JONES new paper:Microspheres and Temperatures

[Sizzler]

How hot should this "office fire" have gotten? Please include local temps. If you don't understand this (it's been covered here to death) you can't accept claims that these temps are high. Does this make sense? That article does go into how local temps can get very high.

I think a realistic temperature for the office fires is 1100C.

Also, the fires didn't last that long, and they weren't all that insulated either.

How hot do you do think the fires could have gotten in the pre-collapse office fire?

I've seen sources from JOM that state the steel temps in the office fire of WTC would have reached between 750 and 850 C.

 

[twinstead]

Arguments from incredulity are beneath you, Sizzler. I know it's hard, I'm guilty often myself, but you are supposed to be an intrepid investigator. You should be confirming your doubts with solid, corroborated evidence or throwing them out.

 

[DGM]

I think a realistic temperature for the office fires is 1100C.

Also, the fires didn't last that long, and they weren't all that insulated either.

How hot do you do think the fires could have gotten in the pre-collapse office fire?

I've seen sources from JOM that state the steel temps in the office fire of WTC would have reached between 750 and 850 C.

Wrong. Local temps!

Here's another article. Notice wood fires at almost 2000c.
http://www.derose.net/steve/resources/engtables/flametemp.html

Please try to learn and see that things are not as clear cut as Jones wants you to believe.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Thanks CC.

What is the chemical composition of the spheres you made?

And, I know the picture you posted is pretty fuzzy, but, isn't it a bit big, and not really that spherical?

They were like Dr. Joneses all over the map, It just depended on the source of the base materials, once the electrical wires and galvanized metals with PVC Ignited it was almost impossible to predict the formation, because the metals reacted with one another during formation.
I actually had some tested but discarded the data as Irrelevant do to the fact that the composition was so varied, wish I had keep the spectra now, I payed good money to a buddy to run the test on them at a local lab, wish I had keep the spectra now.
I even sent some spheres to Dr Jones that I created from acids formation of galvanized steel then subjected he iron chlorides to heating with paper, forming spheres.
The one in my hand is almost pure Fe 3O4 from HCl, and water, it is hollow from the hydrogen gas given off in the reaction.
I did two types of tests large scale tests, then small scale test to understand the complex dynamics observed in the large scale tests it was necessary to observe the reactions in the large scale tests, then duplicate the reactions on a smaller scale to retrieve more precise data.

 

[Sizzler]

Wrong. Local temps!

Here's another article. Notice wood fires at almost 2000c.
http://www.derose.net/steve/resources/engtables/flametemp.html

Please try to learn and see that things are not as clear cut as Jones wants you to believe.

Ok, so why would JOM site maximum steel temperatures at 750-850C?

I'm trying to understand.

 

[Sizzler]

They were like Dr. Joneses all over the map, It just depended on the source of the base materials, once the electrical wires and galvanized metals with PVC Ignited it was almost impossible to predict the formation, because the metals reacted with one another during formation.
I actually had some tested but discarded the data as Irrelevant do to the fact that the composition was so varied, wish I had keep the spectra now, I payed good money to a buddy to run the test on them at a local lab, wish I had keep the spectra now.
I even sent some spheres to Dr Jones that I created from acids formation of galvanized steel then subjected he iron chlorides to heating with paper, forming spheres.
The one in my hand is almost pure Fe 3O4 from HCl, and water, it is hollow from the hydrogen gas given off in the reaction.
I did two types of tests large scale tests, then small scale test to understand the complex dynamics observed in the large scale tests it was necessary to observe the reactions in the large scale tests, then duplicate the reactions on a smaller scale to retrieve more precise data.

Do you know any resources that describe what you have done?

Or any resources that describe such observations in other office fires?

 

[Gravy]

Ok, so why would JOM site maximum steel temperatures at 750-850C?

"The JOM?" In what paper?

I'm trying to understand.

Are you? Then you won't have any problem listing the experts you've contacted since you agreed that was the right thing to do.

You wouldn't just be JAQing off all over this board, would you? I mean, you care, don't you? After all, this is your issue.

 

[DGM]

Ok, so why would JOM site maximum steel temperatures at 750-850C?

I'm trying to understand.

Radiant temperatures. When you put a flame to anything the heat is not instantly transfered. The air around a flame is not as hot as the flame itself, right?

Jones is trying to convince people by stating things are not as complex as they actually are. I worked at a fire scene once where there was melted/burned (yes the metal was on fire) metal desks next to unburnt cardboard boxes. Jones wants you to believe that things are cut and dry.

 

[Sizzler]

Radiant temperatures. When you put a flame to anything the heat is not instantly transfered. The air around a flame is not as hot as the flame itself, right?

Jones is trying to convince people by stating things are not as complex as they actually are. I worked at a fire scene once where there was melted/burned (yes the metal was on fire) metal desks next to unburnt cardboard boxes. Jones wants you to believe that things are cut and dry.

Gimme a little temperature lesson if you don't mind.

Local temperature is the temperature of the actual flame?

And radiant temperature is the temperature of the environment around the flame?

 

[Sizzler]

"The JOM?" In what paper?

Are you? Then you won't have any problem listing the experts you've contacted since you agreed that was the right thing to do.

You wouldn't just be JAQing off all over this board, would you? I mean, you care, don't you? After all, this is your issue.

I intend to take his paper to the local university.

Should I watch American Next Top Model until I do, or is it ok for me to post on this site in the mean time?

 

[Gravy]

Radiant temperatures. When you put a flame to anything the heat is not instantly transfered. The air around a flame is not as hot as the flame itself, right?

Jones is trying to convince people by stating things are not as complex as they actually are. I worked at a fire scene once where there was melted/burned (yes the metal was on fire) metal desks next to unburnt cardboard boxes. Jones wants you to believe that things are cut and dry.

He's referring to the 2001 paper by Eager & Musso, which was written before any investigation was complete.

Why he assumes the iron microspheres came from structural steel, I don't know.

Why he refuses to contact experts, I can guess.

 

[Gravy]

I intend to take his paper to the local university.

And do what with it?

Should I watch American Next Top Model until I do, or is it ok for me to post on this site in the mean time?

Stop JAQing off all over this forum. Got it, concerned citizen?

 

[Sizzler]

He's referring to the 2001 paper by Eager & Musso, which was written before any investigation was complete.

Why he assumes the iron microspheres came from structural steel, I don't know.

Why he refuses to contact experts, I can guess.

I'm not refusing to contact experts Gravy.

I will take your advice, but that will entail me going to the university and asking an expert.

Until then, this is a blog for conspiracy, and I think I have every right to be asking all the questions I want.

If you think I am just JAQing, then stop communicating with me.

 

[Sizzler]

And do what with it?

Stop JAQing off all over this forum. Got it, concerned citizen?

Why are so concerned about me?

 

[Sizzler]

Stop JAQing off all over this forum. Got it, concerned citizen?

Is this a threat or a mere suggestion?

 

[DGM]

Gimme a little temperature lesson if you don't mind.

Local temperature is the temperature of the actual flame?

Can be. Truth of the matter is in a fire you can have very high temps on one side of a room and much lower on the other. Fire is a complex chemical process. If your interested in tis there are thousands of books on this.

And radiant temperature is the temperature of the environment around the flame?

Hold your hand near a flame, does it get warm without touching the flame? That's radiant. It's a method of transferring heat to another object (including air). There is loss involved in this process so things around the flame are not as hot as the flame itself.

You really need to look some of this up for yourself if you really want to understand it.

Dislaimer..........I'm am not a scientist this is my understanding.

 

[Sizzler]

Can be. Truth of the matter is in a fire you can have very high temps on one side of a room and much lower on the other. Fire is a complex chemical process. If your interested in tis there are thousands of books on this.




Hold your hand near a flame, does it get warm without touching the flame? That's radiant. It's a method of transferring heat to another object (including air). There is loss involved in this process so things around the flame are not as hot as the flame itself.

You really need to look some of this up for yourself if you really want to understand it.

Dislaimer..........I'm am not a scientist this is my understanding.

Thanks.

So, how should this information change my understanding of the Jones' paper then?

 

[DavidJames]

Thanks.

So, how should this information change my understanding of the Jones' paper then?

No, thank you Sizzler, this quote just made me laugh, good thing my coffee cup was safely on the desk.

 

[Sizzler]

No, thank you Sizzler, this quote just made me laugh, good thing my coffee cup was safely on the desk.

no problem. care to answer the question?

 

[DGM]

Thanks.

So, how should this information change my understanding of the Jones' paper then?

I'm hoping that it will lead you to question his work. Why does he not look at natural or preexisting sources? If you are looking for evidence to support his work I suggest you ask him for a pay check. He simply is not doing the work. The most important work in the scientific process is to find the things that disprove your conclusions and deal with them. Why does he skip this step?

Please think for yourself and ask the experts in the relevant fields. This forum is all about this type of thinking. You don't ask the garbage man about the mole on your leg, right? Why doesn't the "truth" movement enlist experts in the relevant fields?