JONES new paper:Microspheres and Temperatures

[The Almond]

The Almond/Chainsaw:

I think we have to accept that metallic particles have been found in the WTC dust by several research groups, not just by Jones' team:

Note the use of the words "metal" and "metal alloy"......

I'm perfectly willing to accept that metallic particles are part of the normal fire detris. Jones certainly didn't show any evidence of them, however. I would have really liked to see it in his paper if these single element metallic spherules are so abundant.

 

[bofors]

The Almond/Chainsaw:

I think we have to accept that metallic particles have been found in the WTC dust by several research groups, not just by Jones' team:

For example:

In the R. J. Lee Report on Damage Assessment at 130 Liberty Street we read on page 3:

“The conflagration activated processes that caused materials to form into spherical particle such as metals (e.g. Fe, Zn, Pb)…”

In a paper by E. M. Fireman entitled “Induced Sputum in Firefighters Exposed to WTC Dust” published in Environmental Health Perspectives 112(15), 1564, (2004), we read:

“Chemical analysis of the FDNY-FF samples revealed many elements, for example, titanium, zinc, mercury, gold, tin and nickel which were present as metal alloys or metal oxides in abundant large particles (size range 1 – 50 microns). The shape varied from irregular to SPHERICAL.”


Note the use of the words "metal" and "metal alloy"......

Thanks, let me know when you have the world-renown JREF "debunking" team straightened out on the difference between rust and iron.

 

[Arus808]

let us know when you post something that is backed by evidence

 

[BenBurch]

Many non-metallic things appear metallic with reflected illumination at high magnifications.

Get out your microscope (you do have one, right?) and look at some of your house dust!

Now, a few facts about house dust;

Did you know that a fairly large percentage of all house dust is meteoric in origin? It's true! Most meteors never reach the ground as solid bodies, they burn up. But what is left is dust and filters to the ground. It contains all manner of elements depending on the sort of meteor created it, lots of iron, nickel, carbon, sulphur, tin, etc. all in varying amounts. You will see some of that in your house dust.

You will see more skin flakes and tiny dead bugs and bug parts in it than you will probably like.

You will see wear particles from all manner of machinery, some metallic, some plastic, LOTS of black grains from tires.

And a fair number of the bits you will see will be metallic spherules.

And that is in every house on the whole planet.

Again, go get your microscope. Have a look.

 

[DGM]

Thanks, let me know when you have the world-renown JREF "debunking" team straightened out on the difference between rust and iron.

It's too bad that you don't have a clue. Do you need us to tutor you with the science stuff?

 

[T.A.M.]

Here is the difference between rust and iron...

Truther version of 9/11 - Rusty Bucket
Debunker Version - Iron Clad

TAM

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Thanks, let me know when you have the world-renown JREF "debunking" team straightened out on the difference between rust and iron.

What is the difference?

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=2000%2F36158&IA=WO2000%2F36158&DISPLAY=CLAIMS

4-Method as in Claim 1, characterised in that, before being introduced into the furnace, the mixture of said process gas and said additional gas is further mixed with 02 or air enriched with 02 in order to achieve the partial combustion of the H2 and the CO present in the reducing gas and thus raise the temperature in the reduction zone of the furnace to values of between 800°C and 1150°C, advantageously between 1000 and 1150°C.

5-Method as in Claim 1, characterised in that an injection of at least a hydrocarbon is provided in said reducing gas or together therewith in the reduction zone of the furnace.

6-Method as in Claim 5, characterised in that said hydrocarbon consists of CH4, in order to cooperate in the reduction of the iron oxide to metal iron, at the same time generating further H2 and CO.

7-Method as in Claim 1, characterised in that said reducing gas is introduced in at least two zones (12,14) of said furnace (10) arranged one above the other so as to achieve, in a controlled manner, a first stage of pre- heating and pre-reduction in the upper part (12) of the furnace (10) and a second stage of final reduction in the lower part (14) of the furnace (10).

8-Method as in Claim 6, characterised in that said methane represents between 6 and 20% in volume of said mixture of reducing gas.

Hydrogen - H2 reducing iron oxide melts steel and creates water.

http://www.hyweb.de/Knowledge/w-i-energiew-eng2.html

The highest burning temperature of hydrogen of 2318 °C

Hydrogen, in atomic from in a reducing Zone, enters steel and causes intergrandular melting, which can lead to blistering and globular formations.

Steam in an Oxidation zone can Oxidize steel into iron oxidize melting the steel at 600c.

This is freaking boring now please find some interesting fact, that would allow me to at least be interested enough to pursue it.

All you have to have is muliple oxidation and reductions Zones in which water is transformed into H2, by heated steel, Then reacts in a reducing Zone, with iron oxide and you have both phenomina explained.

By creating a mulitple reducing then Oxidizing zone in my experiment I did just that.

 

[Sizzler]

I don't mean to be dense, but I still don't see where RJ Lee Group Inc. reports ~5% iron microspheres. Maybe I need my hand held?

Check the dates. The one Jones sites is 2003.

Not that this matters for our discussion.

Nope

Sizzler, for the hundredth time, iron microspheres do not necessarily imply temperatures of > 1500 ^oC.

Is it a hundred already?

Sulfur-laden chemical fires, e.g. diesel fuel and gasoline fires, can catalyze this at much lower temperatures.

I am aware of this, but the likelihood of elemental sulfur being available during the pre-collapse fires is low considering SO2 needs to go through a reduction reaction. Also, the diesel fuel would have played into the matter during the rubble pile fires (not the office fires), long after the dust was distributed around NY.

Steel degrades at its surface at much lower temperatures even in the absence of sulfur.

Sure, but would such degradation cause spheres?

Mechanical sources for local heating exist, both before impact, during impact, and during collapse. If there were temperatures as high as you propose over any appreciable area, rather than tiny localized spots as governed by local chemistry and mechanics, there would be melted steel slag remaining.

Well, I'm not suggesting such temperatures were reached over any appreciable area. That is my point. It is rather unlikely that the fire's radiant temperature was above 1100C.

If we consider the dust samples had anywhere from .5%to5% iron content, I think this rules out a few tiny localized hot spots as the source of heat. Remember the fires only burnt just a few floors, whereas the dust was emitted from all floors and of that dust emitted, .5 to over 5% of it was iron.

I do wish Jones included iron content percentages for his dust samples in his paper.

This slag would cool and remain unmelted after the Pile fires and salvage operations, and therefore would be found. They were not.

Unless it was emitted from the building along with the dust in such a manner that suface tension caused microspheres to form.

Sizzler...

 

[Pardalis]

I don't understand why you guys keep entertaining these twoofers.

This would be not only the first time it ever has been done, but also the first test run ever for a technique never used before. The use of termite has never even been attempted, let alone in two 100 storeys high buildings.

Ockham's razor anyone?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

The Almond/Chainsaw:

I think we have to accept that metallic particles have been found in the WTC dust by several research groups, not just by Jones' team:

For example:

In the R. J. Lee Report on Damage Assessment at 130 Liberty Street we read on page 3:

“The conflagration activated processes that caused materials to form into spherical particle such as metals (e.g. Fe, Zn, Pb)…”

In a paper by E. M. Fireman entitled “Induced Sputum in Firefighters Exposed to WTC Dust” published in Environmental Health Perspectives 112(15), 1564, (2004), we read:

“Chemical analysis of the FDNY-FF samples revealed many elements, for example, titanium, zinc, mercury, gold, tin and nickel which were present as metal alloys or metal oxides in abundant large particles (size range 1 – 50 microns). The shape varied from irregular to SPHERICAL.”


Note the use of the words "metal" and "metal alloy"......

I agree they are there Apollo20 they have to be it is the chemistry of water, and acids.

Not doubt in my mind about that, all you need is multiple fire zones in one building to create the Micro spheres from the reactions in the fires.
Overall flame temperatures will not increase because the reactions energy goes into metals and H20, which recycle though the different zones in the buildings.

This was a very complicated fire and Dr. Jones's science well it is just to simple once again he is looking for the easy answers.
That is why his easy answers always turn out to be the wrong answers, it is a fire dynamics problem, and hand waving and ignoring the complicated dynamics has been done to often by both sides, NIST and Dr. Jones.
I guess I am just so bored now with nothing further to do nothing more to blow up or incinerate.

 

[Sizzler]

And I showed you why high temps are not to be unexpected.

Only in tiny localized areas, of only a few floors of 110 story building. Remember in atleast one sample, there is a iron content of over 5%.

Jones has a large range of particles (elements). Please have him narrow this down to the ones that have no natural explanation.

I think iron microspheres in fly ash in concrete has already been eliminated as a possible source in this thread by CC and a few others.


The article (JR Lee) makes none of these assumptions or draws any unscrupulous conclusions.

But it does, and I'll remind you again, it concludes melting iron as the mechanism, just like Jones concludes.

Lee Reports

Various metals(most notabley iron and lead) were melted during the WTC Event.....results in the formation of spherical particles due to surface temperature.

The only difference in any analysis is that Jones points out that radiant temperatures were not high enough to melt iron.

sizzler.....

 

[Pardalis]

Sizzler, your attention please:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105122

 

[Sizzler]

I don't understand why you guys keep entertaining these twoofers.

This would be not only the first time it ever has been done, but also the first test run ever for a technique never used before. The use of termite has never even been attempted, let alone in two 100 storeys high buildings.

Ockham's razor anyone?

start a new thread.

i'll entertain the larger picture for discussions sake if you want.

 

[Pardalis]

Controlled demolition theories are as insane as no planers.

Keep wasting your time.

 

[Sizzler]

Controlled demolition theories are as insane as no planers.

Keep wasting your time.

So why keep wasting your time observing me wasting my time?

Whats worse?

 

[Pardalis]

I'm having a laugh, actually.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

This rare 9/11 footage may provide clues as to the source of the microspheres.

http://www.youtube.com/v/PUvAFsoV3xY&rel=1

 

[Gravy]

So why keep wasting your time observing me wasting my time?

Whats worse?

Sizzler, in the hours since we last communicated, what steps have you taken to contact experts in relevant fields, regarding this vital issue of yours? Have you done anything?

 

[Sizzler]

Sizzler, in the hours since we last communicated, what steps have you taken to contact experts in relevant fields, regarding this vital issue of yours? Have you done anything?

Well, I woke up, showered, brushed my teeth, walked my dog, ate breakfast, and now I am at work.

I'll get to it.

I haven't forgotten your advice.

 

[Sizzler]

RJ Lee is saying Jones' ideas are crap. You left out the key.



This is the key.

The fire in the WTC was big. And the energy of the collapse was a big event. The gravity collapse of each tower was more than 100 2,000 pounds bombs. This means every pieces of loose rust, each piece of dust, from the day the building was built, hidden in the steel, all the small particles still left from all the welds in the WTC in the 60s and 70s, were set loose on 9/11.

The fire was set with over 60,000 pounds of fuel. That makes the WTC fire by definition not a "normal" office fire! A normal office fire is fought, and does not have 315 tons of TNT heat energy fuel to start it!

Jones' was 4 years late and made up thermite, because there are no explosive sounds, no blasts, no bombs. But he has always been without evidence, he is backing in evidence, but failing.

because of the fire that accompanied the WTC Event[ /QUOTE] The expert Jones' uses blames all the particles on the collapse and on fire in the WTC.

So RJ LEE states the WTC fires did it.

The fire did it. Not thermite, not bombs, but fire. Gee an expert like RJ Lee may of found things that go boom, or fizzle like Jones dumb made up ideas of woo, but did not; are you a woo master like Jones?

Again....

Lee states:

Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC collapse.....results in the formation of spherical particles due to surface tension

melting temperature of iron= ~1500 degrees C.

so unless radiant temperatures were ~1500 degrees C....there is an anomaly occurring here.