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Republican Primary Structure Distorted McCain's Popularity

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The media and the Mac supporters have all been exaggerating John McCain's popularity in the recent primaries.

If I was to ask you how many more votes did McCain get than Romney, I bet you would say twice as many. But, that wouldn't even be close.

Here are vote totals so far...

McCain....4.7 million
Romney....4.4 million

Close, isn't it? Because the delegate count doesn't reflect this. Why? This happened because of the distorted proportion of votes.

Some states had winner take all. Some were proportioned by districts won and some, I have no idea how they distributed them. In fact, some states still have not given all their delegates out.

It was luck of the draw that McCain had huge leads in winner take all states and it made the rest of the states rather mute as he would have had to come in last in all the rest to make it a race. If the winner take all states were proportioned, we would still have a race much like the Democrat Party. In fact, change the Dems big states to winner take all, and Hillary is the likely runner away favorite to win.

I think it's rather unfair to have so many different ways to distribute delegates as to not reflect the will of the people.

Anyone know why they do it this way? Why some states distribute them in so many confusing ways
 
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Because the system is rigged. It's a contrived system that makes people think they have a say in our 'democratic' process.

Between the electoral college and the 'super delegates' another elitist is on his or her way to the White House.
 
Because the system is rigged. It's a contrived system that makes people think they have a say in our 'democratic' process.

Between the electoral college and the 'super delegates' another elitist is on his or her way to the White House.

Bursting bubbles makes one unpopular. ;)

This is an example of the common reaction:
 
Because the system is rigged. It's a contrived system that makes people think they have a say in our 'democratic' process.

Between the electoral college and the 'super delegates' another elitist is on his or her way to the White House.

You've convinced me, let us go back to the days when party bosses did the picking.
 
McCain got just a few more votes than Romney. So what? He got them where it counted. Everyone played by the same rules. And I say that as someone who would have preferred both Giuliani and Romney to McCain.
 
The media and the Mac supporters have all been exaggerating John McCain's popularity in the recent primaries.

If I was to ask you how many more votes did McCain get than Romney, I bet you would say twice as many. But, that wouldn't even be close.

Here are vote totals so far...

McCain....4.7 million
Romney....4.4 million

Source, please?

Close, isn't it? Because the delegate count doesn't reflect this. Why? This happened because of the distorted proportion of votes.

Some states had winner take all. Some were proportioned by districts won and some, I have no idea how they distributed them. In fact, some states still have not given all their delegates out.

You could look it up.

It was luck of the draw that McCain had huge leads in winner take all states and it made the rest of the states rather mute as he would have had to come in last in all the rest to make it a race. If the winner take all states were proportioned, we would still have a race much like the Democrat Party. In fact, change the Dems big states to winner take all, and Hillary is the likely runner away favorite to win.

You speak like having a race much like the Democrats is something to be desired. In fact, most observers believe that wrapping up the race early is a distinct advantage for the GOP. McCain can start declaring a significant proportion of his donations as general election funds, something he would not be able to do if he were still battling Romney.

In fact, McCain had huge leads in a few winner take all states--New York, New Jersey and Connecticut, notably, and had those states' delegates been awarded by, say, congressional district there would not have been a significant difference in the number of delegates he won there. Evidence? Look at California, where they're still working out the totals, but the delegates were awarded in each district. McCain won the state by 10 percentage points over Romney. Currently, he has been awarded 152 delegates. Romney has garnered six. Given that McCain won the mid-Atlantic states by even larger margins, it is extremely unlikely that he would have suffered more than a token loss of delegates.

He won narrowly in Florida and Missouri, and had those state delegations been awarded proportionally or congressionally, he clearly would lose some delegates. But Mitt would lose some in Colorado.

I think it's rather unfair to have so many different ways to distribute delegates as to not reflect the will of the people.

And you call yourself a conservative? One of the bedrock principles of conservatism is that we believe in fairness when it comes to opportunity, but not fairness when it comes to outcomes. This principle underlies much conservative thought. For an example, consider affirmative action. Suppose a (reasonably prestigious) school requires 700 SATs on all three portions of the exam and a 3.5 GPA to enter. If their student body turns out to be 10% Oriental, 80% white, 5% black and 5% Hispanic, well that is or should be fine with conservatives--everybody had the opportunity to meet the criteria which were well-known in advance. Somebody interested in fairness of outcomes would say that the student body should be (roughly) 3% Oriental, 71% white, 13% black and 13% Hispanic. Hence affirmative action.

The same applies to the elections. Conservatives believe in laying out the rules and enforcing them, but beyond that they do not obsess with fair outcomes.

McCain was actually severely hampered by the fact that Iowa comes first in the events people pay attention to, because his longstanding antipathy to ethanol subsidies means that he is unable to garner a lot of support in a state where corn-growing is a major industry (even though the largest newspaper endorsed him).

New Hampshire? Mitt Romney's face was beamed into the homes of most of the people in the state from Boston TV stations on a regular basis. He owned a vacation home there, and spent a great deal of money on TV advertising.

South Carolina? The veteran population helped McCain there, but Fred Thomson was from a neighboring state and Mike Huckabee had the Southern thing going as well.

Anyone know why they do it this way? Why some states distribute them in so many confusing ways.

The primary system has developed over the years. Originally there were only a few primaries and no chance that anybody could win enough delegates in them to run to the nomination. That was determined in the genuine smoke-filled rooms of the day, where deals would be hammered out. The purpose of primaries was for candidates to prove to the party bosses in those hazy rooms that they could actually get people to pull the lever for them (quite literally, back then). In fact, the hope of the best candidates was that they wouldn't have to run in a lot of them, that they could put together a good enough showing in a few selected states.

For an excellent description of this era, I recommend The Making of the President, 1960 by Ted White. One of the classics of the genre.

In 1968 things changed. The antiwar movement made strong inroads into the Democrats and as a result, LBJ declined to seek reelection. The antiwar candidates won many or most of the primaries, and yet when the nomination was given it was to the sitting VP, Hubert Humphrey, who planned to continue the Johnson strategy on the war.

As a result, the antiwar groups decided to take over the Democrats. They challenged pro-war Democrats where they could, and took over the lower echelons of the party apparatus (precinct and county committees). They demanded that more states have primaries and that more of the delegates be awarded based on the primaries, so that the party bosses could not ignore the will of the people. The result was the McGovern fiasco.

At the time, most of the primaries were still awarded on a winner-take-all basis. But in their quest for fairness, the liberals found yet another cause to embrace. Was it really fair that one candidate might receive 51% of the vote while the other 49% and yet the delegates all went to the former. Nay! So they began to go to various proportional schemes.

For example suppose a district has a 60%-40% split between two real candidates, and four delegates to award. What is the "fairest" way to split that up? It's to give 2 delegates to each candidate, because if you gave 3-1, that's a 75-25% split, or 15 percentage points off the actual outcome, versus 50%-50% which is only 10 percentage points off.

On the other hand, suppose another district has 3 delegates, and the vote comes in 51% to 49%? Not hard to figure that one out, the first guy gets twice as many delegates. See how hard it is when you try to ensure a fair outcome?

Caucuses have been around for a long time, and they make a lot of sense. The idea is to reward those who have actually borne the burden of doing the party's business, generally on a volunteer basis. These people are presumably much more involved and knowledgeable about politics than the voters at large.

I rather like the current system. If anything, I would like to see more winner-take-all states in the primaries for the Republicans because there is no prize for finishing second in a state in the general election.
 
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McCain got just a few more votes than Romney. So what? He got them where it counted. Everyone played by the same rules. And I say that as someone who would have preferred both Giuliani and Romney to McCain.

Don't candidates generally go to the base in the primaries? Why was this different?


McCain is a guarantee Hillary win. Much like when Hunk Hogan wrestles The Iron Sheik. ;)
 
Because the system is rigged. It's a contrived system that makes people think they have a say in our 'democratic' process.

Between the electoral college and the 'super delegates' another elitist is on his or her way to the White House.

Then why the heck do you even vote if it's rigged? I bet this is another case of Ron Paul losing = system rigged. However if Ron Paul won it would be the sheeple waking up.
 
Then why the heck do you even vote if it's rigged? I bet this is another case of Ron Paul losing = system rigged. However if Ron Paul won it would be the sheeple waking up.

Do you really think that anyone has a chance outside of Hillary?

You are watching a show.

How about you change your sig to: JEROME IS THE GREATEST, if Hillary wins?
 
Don't candidates generally go to the base in the primaries? Why was this different?


McCain is a guarantee Hillary win. Much like when Hunk Hogan wrestles The Iron Sheik. ;)
Hulk Hogan.

Mrs. BPSCG may be the only true middle-of-the-roader I know. She told me this evening she'll vote for McCain. She doesn't trust Clinton, thinks every word that comes out of her mouth is a lie. And she says Obama is just too slick, and she doesn't trust that, either.

I'm very surprised, frankly. I know she wouldn't vote for McCain if he were a hardcore conservative, but thought even his moderate conservatism would be too much for her. She and I both came to the same conclusion, from opposite directions.
 
The "winner takes all" type of primary can indeed lead to quick capture of the primary by a candidate, even if the total votes are close. Perhaps the Republicans do this because the electoral system in the general election works the same way. I think it is a mistake though. Romney (et. al.) are saying they need to focus on not beating each other up, but I think that is the opposite of what they need.

Now Clinton and Obama will capture all the headlines for the next couple of months, while McCain will be railing at them from the sidelines.

For my own part, it makes my decision easier. I didn't know whether to vote in the Republican primary or the Democratic one (Texas is an open state). Now the GOP race is moot.
 
The "winner takes all" type of primary can indeed lead to quick capture of the primary by a candidate, even if the total votes are close. Perhaps the Republicans do this because the electoral system in the general election works the same way. I think it is a mistake though. Romney (et. al.) are saying they need to focus on not beating each other up, but I think that is the opposite of what they need.

Now Clinton and Obama will capture all the headlines for the next couple of months, while McCain will be railing at them from the sidelines.

For my own part, it makes my decision easier. I didn't know whether to vote in the Republican primary or the Democratic one (Texas is an open state). Now the GOP race is moot.
Which is better: A relatively quick victory and a presumptive nominee so you can work on the 'party unity thing'; Or a protracted and increasingly divisive battle, where the chairman of the DNC is threatening to take the decision entirely out of the delegates' hands if there is not resolution before the end of March?
 
Luckily for millions of foreigners who would be nuked by Rambo McCain, he won't stand a chance against Clinton or Obama. Unfortunately for the American public, the next presidency will either be a 4 year long "You Go Girl" concert or a "We Shall Overcome" rally.
 
Which is better: A relatively quick victory and a presumptive nominee so you can work on the 'party unity thing'; Or a protracted and increasingly divisive battle, where the chairman of the DNC is threatening to take the decision entirely out of the delegates' hands if there is not resolution before the end of March?
I think the latter. It is marginally better to stay in the headlines than to avoid disparaging remarks. In truth though, it doesn't make a ton of difference. There is plenty of time between the primaries and the general election for our ADD voters in the US to forget any rancor as long as the losers come down strongly in favor of the nominee.
 
When I heard Romney had dropped out, I was stunned, but I came up with a theory to explain it. It was one of those theories that flashed into your head for about 12 seconds until you realize how ridiculous it is.

Now I'm seeing the results of today's contests, and it doesn't look so ridiculous. It has morphed all the way to far fetched.

Here's the theory:

On Super Tuesday, McCain racked up a huge, presumably undefeatable, delegate margin. However, he didn't win a majority in any state. It was obvious that there were two conservatives and McCain, and the two conservatives were going to keep splitting votes. Between Huckabee and Romney, Huckabee was going to win where there were huge numbers of Baptists who weren't going to vote for a Mormon as long at least as long as there was a Baptist in the race. Romney would win in elsewhere. However, in the three way race, McCain would win a lot of states, including almost all the big ones, because the conservative votes were split.

If Romney could have talked Huckabee out of the race, it was clear Romney would win the nomination, but Huckabee wasn't going to get out. Instead, Romney quits. Why? The crackpot theory that occurred to me was that by quitting, Romney could throw an awful lot of states to Huckabee, because the Limbaugh wing wasn't going to vote for McCain as long as there was an alternative. Maybe there would be enough states that went for the sole remaining conservative that McCain could actually be denied a majority.

Then, in a brokered convention, Romney gets picked.

OK, it's a crackpot idea. I put it out of my mind until today. Then today, after everyone said, "With Romney out, McCain is the nominee," as of this moment McCain has lost two out of three contests, and is "leading" in Washington with 26% of the vote.

You have to ask whether McCain can win a two way contest with Huckabee, and if it's obvious that he can't, would it make sense for him to be the nominee? Of course, maybe what happened is that the McCain voters just got complacent today, while the Huckabee, Romney, and Paul folks still felt like they had something to prove. Perhaps John will rally the troops a little more seriously on Tuesday when he sees that the nomination isn't really in the bag just yet.

It's kind of weird. I've never voted for a Republican for President, but I was thinking about it with McCain. I like him, and I don't like Clinton or Obama very much. If I were sure the Dems would keep at least one house of Congress, McCain would give us divided government, which I think is a great thing.

Well, there's plenty of room for weirdness between now and August. I guess we'll see where this goes.

ETA: And there has to be a better way to pick a President.
 

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