Intelligent Design support letter to the editor

[bokonon]

Woo-hoo. The ten commandments no longer apply and I can covet my neighbors wife.

Right?

Sigh! If you were familiar with the NT you would never say that. In any case, let me clarify. The ceremonial law with it's sacrificial and dietary requirements, along with its observations of Sabbaths and other such things is no longer in force. The punishments for violations of moral laws are no longer in force although the moral principles are still binding upon Christians minus the punishments and sacrifical requirements. That's why Christ died, so that the law could give way to grace or forgiveness based on his sacrifice.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


If that explanation is still unclear please feel free to ask for further clarification.

Well, isn't that "observations of Sabbaths" thing one of the ten commandments? So if that one's out the window, what makes you think the others are sticky? Are you writing your own bible or something?

 

[NobbyNobbs]

That's just the thing. I think the gay bashing bible thumpers are using bible quotes to justify positions they have already taken, rather than letting the book do their thinking for them.

Which begs the question: why do they take that position? I have yet to see a rational reason, which is what leads me to believe that most reasons are either

a) the Bible sez so, or
b) I might catch teh gay.

Admittedly, many may have (b) as their reason, but I have a hard time believing that with all the information out there about homosexuality and genetics and so on, that this is a viable option.

Then again, human stupidity is the only universal constant.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

That's just the thing. I think the gay bashing bible thumpers are using bible quotes to justify positions they have already taken, rather than letting the book do their thinking for them.

Which begs the question: why do they take that position? I have yet to see a rational reason, which is what leads me to believe that most reasons are either

a) the Bible sez so, or
b) I might catch teh gay.

Admittedly, many may have (b) as their reason, but I have a hard time believing that with all the information out there about homosexuality and genetics and so on, that this is a viable option.

Then again, human stupidity is the only universal constant.

 

[RobRoy]

Admittedly, many may have (b) as their reason, but I have a hard time believing that with all the information out there about homosexuality and genetics and so on, that this is a viable option.

Then again, human stupidity is the only universal constant.

And they fear what is different, odd, or strange. Treatment of the mentally ill is easily proof of that.

 

[Radrook]

It's one thing to use Bible quotes to support a position you already have taken. It's an entirely different matter when you take a position simply because the Bible has a quote about it. This is the problem I have with many people who are against gay rights. When it comes down to it, most of their reasons are along the lines of "Well, the Bible says it's wrong." They let that book do their thinking for them.

Of course! The logical inevitable consequence of belief in the Bible as God's Word. Nothing unusual there. So any surprise or amazement concerning this is illogical and unwarranted. It would be warranted if behavior is out of kilter with the given belief system. A Muslim eating pork-for example-or Buddhists rejecting Nirvana or pacifists engaging in warfare. But since in this case it isn't, your astonishment comes across as illogical.


BTW

I don't recall bringing up gayness or the so-called gay rights. So I am presently in a quandary as to why this is suddenly thrust into the thread. But since it has, let me say that I personally have never tried to deprive any person, regardless of sexual preferences, of his human rights nor do I approve of anyone who does.

However, if asked what the Bible says on any given subject, including homosexuality, then I will be obligated to quote scripture. If asked whether I believe the scripture is right, I will answer yes. If the person then disagrees, I will acknowledge his right to his opinion. If I am then told that the Bible isn't saying what it just plainly said, I would probably ask why he
reads a book that annoys him instead of reading one that doesn't or better yet-try writing his own.

 

[Radrook]

Which begs the question: why do they take that position? I have yet to see a rational reason,

Anyone can tag anything that makes them uncomfortable as irrational.

which is what leads me to believe that most reasons are either
a) the Bible sez so, or

Really, and what of the others who don't say that the Bible says so? Not everyone who chooses not to follow the gay lifestyle or who chooses heterosexuality-or feels more attracted to and exclusively heterosexuality lifestyle, or who might view strict heterosexuality as the normal are Christians. There are Muslims for example, who also take the same stance and quote from the Koran.

Homosexuality and Islam
http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyK...http://www.geocities.com/mikailtariq/homo.htm

There are also the Asiatic Indians with their diverse religions

So actually, what is needed at this point is statistical evidence to support either your view or mine. But I think that the exception to the proposed- Bible based only-generalization has proven the point.

b) I might catch teh gay. Admittedly, many may have (b) as their reason,

True, some do feel that way. But again the provision of statistics is necessary in order to elevate your idea from it's present shadowy opinion status. For example, how many hold this opinion and how is this attitude distributed statistical among the various religions. That information would prove that you are either completely mistaken in saying that it is the predominant reason, or confirm your accusation that this is a predominant reason. As it stands, however, it remains to be proven one way or the other and makes your stupidity
belief seem trite.

....but I have a hard time believing that with all the information out there about homosexuality and genetics and so on, that this is a viable option. Then again, human stupidity is the only universal constant.

Stupidity given the premise but your premise is founded on the misunderstanding of what was said. You are confusing the catching with the literal catching of a disease. That is not the concept that was being hinted at. The concept hinted at is that close association with certain types of people will lead to an eventual imitation of their habits-be they bad or good. In view that the whole concept which you tag as stupid is really irrelevant due to this misunderstanding.

 

[Ocelot]

However, if asked what the Bible says on any given subject, including homosexuality, then I will be obligated to quote scripture. If asked whether I believe the scripture is right, I will answer yes.

As far as I'm aware, and I might be wrong on this. The prohibitions on homosexuality are one of those Old Testament things that is not included in the new covenant, like not eating shellfish or wearing clothes made of two fabrics.

Is that a viable interpretation of the Bible in your eyes?

 

[six7s]

The prohibitions on homosexuality are one of those Old Testament things that is not included in the new covenant, like not eating shellfish or wearing clothes made of two fabrics

But two guys slamming oyster shooters in woollen sweaters by Versace and lycra shorts by Gaultier will burn, nevertheless

 

[RobRoy]

As far as I'm aware, and I might be wrong on this. The prohibitions on homosexuality are one of those Old Testament things that is not included in the new covenant, like not eating shellfish or wearing clothes made of two fabrics.

Sorry, unfortunately, there are New Testament proscriptions against homosexuality:

Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinithians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:9-10.

 

[six7s]

Sorry, unfortunately, there are New Testament proscriptions against homosexuality:

Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinithians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:9-10.

There is, of course, a wide range of interpretations

ReligiousTolerance.org » Homosexuality in the Christian Scriptures » Romans 1:26-27

This passage is unique in that it is the only place in the Bible that refers to same-gender sexual behavior by women.

Bennett Sims, the former Episcopal bishop of Atlanta, believes that these verses have done more to form Christians' negative opinion of homosexuality than any other single passage in the Bible. He writes: "For most of us who seriously honor Scripture these verses still stand as the capital New Testament text that unequivocally prohibits homosexual behavior. More prohibitively, this text has been taken to mean that even a same-sex inclination is reprehensible, so that a type of humanity known as 'homosexual' has steadily become the object of contempt and discrimination."

Topics included in this section:

• Introduction: Overview, important words, Context
• Interpretation by religious conservatives
• Interpretation by religious liberals and others
• Additional interpretations

Although the above addresses some rather interesting points, it does (understandably) overlook the (blindingly) obvious:

The Bible may be an arresting and poetic work of fiction but it is not the sort of book you should give your children to form their morals.

Source

biblicalnonsense.com

The Bible demonstrates overwhelming evidence of authorship by fallible, divinely uninspired humans.

 

[edge]

It's also like seeing a congressman constantly quoting ancient Greek scholars or Aesop's Fables while debating a bill in the House that is meant for modern times. i.e. perhaps the general sentiment is valid but is often naive and doesn't take into account current relevant situations and events or benefit from modern research. You just drop some random quote from 2 or more millennia ago and smugly move on as if saying "I believe my point has been made".

Ah but when evidence that occurs today is presented you quickly dismiss it as some thing scientifically explainable, when the context of what is being presented says exactly the opposite. In some cases science is right but not in all cases.
As in the case of O.B.E. or N.D.E.s .
All in the mind, but the people that experience these will tell you differently.
In my mind God is showing us more and is doing so today, not in antiquity.
Miracles happen today, prayers ARE ANSEWERED EVERY DAY BUT ONLY TO THE DEVOTED.

I wrote Tom an E-mail and he says he’s coming in here to spank you hard Articulate, something about slander?

 

[RobRoy]

There is, of course, a wide range of interpretations.

Wait a minute. You're saying the Bible can have more than one interpretation!?

 

[Giggywig]

Miracles happen today, prayers ARE ANSEWERED EVERY DAY BUT ONLY TO THE DEVOTED.

So if your prayer is not answered, it's because you're not devoted enough?

 

[edge]

To understand what is said and not sugar coat it here it is in its entirety.
Romans 1:26-27 and more.

God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Wait a minute. You're saying the Bible can have more than one interpretation!?

The right, and the wrong interpretations.

This is the way it’s interpreted on the link that was presented above.

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet."

The meaning is lost with those last few words and then what do you learn?


Originally Posted by Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
The Bible may be an arresting and poetic work of fiction but it is not the sort of book you should give your children to form their morals.

Source
If you don’t agree with God then this is true for you.

Then he six7s,adds,

The Bible demonstrates overwhelming evidence of authorship by fallible, divinely uninspired humans.

Total lie.

So if your prayer is not answered, it's because you're not devoted enough?

There might be many reasons Not everything that is asked for is given even for the totally devoted Christian.
So how many would be answered for an atheist?

That part of Romans encompasses more than just Homosexuals.

To put my joystick in the ****** end of a gut is just plane stupid, my common sense told me that.

due penalty for their perversion

Don't want none of that, because it's true.

Two women together doesn’t turn me on either, it actually makes me sad, but I have been a friends with these types of people and their orientations is their business.

They have to answer not me.
All I could do is try to talk to them and not judge them.
Let them know how God feels about it.
I also understand that it might go deeper in their psychology that can’t be fixed here, except by God and tell them this also.
Whatever it is it is their will, freedom of choice.

 

[D'rok]

To understand what is said and not sugar coat it here it is in its entirety.
Romans 1:26-27 and more.

God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Yaweh sure is a pleasant chap.

--snipped homophobic nonsense--

Whatever it is it is their will, freedom of choice.

Perhaps you can tell us at what point you, using your free will, freely chose your sexuality. Or did you just always like womenfolk? Obviously, if you are honest, the latter is true. Why do you suppose it is different for gay folks?

ETA: Unless you are one of those self-hating closeted types trying to pray the gay away. In which case, my heart goes out to you in all sincerity.

 

[six7s]

That part of Romans encompasses more than just Homosexuals.

To put my joystick in the ****** end of a gut is just plane stupid, my common sense told me that.

Maybe your common sense might help you read the next chapter of Romans, where Paul warns his readers of the folly in condemning others... it might just make you stop and think long enough to understand that "plane stupid" is what happens when blinkered fanatics believe that it is their divine duty to make repeated attacks on innocent people going about their private business

​

 

[bokonon]

There might be many reasons Not everything that is asked for is given even for the totally devoted Christian.
So how many would be answered for an atheist?

As an atheist, I've found that I get everything I pray for.

Has that not been your experience?

 

[articulett]

Maybe your common sense might help you read the next chapter of Romans, where Paul warns his readers of the folly in condemning others... it might just make you stop and think long enough to understand that "plane stupid" is what happens when blinkered fanatics believe that it is their divine duty to make repeated attacks on innocent people going about their private business

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1760247ab86af71113.jpg​

Great response.

Now if only "common sense" would keep the pedophilia in the clergy from being attracted to little kids--after all, they have "god" on their side (plus, as a bonus-- the threat of hell!)

 

[articulett]

As an atheist, I've found that I get everything I pray for.

Has that not been your experience?

Me too. 100% of the time. It's awesome.

 

[Jeff Corey]

Maybe your common sense might help you read the next chapter of Romans, where Paul warns his readers of the folly in condemning others... it might just make you stop and think long enough to understand that "plane stupid" is what happens when blinkered fanatics believe that it is their divine duty to make repeated attacks on innocent people going about their private business

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1760247ab86af71113.jpg[/qimg]​

"Plane stupid". Elegant. Nominated.