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JONES new paper:Microspheres and Temperatures

He trys to compare the WTC dust to Dust found in ordinary bulidings. Lets say jones didn't tamper with the results, is it possible jones science is right but his explaination is wrong? Couldn't that extra Iron of come from a number of different things other than thermite?

How do you even compare the two dusts?
 
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He trys to compare the WTC dust to Dust found in ordinary bulidings. Lets say jones didn't tamper with the results, is it possible jones science is right but his explaination is wrong? Couldn't that extra Iron of come from a number of different things other than thermite?

How do you even compare the two dusts?

Jones didn't do the comparison himself. He cited a previous study (non-truth movement) that compared WTC dust to building dust.

Office dust has a content of ~0.05% iron whereas the specific sample in the study had a content of ~5%.

In addition some of the iron content was in the form of microspheres, suggesting it was once molten and became a sphere due to surface tension when it fell through air.

Jones also identified similar microspheres in the samples he has.

Both Jones and previous scientists state that the microspheres are a result of melting iron content of the building.

The difference is that the previous scientists cited office fire as the mechanism that caused the iron to melt. Jones on the other hand sees a gap in the temperatures needed to melt iron and the temperatures cited in the WTC.

Once again, iron melts at ~1500C and the office fires were at a maximum, 1100C.

So the question is, how did iron melt in temperatures less than what is needed?

And, why didn't NIST include any of this in their analysis of the failure of the steel?
 
From the report, pg 10:

Table 2. Maximum Gas Temperature Reached in WTC Fires [20]
Analysis
°C
°F

Thomas Eager analysis
1,000
1,832

NIST analysis
1,000
1,832

Torero, Quintiere, Steinhaus
1,100
2,012

You do realize, of course that those temperatures are well above the range needed to cause the 1" diameter floor truss diagonals to fail. If you accept those temperatures as accurate estimates of the hot gas layers inside the building, then you have to admit that the floor trusses were vulnerable to failure.

When one part of a truss fails, the whole truss fails. When the whole truss fails, the truss sags and pulls in at the columns it is attached to, regardless of the temperature of that column.
 
Jones didn't do the comparison himself. He cited a previous study (non-truth movement) that compared WTC dust to building dust.

Office dust has a content of ~0.05% iron whereas the specific sample in the study had a content of ~5%.

In addition some of the iron content was in the form of microspheres, suggesting it was once molten and became a sphere due to surface tension when it fell through air.

Jones also identified similar microspheres in the samples he has.

Both Jones and previous scientists state that the microspheres are a result of melting iron content of the building.

The difference is that the previous scientists cited office fire as the mechanism that caused the iron to melt. Jones on the other hand sees a gap in the temperatures needed to melt iron and the temperatures cited in the WTC.

Once again, iron melts at ~1500C and the office fires were at a maximum, 1100C.

So the question is, how did iron melt in temperatures less than what is needed?

And, why didn't NIST include any of this in their analysis of the failure of the steel?
Why have you not read CrazyChainsaws posts? Do you not believe his work? Iron spheres can form at low temps. Jones needs to know what formed them to know the temps. He does not. Go to CC's profile and read his posts and stop being so lazy.
 
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At any rate, Jones has not given any consideraion to the fact that his microspheres might predate the collapse in the form of coal based fly ash.
 
Why have you not read CrazyChainsaws posts? Do you not believe his work? Iron spheres can form at low temps. Jones needs to know what formed them to know the temps. He does not. Go to CC's profile and read his posts and stop being so lazy.

Blood and ham sandwhiches wrapped in aluminum foil?

CC is a truthful guy, it isn't that I don't believe him, I'd just like to see something in print.
 
At any rate, Jones has not given any consideraion to the fact that his microspheres might predate the collapse in the form of coal based fly ash.

Well he isn't the first.

RJ Lee report states.

Quote:
Particles of materials that had been modified by exposure to high temperature, such as spherical particles of iron and silicates, are common in WTC Dust because of the fire that accompanied the WTC Event, but are not common in "normal" interior office dust.
 
But if the microspheres are trapped in the structure during the construction phase and then released when the building violently collapses.........

....but then, you knew that already.
 
Blood and ham sandwhiches wrapped in aluminum foil?

CC is a truthful guy, it isn't that I don't believe him, I'd just like to see something in print.
Rice husks burning in a pile. (from this thread /The Almond). Flame temps reach 1000's of degrees. Building fires are quoted as "air temp". Local high temps are not unexpected. Light a piece of steel wool on fire with a match and see how hot things get. Jones needs to account for natural occurrences and he won't. Why do you think this is?
 
Rice husks burning in a pile. (from this thread /The Almond). Flame temps reach 1000's of degrees. Building fires are quoted as "air temp". Local high temps are not unexpected. Light a piece of steel wool on fire with a match and see how hot things get. Jones needs to account for natural occurrences and he won't. Why do you think this is?

again, something in print would be nice.
 
But if the microspheres are trapped in the structure during the construction phase and then released when the building violently collapses.........

....but then, you knew that already.

Right...but...

We likewise observe high-iron, relatively low oxygen spheres (e.g., below right and Fig. 4), which we find are unlike spheres gathered from cutting structural steel with an oxyacetylene torch.
 
Jones needs to account for natural occurrences and he won't. Why do you think this is?


He isn't the first to suggest that iron melted in the WTC fires.

RJ. Lee Report.

"Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC Event, producing spherical metallic particles."

So Jones isn't exactly alone in this.
 
This whole line of debate confuses me.

It appears that the ONLY way these 'spherical metallic particles' could be considered in any way, shape, or forum evidence of CD is if there was no possibility of them happening naturally (can form whether it was CD or not) or couldn't have existed prior to the attack.

Help this scientifically-challenged person out; has this been established?
 
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He isn't the first to suggest that iron melted in the WTC fires.

RJ. Lee Report.



So Jones isn't exactly alone in this.
Did you "melt" the steel wool yet? Flame temps are very hot. Look it up, try it yourself.

What everyone here is trying to get through to you is to do some work on your own. You will find it much more rewarding and usefully technique of learning than just having people do it for you. This is a skill that will serve you well long into the future. Bet the "truth" movement doesn't suggest you research science at a library.
 
The paper I posted suggests microspheres are not expected to be found naturally in the WTC fire.

No one as of yet has linked me to a source showing how microspheres could be formed in the WTC fires.

Ironbubble2.JPG


Look up Iron oxidation, common phenomena above 980c in air, or at 600c with water, or with chlorides.
Ps. Iron micro-spheres would have been common in the world trade center fires from oxidized wiring, thin steels and other sources as well as some in the steam pipes held in solution in the steam that ran into the building for the heating system.

This is really boring Sizzler, because Jones is ignoring chemical reactions that can do what he claims at lower temperature then he claims.

PS. I have actually created thousands of macro and probably millions of micro-spheres just from fires, so what is so difficult about it the oxidation or reduction of the metals themselves can produce enough thermal energy to do everything Dr. Jones finds abnormal.

A large number of spheres could have actually been created prier to collapse, and then more during the collapse the important point is not melting temperature but oxidation, and reduction temperatures!

http://www.p1m.com/FS2.htm
Lead gases and soot could be produced when PVC products contain lead as a stabilizer as described in Section 6.16.b.

The thermal expansion of metals can allow vapors of hydrogen chloride gases to penetrate the outer layer of the protective coating, and the metal itself. The effects of PVC on metal surfaces is not readably noticeable and can take up to 2 to 4 weeks before oxidation/corrosion is visible.

Entrap Hydrogen chloride gas with H2O in the vapor form, and not only do you get penetration of metals but oxidation of them at over 3000C.

This is freaking boring now been there done the experiments know the answers. HCl opens metals up to Oxygen, from water in the vapor phase, that leads to the release of hydrogen and hydrogen Embrittlement, or the combustion of hydrogen at the metal oxygen interface.

Been there done that, Dr. Jones is way behind in his research now.
 
[qimg]http://chainsawsanders.com/Ironbubble2.JPG[/qimg]

Look up Iron oxidation, common phenomena above 980c in air, or at 600c with water, or with chlorides.
Ps. Iron micro-spheres would have been common in the world trade center fires from oxidized wiring, thin steels and other sources as well as some in the steam pipes held in solution in the steam that ran into the building for the heating system.

This is really boring Sizzler, because Jones is ignoring chemical reactions that can do what he claims at lower temperature then he claims.

PS. I have actually created thousands of macro and probably millions of micro-spheres just from fires, so what is so difficult about it the oxidation or reduction of the metals themselves can produce enough thermal energy to do everything Dr. Jones finds abnormal.

A large number of spheres could have actually been created prier to collapse, and then more during the collapse the important point is not melting temperature but oxidation, and reduction temperatures!

http://www.p1m.com/FS2.htm




Entrap Hydrogen chloride gas with H2O in the vapor form, and not only do you get penetration of metals but oxidation of them at over 3000C.

This is freaking boring now been there done the experiments know the answers. HCl opens metals up to Oxygen, from water in the vapor phase, that leads to the release of hydrogen and hydrogen Embrittlement, or the combustion of hydrogen at the metal oxygen interface.

Been there done that, Dr. Jones is way behind in his research now.

Thanks CC.

What is the chemical composition of the spheres you made?

And, I know the picture you posted is pretty fuzzy, but, isn't it a bit big, and not really that spherical?
 
At any rate, Jones has not given any consideraion to the fact that his microspheres might predate the collapse in the form of coal based fly ash.

The fly ash used in the concrete would not have contained micro spheres, the fly ash used in other products would.
Magnetic separation is used to remove the valuable Metallic Fe3O4-Fe2O3 from the fly ash before it is used in concrete, however fly ash used in asphalt-asphalt roofing, and some plastics does not go though magnetic separation. Also the Fe 304 micro-spheres sold are used in all kinds of products, from transformer cores to thermite oxidation materials with aluminum.
 
I've read that. However the microspheres would needed to have been created in the pre-colapse office fire. I'm not sure how the above article would apply to that.
How hot should this "office fire" have gotten? Please include local temps. If you don't understand this (it's been covered here to death) you can't accept claims that these temps are high. Does this make sense? That article does go into how local temps can get very high.
 

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