Split thread: Does the Bible speak out against slavery?

[Mobyseven]

So as long as they are all happy slaves, then it's okay with God.

Zip-a-dee-doo-dah.

That's what I was thinking. If you're going to say that the bible forbids slavery, it would be best not to cite a series of passages that talk about how one should treat their slaves...

 

[bruto]

Exodus 21:16 "He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death."

Meaningful only if you equate kidnapping with enslavement. Why would you do that in a society where slavery was common and accepted?

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond (slave) nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The above passage says freeman and slaves are "equal" in Christ eyes.

So we're equal in God's eyes. This says nothing about slavery in the real world, nor does it in any way oppose the idea that slaves remain slaves.

1Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond (slaves) or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Once again slaves are considered equal to freeman before God's eyes.

And once again, not on earth, where the social order is preserved.

1 Corinthians 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, [being] a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, [being] free, is Christ's servant.


Slaves are freeman in God's eyes.

But not one iota of objection to the way the world works, where slaves are still slaves.

Also this site does a good job covering the subject of slavery during Biblical times:

"First, we must recognize that the Bible does not say God supports slavery. In fact, the slavery described in the Old Testament was quite different from the kind of slavery we think of today - in which people are captured and sold as slaves. According to Old Testament law, anyone caught selling another person into slavery was to be executed:

"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)

So, obviously, slavery during Old Testament times was not what we commonly recognize as slavery, such as that practiced in the 17th century Americas, when Africans were captured and forcibly brought to work on plantations. Unlike our modern government welfare programs, there was no safety-net for ancient Middle Easterners who could not provide a living for themselves. In ancient Israel, people who could not provide for themselves or their families sold them into slavery so they would not die of starvation or exposure. In this way, a person would receive food and housing in exchange for labor.

From the site: Does God approve Slavery According to the Bible?

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/slavery_bible.html

Mind you, I think attempting to use the Bible to support slavery or to justify it is wrong, but it's just as wrong to pretend that the Bible opposes it in practice. The promise that you'll be free in heaven is, if anything, an affirmation of it, and an acknowledgement that it is out of the church's temporal jurisdiction.

 

[CapelDodger]

Like Docky, whatever sells the product.

The old IBM ideology where the salesman is at the peak of the status pyramid. And why not, in this context?

Christianity didn't take off in the Semitic world, it took off in the Graeco-Roman world. (In the Semitic world Islam just stepped on an empty egg-shell.) That's where there was a market for this kind of stuff. It didn't question the social order, which was stable, but it did address some other need. The intriguing questions are what was the need?, and why?

Christianity tells us nothing about the real world, but it's an indirect witness to the society it took root in. And there was plenty of competition.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

So, although there are rules about slavery in the Bible, those rules exist to protect the slave. Injuring or killing slaves was punishable - up to death of the offending party.1 Hebrews were commanded not to make their slave work on the Sabbath,2 slander a slave,3 have sex with another man's slave,4 or return an escaped slave.5 A Hebrew was not to enslave his fellow countryman, even if he owed him money, but was to have him work as a hired worker, and he was to be released in the year of jubilee (which occurred every seven years).6 In fact, the slave owner was encouraged to "pamper his slave".7
What the New Testament says about slavery

Since many of the early Christians were slaves to Romans,8 they were encouraged to become free if possible, but not worry about it if not possible.9

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/slavery_bible.html

Hey DOC, according to Exodus 21:20-21, it's okay with God if you slowly beat your slaves to death. They just have to survive the beating for at least two days. After all, they are your money.

 

[six7s]

Nominated for the sheer shooting fish in a barrel (near-pith)

Thanguverrymuch jimbob

Although - as the Blue Genghis noted - it was (largely) copied, I would sincerely like to see an 'authoritative' response

Meh, they just aren't worth that much on the open market

Aussies are durable, easy to maintain and, as you say, cheap... a perfect time to buy!

You are much better off owning Swedes.

We're looking for muscle...

Even older joke:
​

Last week, a man driving around the back-blocks parked up by a shearing shed, strode up to the farmer and said "For you, I have an offer. I will be calculating the how many of sheep you are having and, if I am correct, I will be getting a sheep with me for to take. If I am being wrong, you will be getting my Volvo"

The farmer, thinking he's on to a winner, agrees

The driver pulls out a laptop, connects a USB modem, surfs to nordnav.com, logs into a GPS satellite navigation system to get an exact fix on the location, feeds that data into a three geo-stationary satellites that scan the farm and produce a 720dpi tif, which is downloaded to a server in Stockholm that emails him the output from a MY-SQL/PHP driven dB query that downloads to an OOo-Calc file that processes 42 formulae into a text file that is loaded into his Blackberry, from which he prints a full-color, 98-page report, which he presents to the bewildered farmer, who takes around ten minutes to decipher that there are 2,185 sheep, of which 87.42% are in-lamb

"Bugger me" says the astounded farmer, "you're right! Fair dues... take your pick from the flock"

The driver deliberates for a minute or so, makes his selection and returns to his Volvo

But, just before he starts the engine, the farmer calls out "Hang on a minute, mate! I've got a deal for you. If I can guess what you do for a living, I get your car. If I'm wrong, you get my entire flock, and the wool on their backs"

"OK" says the driver

"You're a consultant" says the farmer, immediately

"How did you guess?"

"I didn't need to guess; despite knowing nothing about me or my industry, you came here wanting to be paid for telling me something I already knew, in a format that I didn't understand"

"Now give me back my dog."

...not consultants

 

[joobz]

Hey DOC, according to Exodus 21:20-21, it's okay with God if you slowly beat your slaves to death. They just have to survive the beating for at least two days. After all, they are your money.

Well, it fits with the god's old testament attitude as a abusive husband.
"why do you make me hurt you?"

 

[jimbob]

O

riginally Posted by six7s
Why can't I own Australians?

Meh, they just aren't worth that much on the open market. You are much better off owning Swedes.

Aussies are durable, easy to maintain and, as you say, cheap... a perfect time to buy!

I suppose both would cost in alcohol.

On the marketing sidethread:

IRRC there is a legend* that the leader of the Rus decided that he wanted to follow a "modern" religion instead of polytheism and invited representatives of Catholics, Greek orthodoox, and Islam to Moscow.

Abstention from alcohol did for Islam. Celibate priests did for Catholicism, leaving Orthodox Christianity as the only runner.


*i.e. probably not true...

 

[Darat]

...snip... A friend of mine claims that this applies to Samoans, but not Australians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Australians?


...snip...

Too difficult to house train.

 

[jimbob]

Darat,

does "difficult" mean that it is theoretically possible?

(Disclosure: I have dual Kiwi/British nationality, so am particularly bitter, especially during cricket test matches when I can feel some vague hope about once every 20 years...).

 

[Mobyseven]

Too difficult to house train.

Well if that's how you're going to be we'll just take our exports and go home.

What're you going to do without an influx of drunk blonde sheilas come uni break, eh?

 

[Darat]

Darat,

does "difficult" mean that it is theoretically possible?

(Disclosure: I have dual Kiwi/British nationality, so am particularly bitter, especially during cricket test matches when I can feel some vague hope about once every 20 years...).

Back in the 50s (and until the 80s) we ran some large scale research projects into this matter and the results were not very successful. (As anyone these days visiting the area we ran the experiments in i.e. Earls Court can see for themselves.) So whilst it theoretically may be possible and there may be one or two that could be house trained the usual recommendation is that they do not make good slaves.

 

[Darat]

Well if that's how you're going to be we'll just take our exports and go home.

What're you going to do without an influx of drunk blonde sheilas come uni break, eh?

Ah yes - Australian beauties....

 

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Mobyseven
Well if that's how you're going to be we'll just take our exports and go home.

Ah yes - Australian beauties....

It explains their wish for beer-glasses.

Mobyseven, isn't Sir Les Patterson the ideal cultural attaché?

 

[Nogbad]

It explains their wish for beer-glasses.

Mobyseven, isn't Sir Les Patterson the ideal cultural attaché?

Ladies and Gentlemen

I'm not going to insult your intelligence by pretending I haven't had a drink...because I have had a few...

but I'm not full and I'm not going to bore you either

 

[Mobyseven]

Ah yes - Australian beauties....

Clearly you hung around in the wrong circles when you came to Australia. This is a more accurate representative of Australian females.

 

[Tricky]

Clearly you hung around in the wrong circles when you came to Australia. This is a more accurate representative of Australian females.

I can't think of Sheilas without remembering the famous Australian Women's Soccer Calendar of 1999.

[nsfw] http://www.womensoccer.com/refs/austrcalendar.html [/nsfw]

 

[zooterkin]

What're you going to do without an influx of drunk blonde sheilas come uni break, eh?

Is it too late to claim my quota, as I seem to have missed it at the time?

 

[joobz]

Clearly you hung around in the wrong circles when you came to Australia. This is a more accurate representative of Australian females.

There's definitely something freudian going on, becuase when I first read the title over her image "Beauty pageant titleholder", I read "Beauty pregnant T****holder".

I'm very sorry.

 

[CapelDodger]

On the marketing sidethread:

IRRC there is a legend* that the leader of the Rus decided that he wanted to follow a "modern" religion instead of polytheism and invited representatives of Catholics, Greek orthodoox, and Islam to Moscow.

Abstention from alcohol did for Islam. Celibate priests did for Catholicism, leaving Orthodox Christianity as the only runner.


*i.e. probably not true...

That's a new take on an old story, and one I hadn't heard before.

The old story refers to the Khan of the Khazars, who ran the whole Lower Don/Crimea/Ukraine region - a substantial power, sitting above the powers of Byzantium and Islam. The three delegations invited (so the story goes, and it's highly controversial) were Christian, Muslim, and Jewish. The Khan chose Judaism and his people (he was a very popular Khan, so the story goes) converted forthwith.

On the one hand, they kept sex and booze and gave up pork - which has never been big with nomadic types anyway. And on the same hand they didn't piss-off either the Byzantine or Islamic powers by siding with the other.

An astute move, to my mind. They got f***ed over by the Slavs in the end, but not for a good while.

 

[CapelDodger]

(Disclosure: I have dual Kiwi/British nationality, so am particularly bitter, especially during cricket test matches when I can feel some vague hope about once every 20 years...).

Dig up a great-grandparent called "Jones" or somesuch and you can claim dual Kiwi/Welsh nationality, to share in a once-in-twenty-years triumph. Wales beat England at Twickenham. I woke up thinking it was a dream, but the newspapers confirmed it.

Our new (Kiwi) coach can bask in a whole week of Messiahdom before the Scots crap all over us. What the hey. In the words of the song, "As long as we beat the English, we don't care".

And we did. One day we'll beat the god-like All Blacks. Aussies? Meh. Been there, done that.