The case against Dr. Paul

[dudalb]

Interesting that a poster who has made clear his immense dislike for the US is urging us to abolish our Military.
No ulterior motive there.

 

[dudalb]

Really? What about Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the countries of Europe? How are they doing?

I like where dash says we should abolish the Federal Government.
Also most of the sources he gives are to economist who, to put it mildly,are not held in high regard by most legit economist.

 

[Patejdl]

The Fed needs to be reigned in, but not by abolishing it and letting the corporations decide the monetary policies for the country, which is what Libertarianism would lead to.

But even libertarians understand that abolishing the Fed would take a very long time. You can't abolish it over night. Just look for how long it's been running. It could even take up to 10 years from now on to put the FED to rest. Such a long time means that many many things could be done to prevent things that would happen if we abolished it over night.

It's not wise to imply that they're stupid for saying that "We should abolish the FED". It's maybe more wise to say that they're doing a very bad job in explaining how would the "put the FED to rest" plan really look like. I've seen RP explain the long time of FED closing only on 2 ocassions. Because of this I understand the reactions but I don't really like the passivity in trying to really understand it.

 

[dash]

Really? What about Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the countries of Europe? How are they doing?

To me socialism is a situation where the government mandates the economy. Within socialism shortages will always exist because the bureacracy can't respond fast enough. The free market is the only way to allow resources to balance out.

There are degrees of socialism. I'm just not happy with the fruit of my labor (my income) being taken by force and used without my consent. Social Security is a giant ponzi scheme.

-Dave

 

[dash]

Also most of the sources he gives are to economist who, to put it mildly,are not held in high regard by most legit economist.

These economists are all part of the problem, the whole system is corrupt. It's the Ministry Of Truth situation. We receive propaganda. Read the book 1984 if you haven't already. Keynsian economics theory appears to be the norm in our colleges. It doesn't work. The economy is collapsing around you, but you don't realize it yet. The powers that be are in denial/reassurance mode.

An economy based upon debt, continued currency devalution and massive trade imbalances must eventually readjust. It can't go on forever. We're seeing the adjustment right now.

-Dave

 

[dash]

Interesting that a poster who has made clear his immense dislike for the US is urging us to abolish our Military.
No ulterior motive there.

Do we really need endless wars? Are you happy with the situation in Iraq? Let's go back to a Constitutional government -- the purpose of the military is to protect our sovereignty. It's not to go meddling in the world, propping up unpopular governments whenever it suits our business interests.

I love the American ideal. What America has become is...something else. I want my country back.

-Dave

 

[dash]

But even libertarians understand that abolishing the Fed would take a very long time. You can't abolish it over night. Just look for how long it's been running. It could even take up to 10 years from now on to put the FED to rest. Such a long time means that many many things could be done to prevent things that would happen if we abolished it over night.

It's not wise to imply that they're stupid for saying that "We should abolish the FED". It's maybe more wise to say that they're doing a very bad job in explaining how would the "put the FED to rest" plan really look like. I've seen RP explain the long time of FED closing only on 2 ocassions. Because of this I understand the reactions but I don't really like the passivity in trying to really understand it.

A thing to keep in mind is there might not be a lot of time. We can either intentionally abolish the Fed, or we go on business as usual and there is a systemic collapse. But even abolishing the Fed won't prevent a collapse. It's too far gone.

It all comes down to international competition. China, India, Brazil, other countries are embracing free market concepts. The US can stagnate by comparison, while they continue to thrive. So we're just left in the dust. While we're debating economic theory, the rest of the world is enjoying the World Of Tomorrow.

Unless the US empire can manage to sabotage the rest of the world's efforts. We can enjoy a better quality of life by either being better, or preventing the rest of the world from thriving. Lately we've been opting for the second option. The US is going to get shrugged off like any other parasite. We don't need any more empires, or one world government. Free trade amongst nations is the key, survival of the fittest. Rather than wars of conquest, expansion will be more of an economic "merger". We'll all do well.

-Dave

 

[volatile]

There are degrees of socialism. I'm just not happy with the fruit of my labor (my income) being taken by force and used without my consent.

Who do you think pays for the roads you drive on, the police who pound the streets, the schools that educate your children and the army that defends your country? That's socialism, my friend, and not only that, it's society.

The socialist countries of the world, particularly those in northern Europe, are the richest, happiest, safest, least-crime-ridden, best educated ones in the world. "Socialism" does not mean controlled economies; it means fostering a sense of society, community, friendship and interaction through policies which do not discriminate, and realises that things are better if we all just get along. Look at Sweden, Norway and Finland. Look at Canada and New Zealand. Countries with a strong sense of the social contract are better places to live.

To wit, the "Top Ten Best Countries to Live in", according to The Economist, are:

1 Ireland - long governed by a leftist coalition ("Electorally, Fianna Fáil is second only to the Swedish Social Democratic Party in its proportion of tenure in government")


2 Switzerland - Very socialist and progressive, particularly in their electoral system.


3 Norway - Governed by a Red-Green coalition of the Labour, Socialist Left and Green parties


4 Luxembourg - Governed by Christian Social Party, a centre-right party, but with a continuous presence in government by the Socialist Party.


5 Sweden - "The Swedish Social Democratic Party has played a leading political role since 1917" Note: The SSD's politics is a revision of Marxism.


6 Australia - Recent political history dominated by centre-right Liberal Party. The first such country in this list. Nevertheless, the Encyclopaedia Britannica says "Socialism has deep roots in the British Commonwealth countries of Australia, New Zealand, and Canada. "


7 Iceland - Largest party is the right-wing Independence Party, though it governs in coalition with the Social Democrats. For 12 years previously, the governing party was the Progessives, a liberal and agrarian centrist party.


8 Italy - Pretty right wing under Berlusconi, though currently over 300 seats in the main chamber are occupied by leftists, including over 50 communists. I'd think you'd be hard pushed to state that Italian politics is not largely dominated by socialist values.


9 Denmark - Obviously a very socialist nation. Over 50% of seats in the legislative taken by leftist, socialist parties.


10 Spain - Governed by the Socialist Worker's Party.


So, in a quick straw poll, in the 10 Best Countries to Live, 6 have long, embedded traditions of socialism, and 4 are or have very recently been governed by right wing parties but have a long history of socialist values and / or featured socialists in coalition governments.

Where the sense of social cohesion, social unity, community, shared responsibility, and common wealth are strong, countries benefit, on every conceivable measure (including economically, surprisingly).

(The USA was a commendable 13th; UK came in 29th)

 

[Suddenly]

If you like to waste your money this way..

Given that I'm not a fan of the Iraq war for geopolitical reasons, and looking at it from a strictly cash perspective....

2K/yr is a small price to me to send a depsot through the checkout line...

I've been involved in poker pots bigger than that...

 

[ZenFountain]

@volatile

I've used that same argument before, but I'm not convinced more social services at the federal level are going to be the best answer for America. Administration for 300 million citizens is entirely different than administration for less than 20 million, and there are other factors that make heavier socialization in Europe more workable and sustainable than America. Look at Medicare / Medicaid for example, the programs have been around for barely 40 years and will be insolvent in the near future without a hefty payroll tax hike. We've seen our tax dollars sent away to the federal government for two generations to witness incredible waste on defense and war, the thought of raising taxes to provide new social services is not going to fly with the level of cynicism embedded in the conscience (if there is such a thing) of America.

 

[Suddenly]

I just don't like socialism.

Which seems to be the meat of your argument...

Socialism doesn't work -- the soviet union proved that.

The Soviet Union was a communist dictatorship corrupt to the gills. The introduction of socialist programs into the United States has caused great prosperity. This is a breathtakingly silly claim.

Pure capitalism is a disaster. Pure socialism is a disaster. Sticking to one or the other based on pure ivory tower ideals without any serious study of history is faith based politics, pure and simple.

Anyway just keep your eyes open in the months/years to come. You'll see how it all comes out. The mainstream media is starting to cover the economy a bit.

-Dave

I've been hearing for decades from libertarians that the end is near... If things do collapse the libertarians, peak oil freaks, religious nutters, white nationalists, and other doomsday cults will be running into each other to claim they caused it.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Really? What about Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the countries of Europe? How are they doing?

Poorly.


Please do not quote UN studies of happiness which count larger government programs as equating to happiness.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

What I find assuming is that few detractors of Ron Paul do little but name-call. Nothing about the policies. Playground finger-pointing.

 

[WildCat]

If you have bonds, you hold dollars. The bonds have fixed yields. Some 20 trillion dollars in bonds are held by Americans. When the dollar is devalued, this money evaporates.

Nonsense, that's why a premium is built into the interest rate and price of a bond for just this type of risk.

This wealth is like a huge croud in a burning building. Some people near the exit can save themselves. Most are going to burn to death. It's a question of whether the place blows up in flames, or whether they just get slowly baked. Either way the vast majority is going to be wiped out.

Sorry, soup line America isn't happening no matter how much you cry about the sky falling.

Regarding the conterfeiting, the point is that by creating more dollars out of thin air, that makes all dollars in circulation worth that much less. That's the essence of inflation.

Wait, are you the latest Ron Paul supporter to claim the Fed actually prints money? It doesn't... and are you going to take me up on my offer to relieve you of all those counterfeit bills or not?

During the 1971 to 1980 period gold went from some $42 per ounce to up over $800. All the conditions are worse now than then.

And what happened after 1980? Gold has zero intrinsic value, and has value only because people like shiny things. People's taste for shiny things waxes and wanes, just as it always has.

I know this is scary stuff, hard for you to believe. It's because the government has been cooking the numbers. The economy is crashing even as we speak. You need to study about economics more -- real economics, not the Keynsian voodoo economics taught in colleges and promoted by the Federal Reserve. Read "Crash Proof" by Peter Schiff. There is no safety in numbers. The middle class in the USA is going to get royally screwed over. It's actually ongoing.

Ah, real economics! That's any economics that agrees with you, and hasn't been practiced by any country with any economy to speak of in, what, 80 years or so? I'm still waiting to hear how a gold-backed $13 trillion economy can work, when all the gold ever mined in the history of the earth is only worth $1 trillion or so. Are we ging to wage war with other countries to steal their gold? Confiscate it from private hands? And even then we'd be short 13-fold!

Pay attention to the housing bubble. ARM mortgage defaults. Fixed rate mortgage defaults. They're all ballooning. The derivatives scandals have only just begun. The whole mess is unwinding. Some 400-500 trillion dollars in derivatives are getting wiped out.

While you run around screaming that the sky is falling, smart investors are buying real estate while the prices are low.

Anyway you made a point about gold backing. There is a really good chance precious metals will get accepted as monetary metals again.

I suggest reading Jason Hommel's various essays here:

http://www.silverstockreport.com/ssrarchive.htm
He's a real silver enthusiast, but he's got a lot of useful information on the economy. Take a look at
http://www.europac.net/
Read the articles in the "Economic & Market News" it's a story of doom and gloom. The mainstream media is just beginning to cover this stuff.

In times of economic upheaval, gold will always be remembered.

This stuff is real, I'm not making it up. Do your own research.

-Dave

No, no country is going back to a gold standard Or silver. Too little precious metal chasing too many units of value.

And you know another problem with gold-backed currency? People tend to horde gold, causing deflation. And deflation is far worse for the economy than a small controlled inflation is. Maybe you'd make it illegal to hold gld privately to counter this?

 

[volatile]

Poorly.


Please do not quote UN studies of happiness which count larger government programs as equating to happiness.

I mentioned above a study carried out by The Economist magazine, which took into account "t not just income, but other factors considered important to people's satisfaction and well-being. They included health, freedom, unemployment, family life, climate, political stability and security, gender equality and family and community life."

All the top ten countries are ones with a strong sense of socialism amongst the electorate. Socialism works.

 

[volatile]

What I find assuming is that few detractors of Ron Paul do little but name-call. Nothing about the policies. Playground finger-pointing.

Did you miss the "What would the USA look like under Ron Paul?" thread, which involved detailed critiques of his terrible, terrible economic, foreign, social, trade and domestic policies? Or all the ones about how stupid abolishing the Fed would be?

Keep up at the back, Gnome.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

I mentioned above a study carried out by The Economist magazine, which took into account "t not just income, but other factors considered important to people's satisfaction and well-being. They included health, freedom, unemployment, family life, climate, political stability and security, gender equality and family and community life."

All the top ten countries are ones with a strong sense of socialism amongst the electorate. Socialism works.

Why does Europe need the American military to defend it?

If socialism works, why can they not pay for their own defense?

 

[volatile]

@volatile

I've used that same argument before, but I'm not convinced more social services at the federal level are going to be the best answer for America. Administration for 300 million citizens is entirely different than administration for less than 20 million, and there are other factors that make heavier socialization in Europe more workable and sustainable than America. Look at Medicare / Medicaid for example, the programs have been around for barely 40 years and will be insolvent in the near future without a hefty payroll tax hike. We've seen our tax dollars sent away to the federal government for two generations to witness incredible waste on defense and war, the thought of raising taxes to provide new social services is not going to fly with the level of cynicism embedded in the conscience (if there is such a thing) of America.

Oh, I agree about the cynicism. Britain has it too, except we're stuck in this weird middle ground of wanting both US level taxation and European level social services. You can't have both.

You're totally correct that this is a mindset issue. Individualism vs. collectivism. Get along or squabble. Share or Horde. Things won't change overnight in the US, but I'm sure you've noticed a growing sense of disgust in the US at the paucity of socialised healthcare. American citizens look abroad and see the NHS, or the European health systems, and feel rightly aggrieved that they, in one of the wealthiest nations on earth, still risk dying due to an inability to pay medical bills.

The experiments have been done. Socialism won.

 

[volatile]

Why does Europe need the American military to defend it?

If socialism works, why can they not pay for their own defense?

Does it? And anyway, when was the last time anyone invaded Sweden, Ireland or Switzerland anyway? Who does Denmark need defending from?

And: If the US are so independently capable, why are they putting missile defences in the UK? Or building bases in Qatar?

Socialist countries are richer, happier, safer. The world is a better place when people cooperate. Adversarial individualism is a poor choice given the obvious benefits of cooperation and a sense of social cohesion.

 

[dash]

Who do you think pays for the roads you drive on, the police who pound the streets, the schools that educate your children and the army that defends your country? That's socialism, my friend, and not only that, it's society.

Yipe! I'd better extricate myself ASAP. Anyway I was only mixing in other threads to get my post count up to 50 so I could turn on a signature and an avatar.

Roads: I'd support gas taxes if the money goes only to pay for roads and bridges. It's the perfect solution. Instead gas taxes go into the general revenue fund.

Police: Paid for by local + state government, as it should be.

Schools: Paid for by local + state government. Federal funding is/should be negligible.

Army: Paid for by federal government. That's all I want the federal government to do, defend the nation's borders.

-Dave