US founded on "Christian Principles"?

[skeptical]

I have heard this mantra, or something similar, repeated many times in recent days: "The US is founded on Christian Principles"

Now, I have read the US Constitution many times. I have taken a Constitutional law course. I have even waded through some of "The common law". And I cannot for the life of me figure out what this phrase is supposed to mean.

As far as I can tell, there are no Christian principles in the US Constitution, with the possible exception of the endorsement of slavery.

I understand that the people making these statements really aren't even trying to do an analysis, its just something they think sounds good. But is there even the remotest shred of evidence behind this claim?

 

[Nogbad]

I have heard this mantra, or something similar, repeated many times in recent days: "The US is founded on Christian Principles"

Now, I have read the US Constitution many times. I have taken a Constitutional law course. I have even waded through some of "The common law". And I cannot for the life of me figure out what this phrase is supposed to mean.

As far as I can tell, there are no Christian principles in the US Constitution, with the possible exception of the endorsement of slavery.

I understand that the people making these statements really aren't even trying to do an analysis, its just something they think sounds good. But is there even the remotest shred of evidence behind this claim?

It is an attempt to shape the future with an appeal to the authority of the past (regardless of whether that authority exists or not). Essentially it is simply an appeal to "the good old days" it was better when... It ignores the fact that we are largely where we are in an attempt to get away from where we were.

 

[JoeEllison]

I have heard this mantra, or something similar, repeated many times in recent days: "The US is founded on Christian Principles"

Now, I have read the US Constitution many times. I have taken a Constitutional law course. I have even waded through some of "The common law". And I cannot for the life of me figure out what this phrase is supposed to mean.

As far as I can tell, there are no Christian principles in the US Constitution, with the possible exception of the endorsement of slavery.

I understand that the people making these statements really aren't even trying to do an analysis, its just something they think sounds good. But is there even the remotest shred of evidence behind this claim?

They are liars or ignorant, and sometimes both. The First Amendment, the one that was important enough to go at the top of the Bill of Rights? It is a direct, absolute contradiction of the 10 Commandments. That pretty much blows the "Christian principles" thing out of the water in 30 seconds flat.

 

[balrog666]

It is an attempt to shape the future with an appeal to the authority of the past (regardless of whether that authority exists or not). Essentially it is simply an appeal to "the good old days" it was better when... It ignores the fact that we are largely where we are in an attempt to get away from where we were.

Yes, exactly.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

If by "Christian Principles" they mean such virtues as:

• Slavery
• Manifest Destiny
• Witch trials and burnings
• Patriarchal gender roles
• War and conquest
• Racial supremacy

Then I would have to agree with them.

 

[Polaris]

If by "Christian Principles" they mean such virtues as:

• Slavery
• Manifest Destiny
• Witch trials and burnings
• Patriarchal gender roles
• War and conquest
• Racial supremacy

Then I would have to agree with them.

So Nazi Germany and al-Qaida are based on Christian principles too? I'll be dipped in ◊◊◊◊.

 

[JoeEllison]

It is an attempt to shape the future with an appeal to the authority of the past (regardless of whether that authority exists or not). Essentially it is simply an appeal to "the good old days" it was better when... It ignores the fact that we are largely where we are in an attempt to get away from where we were.

That's the general political stance of the so-called "conservatives" in America these days. When we get some measure of prosperity from something progressive, they find some flaw(real or imagined), and claim that by going back to a time before the change, things will be not only better than they are, but better than they actually were back then.

 

[tsg]

The logic goes like this:

Christians believe killing people (for example) is wrong.
US law forbids killing people.
Therefore, US Law is based on Christian values.

Therefore, other things Christians believe should also be codified into law.

It is fallacious because the conclusion that killing people is wrong could have been arrived at independently of Christianity (one need not be a Christian to see why forbidding murder is a good idea).

 

[rcronk]

I have heard this mantra, or something similar, repeated many times in recent days: "The US is founded on Christian Principles"

Perhaps they're speaking of other writings of the founding fathers around the time the constitution was framed that deal with motives and points of view that are behind parts of the founding documents? I read several of those yesterday and found them to have a lot of references to God at least. I'll check again for references to Christ.

If by "Christian Principles" they mean such virtues as:

• Slavery
• Manifest Destiny
• Witch trials and burnings
• Patriarchal gender roles
• War and conquest
• Racial supremacy

Then I would have to agree with them.

Could you please cite your New Testament sources for the above "Christian Principles?" I'm not familiar with these being Christian Principles. I have, however, seen people who claim to act in the name of Christianity do the above things.

 

[skeptical]

It is fallacious because the conclusion that killing people is wrong could have been arrived at independently of Christianity (one need not be a Christian to see why forbidding murder is a good idea).

That is exactly right. I cannot think of any specifically Christian principle that is in any way even vaguely echoed in the Constitution.

But so many people, some of who seem relatively intelligent, say this I was beginning to wonder if there is something I am just missing. Any investigation is hindered by the fact that I have never seen anyone make an actual argument to support this idea, its simply just asserted as obvious when it is anything but.

 

[skeptical]

It is fallacious because the conclusion that killing people is wrong could have been arrived at independently of Christianity (one need not be a Christian to see why forbidding murder is a good idea).

That is exactly right. I cannot think of any specifically Christian principle that is in any way even vaguely echoed in the Constitution.

But so many people, some of who seem relatively intelligent, say this I was beginning to wonder if there is something I am just missing. Any investigation is hindered by the fact that I have never seen anyone make an actual argument to support this idea, its simply just asserted as obvious when it is anything but.

ETA: sorry for the dupe

 

[tsg]

Perhaps they're speaking of other writings of the founding fathers around the time the constitution was framed that deal with motives and points of view that are behind parts of the founding documents? I read several of those yesterday and found them to have a lot of references to God at least. I'll check again for references to Christ.

As someone else once said (I will have to dig to find it), you could show that Thomas Jefferson ritually crucified himself every Easter and it still wouldn't prove he thought modeling a nation on a specific religion was a good idea.

The principles the US was founded on may be "Christian" in that they are also found in the teachings of Christianity. But they are also found in other religions as well, so they aren't exclusively Christian. But even if they were, it wouldn't mean other Christian values should also be implemented in US law.

 

[joobz]

{apologist hat=on}
the philosophy of Jesus advocates an equality of everyone. This is demonstrated by the statements of treating others as you would treat god. This notion of human equality imbued into people by their creator (that certain inalienable rights thing) can be seen as a direct result of Jesus philosophy.
{apologist hat=off}

I think in this sense, it can be said to be true. But this is more saying that the nation was built upon the philosophies of Jesus and not built upon the religion of Christianity. Although not mutually exclusive, these are different beasts.

the philosophy of Jesus is quite humanist.
At the heart of Christianity is the belief of Christ’s divinity. You must believe that Christ is the son of god, died and rose from the dead to be a Christian. this isn't a Scotsman fallacy, it's simply the simplest level of the faith. You don't believe that, you aren't Christian.

Believing in the philosophy but not in the divinity doesn't make you Christian.

As such, it isn't true to say that this nation was built upon the Christian faith. there is at no point anything that relates this nation's founding to the divinity of Christ. Or that you need Christ to enter heaven or that heaven even exists. There is nothing in the founding principles that describe that you need to repent for sins, confess your sins, partake in holy sacraments, etc. This nation is not built upon the spreading of the word of god. All of these points is what make up the Christian faith. The philosophy of Jesus may be at the core of it, but it isn't what defines the religion. Indeed, often Christ’s philosophy gets lost/muddled in the religion and is therefore not really even critical to the faith.

So, when people say "this nation was built upon Christian principles" it's a horribly, almost intentionally misleading statement. A person who knows better can say it and imply that it means any part of the religious trappings they want. However, when pressed, that person can retreat and claim they just mean the philosophy. Yet, the people who don’t know better won’t make that distinction and believe that the nation was intended to be a nation of Christians. Allowing such ambiguity to go unchallenged is dangerous and should be stopped.

To end with an example: I could say that entropy always increases. If you know my context of what I’m referring to (that the entropy of a system and its surroundings), it’s a correct statement. However, without that qualifier it is easily misinterpreted as meaning that you can never go from a more disordered state to an ordered state. Even if this concept is inherently illogical, we know that this ambiguity in terminology results in such nonsense as “evolution contradicts the 2nd law.” Therefore, I always say that the sum of all entropy increases or equals or remains unchanged.

In this exact fashion, I will say that, “Yes, America was founded upon the philosophy of Jesus, but it definitely was founded not on Christian principles.”

 

[JoeEllison]

So, when people say "this nation was built upon Christian principles" it's a horribly, almost intentionally misleading statement. A person who knows better can say it and imply that it means any part of the religious trappings they want. However, when pressed, that person can retreat and claim they just mean the philosophy. Yet, the people who don’t know better won’t make that distinction and believe that the nation was intended to be a nation of Christians. Allowing such ambiguity to go unchallenged is dangerous and should be stopped.

"Almost intentionally misleading"? It is ABSOLUTELY intentionally misleading. I'm sure the blatant lying isn't part of what they mean by "Christian principles" either, but there you have it.

 

[Garrette]

So Nazi Germany and al-Qaida are based on Christian principles too? I'll be dipped in ◊◊◊◊.

Keep this attitude, and come the New Theocracy you will be...

 

[DOC]

I have heard this mantra, or something similar, repeated many times in recent days: "The US is founded on Christian Principles"

1st Charter of Virginia 1607

"We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God, and may in time bring the Infidels and Savages, living in those Parts, to human Civility, and to a settled and quiet Government; DO, by these our Letters Patents, graciously accept of, and agree to, their humble and well-intended Desires;"

http://www.bartleby.com/43/5.html

I don't agree with their (16th Century mindset) wording of savages and infidels but the above shows just how serious the founders of this country took their Christian religion.



Mayflower Compact

"Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith and Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the First Colony in the Northern Parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one of another..."

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/...democrac/2.htm



The New England Confederation 1643 (Union the New England colonies).

"Whereas we all came into these parts of America, with one and the same end and ayme, namely, to advance the Kingdome of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to enjoy the liberties of the Gospel, in purity with peace; and whereas in our settling (by a wise providence of God)

http://www.multied.com/documents/NewEngland.html

 

[skeptical]

Perhaps they're speaking of other writings of the founding fathers around the time the constitution was framed that deal with motives and points of view that are behind parts of the founding documents? I read several of those yesterday and found them to have a lot of references to God at least. I'll check again for references to Christ.

I'm sure documents written by some of the founders include references to God and perhaps even Jesus and Christianity. But even if every single founding father had left such documents, that would only show that the US was founded by Christ-ians, not founded on Christian _principles_, which is very different.

To me, for this claim to have any merit at all there has to be some specific articulable principle in the constitution (i.e. separation of powers, unitary executive, federalism, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc) that can be traced to a specific articulable Christian principle.

For example, if there were injunctions that the US citizens should love their neighbors as they love themselves, or language amounting to such, THAT would be a Christian principle traceable to language in the constitution.

Without this, the statement just seems to mean that Christians founded the US, which is more or less true (with a few notable exceptions) but meaningless as to the form of government that was actually created.

Could you please cite your New Testament sources for the above "Christian Principles?" I'm not familiar with these being Christian Principles. I have, however, seen people who claim to act in the name of Christianity do the above things.

Slavery is endorsed, slaves are told to obey their masters: Ephesians 6:5

There are no passages quoting Jesus, or anyone else, condemning the practice itself, although there are passages indicating one should be nice to your slaves.

But, this does raise a good question as to what can be considered "Christian principles". If it is in the Bible, especially the NT, can a practice be considered a principle of Christianity, or does it take more that just that? If more, then what "more" does it take?

 

[joobz]

1st Charter of Virginia 1607

"We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God, and may in time bring the Infidels and Savages, living in those Parts, to human Civility, and to a settled and quiet Government; DO, by these our Letters Patents, graciously accept of, and agree to, their humble and well-intended Desires;"

http://www.bartleby.com/43/5.html

I don't agree with their (16th Century mindset) wording of savages and infidels but the above shows just how serious the founders of this country took their Christian religion.



Mayflower Compact

"Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith and Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the First Colony in the Northern Parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one of another..."

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/...democrac/2.htm



The New England Confederation 1643 (Union the New England colonies).

"Whereas we all came into these parts of America, with one and the same end and ayme, namely, to advance the Kingdome of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to enjoy the liberties of the Gospel, in purity with peace; and whereas in our settling (by a wise providence of God)

http://www.multied.com/documents/NewEngland.html

Yawn. ALL of that occured BEFORE the founding of America. Consider those steps the mistakes that the FOUNDING FATHERS learned from and didn't repeat.

It's fish in a barrel.

 

[skeptical]

1st Charter of Virginia 1607

"We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God, and may in time bring the Infidels and Savages, living in those Parts, to human Civility, and to a settled and quiet Government; DO, by these our Letters Patents, graciously accept of, and agree to, their humble and well-intended Desires;"

http://www.bartleby.com/43/5.html

I don't agree with their (16th Century mindset) wording of savages and infidels but the above shows just how serious the founders of this country took their Christian religion.



Mayflower Compact

"Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith and Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the First Colony in the Northern Parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one of another..."

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/...democrac/2.htm



The New England Confederation 1643 (Union the New England colonies).

"Whereas we all came into these parts of America, with one and the same end and ayme, namely, to advance the Kingdome of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to enjoy the liberties of the Gospel, in purity with peace; and whereas in our settling (by a wise providence of God)

http://www.multied.com/documents/NewEngland.html

Where do those statements appear in the US Constitution? Oh, yes, that's right, it would be no where.

You do realize the the government of the United States was not formed until the US Constitution was written and ratified in 1788, correct? You do realize that what someone wrote nearly 200 years before the US Constitution has no bearing on the type of government of the United States unless those principles are specifically articulated in the Constitution, correct?

The statement that people claim is that the UNITED STATES is founded on Christian principles, not that the colony of Virginia or the confederation of New England was founded on them. If that was the claim, you would get no argument from me.

Unless you have specific statements in the US Constitution, statements about other documents for other governmental entities is irrelevant.

 

[Hokulele]

Could you please cite your New Testament sources for the above "Christian Principles?" I'm not familiar with these being Christian Principles. I have, however, seen people who claim to act in the name of Christianity do the above things.

Regarding the topic of patriarchal gender roles, I recommend reading 1 Timothy, particularly chapters 2 and 5.