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The case against Dr. Paul

You presented the link. I followed the link. I read the material. Your link didn't point to any "Section 3". I accepted your link at face value. Did you give me a bogus link?

Can you provide the correct link? I'm happy to read other material. Or perhaps quote it?
:confused:

You even posted the same link!

If you had read it, you'd see:
Section 3 The first sentence of the ninth paragraph of section 16 of the Federal Reserve Act (12 U.S.C. 418) is amended by inserting "$1, $2," immediately after "notes of the denominations of".

Previously, Federal Reserve Notes could only be issued in denominations of $5 or greater. Silver certificates were only issued in $1 bills, denominations higher than that were all Federal Reserve Notes.

If you don't understand this by now maybe you could channel Ra and that entity will explain it to you in a way mortal humans cannot.
 

I dispute this source. It's a guy's opinion on geocities. We've examined here the relevant legal documents. I provided my own interpretation. You're not refuting my interpretation. You're providing some other guy's opinion.

The original documents still stand.

Tokorona I don't mind if you fade away, I don't care if you don't do a #1 or #2 -- I won't think any worse of you. I'm discussing this with Wildcat at the moment. I'd like to think he can defend his position himself. I expect Wildcat to do a #1 or #2. Fading away/not answering I consider an implicit #1 (#1 = Admit I'm right, #2 = Demonstrate my error. #3 = fade away without doing either I guess, or change the subject, or resort to insults). If wildcat opts for #3 he discredits himself completely as far as I'm concerned. I hope he'll work out #2 because then I'll have learned something. #1 is good for his learning, in many ways.

-Dave
 
5) People that believe (or slyly find it plausable) that Ra from the sixth density dimension whatzit told some random loser in Iowa the true nature of physics, and the lack of flying cars prove that since modern standard physics is stagnant that some other crazed person referenced by Ra is right about the true nature of the universe. I wish I was making this up.


This thread delivers... even if I'm never gonna find out what "constitutional government" is...
 
I dispute this source. It's a guy's opinion on geocities. We've examined here the relevant legal documents. I provided my own interpretation. You're not refuting my interpretation. You're providing some other guy's opinion.

The original documents still stand.

Tokorona I don't mind if you fade away, I don't care if you don't do a #1 or #2 -- I won't think any worse of you. I'm discussing this with Wildcat at the moment. I'd like to think he can defend his position himself. I expect Wildcat to do a #1 or #2. Fading away/not answering I consider an implicit #1 (#1 = Admit I'm right, #2 = Demonstrate my error. #3 = fade away without doing either I guess, or change the subject, or resort to insults). If wildcat opts for #3 he discredits himself completely as far as I'm concerned. I hope he'll work out #2 because then I'll have learned something. #1 is good for his learning, in many ways.

-Dave


Ah, a nice fallacy. Here's a small hint. Look at his sources:
2. Woodward, G. Thomas (1996), "Money and the Federal Reserve System: Myth and Reality," Congressional Research Service.
 
Secondar Source:
However, the Silver Certificates began to disappear from circulation during the 1940s and 1950s. The amount of Silver Certificates in circulation depended directly upon the amount of silver bullion in the Treasury vaults. As people redeemed the certificates for bullion or silver dollars, the notes were shredded, because the notes had lost their backing and could not be recirculated unless there were more silver being produced. The price of silver was also rising. In 1960, it was nearing $1.29, which meant that silver dollars were worth more than $1. This meant that people would receive their silver dollars, and melt them down for the bullion, thereby reducing the amount of silver in circulation, which was already falling. In March 1964, Secretary of the Treasury C. Douglas Dillon halted redemption of Silver Certificates for Silver Dollars. In the 1970s, large numbers of the remaining silver dollars in the mint vaults were sold to the collecting public for collector value. Silver Certificates were abolished by Congress on June 4, 1963 and all redemption in silver ceased on June 24, 1968. Paper currency is still valid legal tender without the Silver Certificate, instead being backed simply by the strength of the U.S. economy. According to the U.S. treasury, "The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are "backed" by all the goods and services in the economy." [1]
Silver CertificateWP
 
I dispute this source. It's a guy's opinion on geocities. We've examined here the relevant legal documents. I provided my own interpretation. You're not refuting my interpretation. You're providing some other guy's opinion.

1) Argument from webhosting services
2) Implied claim of appeal from authority fallcy, which misses seeing this guy has a PhD.
3) Yet another reverse argument from popularity...
The original documents still stand.
Argument from willful ignorance...
Tokorona I don't mind if you fade away, I don't care if you don't do a #1 or #2 -- I won't think any worse of you. I'm discussing this with Wildcat at the moment. I'd like to think he can defend his position himself. I expect Wildcat to do a #1 or #2. Fading away/not answering I consider an implicit #1 (#1 = Admit I'm right, #2 = Demonstrate my error. #3 = fade away without doing either I guess, or change the subject, or resort to insults). If wildcat opts for #3 he discredits himself completely as far as I'm concerned. I hope he'll work out #2 because then I'll have learned something. #1 is good for his learning, in many ways.

-Dave

Argument from... err.. I wasn't talking to you combined with a strange sort of false trichotomy and reverse ad hominem argument were substance is ignored and/or seen as insult.
 
1) Argument from webhosting services
2) Implied claim of appeal from authority fallcy, which misses seeing this guy has a PhD.
3) Yet another reverse argument from popularity...
Argument from willful ignorance...

Argument from... err.. I wasn't talking to you combined with a strange sort of false trichotomy and reverse ad hominem argument were substance is ignored and/or seen as insult

Wait, he has a Ph. D? Didn't know that.
 
Previously, Federal Reserve Notes could only be issued in denominations of $5 or greater. Silver certificates were only issued in $1 bills, denominations higher than that were all Federal Reserve Notes.

If you don't understand this by now maybe you could channel Ra and that entity will explain it to you in a way mortal humans cannot.

Wildcat I am not going to tolerate your belittling statements like, "If you don't understand this by now maybe you could channel Ra and that entity will explain it to you in a way mortal humans cannot." If you engage in this one more time I will add you to my ignore list and completely drop this discussion. Do you understand? If you try to play that game one more time that's it. I don't interact with toxic people. I don't need it in my life. Why should I?

Ok, so your Public Law 88-36, section 3, grants the Federal Reserve the permission to issue $1 and $2 Federal Reserve Notes, if I'm understanding your statement. I do confess when I read that the second time I didn't see the "Section 3" text right in upper middle area there, my eyes missed it. I apologize for this mistake. **** DO YOU SEE THIS? THIS IS WHAT AN APOLOGY LOOKS LIKE. THIS IS WHAT AN ADMISSION OF MAKING A MISTAKE LOOKS LIKE. SEE? IT DOESN'T HURT AT ALL. LIFE GOES ON. ***

What is the relevance of this? Does this demonstrate that the US Notes Kennedy authorized the Treasury to issue (backed by silver) are being phased out?

Help me to connect the dots. I'm asking for insight from you.

I understand that by warning you about insults above, this gives you an out. Meaning you can escape #1 (admit you are wrong) or #2 (demonstrate my mistake) by simply insulting me as being a loon or whatever. Then I'll exit in a huff, add you to my ignore list, and you can claim "Victory!" I hope you understand it doesn't matter either way. If that's how you operate, I'm content never to read anything you write ever again.

I think this is going to be hard for you, but I sort of have faith you can engage in an adult discussion without inserting gratuitous insults.

-Dave
 
Wildcat I am not going to tolerate your belittling statements like, "If you don't understand this by now maybe you could channel Ra and that entity will explain it to you in a way mortal humans cannot." If you engage in this one more time I will add you to my ignore list and completely drop this discussion. Do you understand? If you try to play that game one more time that's it. I don't interact with toxic people. I don't need it in my life. Why should I?
Toxic = do not agree with me
Ok, so your Public Law 88-36, section 3, grants the Federal Reserve the permission to issue $1 and $2 Federal Reserve Notes, if I'm understanding your statement. I do confess when I read that the second time I didn't see the "Section 3" text right in upper middle area there, my eyes missed it. I apologize for this mistake. **** DO YOU SEE THIS? THIS IS WHAT AN APOLOGY LOOKS LIKE. THIS IS WHAT AN ADMISSION OF MAKING A MISTAKE LOOKS LIKE. SEE? IT DOESN'T HURT AT ALL. LIFE GOES ON. ***
DO YOU SEE THIS? THIS IS WHAT PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE LOOKS LIKE!!!
What is the relevance of this? Does this demonstrate that the US Notes Kennedy authorized the Treasury to issue (backed by silver) are being phased out?
Umm.,.. er.... Yes?
Help me to connect the dots. I'm asking for insight from you.
Insight = agreeing with me.
 
Secondar Source:
...
Silver Certificates were abolished by Congress on June 4, 1963 and all redemption in silver ceased on June 24, 1968.

This is a very good quote. According to wikipedia JFK was assassinated November 22, 1963. So if Silver Certificates were abolished June 24, 1968, that pretty much debunks the conspiracy theory. Hmmmmm.

I question the June 24, 1968 date assertion. Has this date come out within this discussion already? Is there a source for this piece of information?

Note I don't care enough about this particular question (Silver certificates/assassination connection) to want to invest the time to find out. Recall I never claimed there was a connection. I just said it was an interesting argument. It is still an interesting argument. I believe I had tended towards believing there was something there. Now I've moved over into completely neutral on the matter. So something has been accomplished.

So here's the deal: I don't have the energy to track down the evidence for June 24, 1968 being the date the Silver Certificates were discontinued. If you wish to track it down I will read your posts. However I'm willing to concede the point if you don't want to invest any more time in it either.

That means you've pulled off a #2 of sorts. Congratulations!

Now that I think about it I think my original point in bringing up the Silver backed US Notes was that Kennedy wished to create an alternative currency to the Federal Reserve Notes. The point was about introduction of currencies has occured in history.

I don't think this assertion has been disproven.

Let's let the Silver Notes/conspiracy sub thread expire. I'm willing to let this whole issue expire, I'm running out of time I can invest in this.

-Dave
 
This is a very good quote. According to wikipedia JFK was assassinated November 22, 1963. So if Silver Certificates were abolished June 24, 1968, that pretty much debunks the conspiracy theory. Hmmmmm.

I question the June 24, 1968 date assertion. Has this date come out within this discussion already? Is there a source for this piece of information?

Note I don't care enough about this particular question (Silver certificates/assassination connection) to want to invest the time to find out. Recall I never claimed there was a connection. I just said it was an interesting argument. It is still an interesting argument. I believe I had tended towards believing there was something there. Now I've moved over into completely neutral on the matter. So something has been accomplished.

So here's the deal: I don't have the energy to track down the evidence for June 24, 1968 being the date the Silver Certificates were discontinued. If you wish to track it down I will read your posts. However I'm willing to concede the point if you don't want to invest any more time in it either.

That means you've pulled off a #2 of sorts. Congratulations!

Now that I think about it I think my original point in bringing up the Silver backed US Notes was that Kennedy wished to create an alternative currency to the Federal Reserve Notes. The point was about introduction of currencies has occured in history.

I don't think this assertion has been disproven.

Let's let the Silver Notes/conspiracy sub thread expire. I'm willing to let this whole issue expire, I'm running out of time I can invest in this.

-Dave

Because of the rising price of silver (and in order to free up the government's silver reserves for other uses), production of Silver Certificates was halted in 1963, and a deadline of June 24, 1968 was imposed for their redemption.

Source: http://www.uspapermoney.info/general/types.html

I'll make an effort to find out what law that is (bear in mind that Kennedy signed it, and it was obviously to push forward the normal Fed backed currency)
 
It's amazing how willfully ignorant the Ronulans are, even when confronted with the actual facts of the matter.

In the bizarro world of Ron Paul, Kennedy signing a law allowing the issuance Federal Reserve Notes in denominations that previously had to be issued in solely in Silver Certificates becomes "President Kennedy declared that the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank would soon be out of business."

At any rate, my previous claim that almost all Ron Paul supporters fall into at least one of these 4 categories...

1. 9/11 Truthers.
2. Anti-Fed/gold standard loons.
3. People who are convinced there is a secret push for a NAU, and that NAFTA is the first step.
4. White supremacists who think Ron Paul's denials vis-a-vis the newsletters and donations come with a wink and a nod.

is still accurate.


I would have to add 2 more:
5. Idealistic but sadly ignorant people who have latched on to Ron Paul as the Anti Establishment Protest candidate for 2008 They have bought into this whole "Simple,Plain,Honest,Common Sense Ron" image and are in for a sad awakening. This makes up a lot of the Ronulans I have encountered. They are probably more to be pitied then censured.
6. The Internet Nerds who jump onto whatever the latest "Kewl" Internet Trend is,and think that supporting Paul makes them look edgy and cool.

Too bad dash is not posting over the COnspiracy Theory section.He has Stundie award written all over him.
 
It's amazing how willfully ignorant the Ronulans are, even when confronted with the actual facts of the matter.

In the bizarro world of Ron Paul, Kennedy signing a law allowing the issuance Federal Reserve Notes in denominations that previously had to be issued in solely in Silver Certificates becomes "President Kennedy declared that the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank would soon be out of business."

At any rate, my previous claim that almost all Ron Paul supporters fall into at least one of these 4 categories...

1. 9/11 Truthers.
2. Anti-Fed/gold standard loons.
3. People who are convinced there is a secret push for a NAU, and that NAFTA is the first step.
4. White supremacists who think Ron Paul's denials vis-a-vis the newsletters and donations come with a wink and a nod.

is still accurate.


I would have to add 2 more:
5. Idealistic but sadly ignorant people who have latched on to Ron Paul as the Anti Establishment Protest candidate for 2008 They have bought into this whole "Simple,Plain,Honest,Common Sense Ron" image and are in for a sad awakening. This makes up a lot of the Ronulans I have encountered. They are probably more to be pitied then censured.
6. The Internet Nerds who jump onto whatever the latest "Kewl" Internet Trend is,and think that supporting Paul makes them look edgy and cool.

Too bad dash is not posting over the COnspiracy Theory section.He has Stundie award written all over him.
 
Very Good Article On Silver By Antol Fekete

It is a farce to blame the present financial crisis on lax lending standards and rogue traders. What we see is the return of the chickens to roost. This crisis has been in the making for over a century, involving the so-called demonetization of both monetary metals. The move was inspired and led by the United States. In particular, the so-called demonetization of gold was designed to camouflage the default of the U.S. Treasury on its gold-obligations. The industrial nations of the West did not even say ‘ouch’ when America’s default caused them losses measured in hundreds of billions on their holdings of dollars in 1971. They became accomplices eager to start milking their own savers and producers by joining the paper-money farce. The day of reckoning dawns.

America’s plight is self-inflicted. Yet America could still turn the train of monetary events to its advantage, reclaiming monetary leadership, if it opened the U.S. Mint to gold and silver. It should do it before China or Russia opened theirs. Unfortunately, there does not seem to exist one grain of wisdom in Washington to see this, let alone to do this. It would take the election victory of the maverick candidate, Dr. Ron Paul, Minority of One in the House of Representatives, to pull it off. It is certainly a proof of the American genius that great crises produce great men who are capable of dealing with them. If the Chinese beat America to the finish line by opening their Mint to silver, then the silky metal would be the international currency of the future.

Next to the Chinese the Russians are the most inscrutable players, ganging up against America’s monetary hegemony. Their turf is gold. Perhaps it will be the Russians who will beat America to the finish line by opening the Russian Mint to gold, even before the Chinese open theirs to silver. Either way, America would be left in the lurch, denuded of its industrial capital, its savings, but left with a pile of worthless paper, and paper-worshippers in charge of the Treasury, and in charge of teaching monetary economics at all levels.

America can then embark on the arduous path to accumulate capital from scratch, while Russian and Chinese capitalists will be producing goods in spanking new plants, aided by spanking new equipment, complemented by shiny gold and silver pieces to trade their products world wide.

It is past wake-up call. To save itself, America had better listen to the message of Ron Paul who, in a counter double whammy, would open the U.S. Mint to both gold and silver if elected President.

http://www.kitco.com/ind/fekete/jan302008.html

I'm sorry if this all sounds like "woo".

To all Ron Paul supporters: Even if Ron Paul doesn't win, you can win financially by buying physical silver. American Silver Eagles, 1 ounce of .999 pure silver, are a good thing to invest in. Available...everywhere. Google is your friend.

-Dave
 
http://www.kitco.com/ind/fekete/jan302008.html

I'm sorry if this all sounds like "woo".

To all Ron Paul supporters: Even if Ron Paul doesn't win, you can win financially by buying physical silver. American Silver Eagles, 1 ounce of .999 pure silver, are a good thing to invest in. Available...everywhere. Google is your friend.

-Dave

Or these coins, available...not too many places now.
 

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http://www.kitco.com/ind/fekete/jan302008.html

I'm sorry if this all sounds like "woo".
Yes, it is woo and that article is a stinking pile of woo as well as lies.

The US didn't lead anyone away from silver and gold-backed currency. The US was a bit player on the world economic stage when a plunge in silver prices caused depressions worldwide in the 1880's. Backing currency on the fickle prices of gold and silver is idiocy. They make fine conductors of electricity and pretty jewelry, but that's about it. China and Russia aren't going down that road either. Nor is anyone else that I know of.

There's a reason countries abandoned using precious metals to back currency - and the depression in the 1880's and 1890's figured prominently.

Besides subjecting entire economies to the fickle nature of silver and gold prices, there simply isn't enough of it to go around.

The US Government has ~$235 billion in gold reserves, and over $11 trillion in outstanding money, every cent of which would need to be backed. Unless you want to shrink the US economy over 45-fold, it's a terrible idea.
 
Next to the Chinese the Russians are the most inscrutable players

Gotta love the Racial Stereotypes.
I am sure the evil moneylending Joos are not far behind.
 
Gotta love the Racial Stereotypes.
I am sure the evil moneylending Joos are not far behind.
Everyone knows the Joooos are the ones making $$$$$$$ from the Federal Reserve Bank!
 
The US Government has ~$235 billion in gold reserves, and over $11 trillion in outstanding money, every cent of which would need to be backed. Unless you want to shrink the US economy over 45-fold, it's a terrible idea.

WildCat -- congratulations. You just graduated to my ignore list. See signature below. Reason: You don't listen to explanations, and you don't refute arguments. I explained how the amount of precious metal is irrelevant, it can back any amount of fiat currency. Read prior posts. At least I give you credit for being more polite. But I don't have infinite time to waste on people who refuse to open their eyes. I'm tired, also, of you saying everything I post is "woo". Bye and I wish all the best for you.

-Dave
 

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