for that comment Ichneumonwasp. Maybe it is the way I entered this particular discussion.
 

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