Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

[webfusion]

The winograd report http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/949384.html seems to indicate to me a lot of Israeli's would like it to be over.

Where does the winograd report touch upon this subject at all?
It is a review of military readiness, operations and capabilities, during the 2006 battles with Hezbollah. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the palestinians, or the status of the IDF in the occupied territories.

Israel has no current overall policy of expanding communities beyond the 1949 Lines, and the Prime Minister of Israel has made it clear that "all plans must come to him for approval"

Meanwhile, a private group is intending to go ahead to build in the SheikhJarra section of Jerusalem:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/949976.html
After the Six-Day War, the Sephardic Community Committee and the Ashkenazi Community Committee initiated proceedings to claim the area, on the grounds that it had belonged to jews since the 19th century. A Jewish neighborhood had existed at the site until 1948.


Is this "palestinian land" or not? You decide.

 

[mrbaracuda]

Looks nice, this Ramat Gan. I'll have a look at it later on in Google Earth.

I just thought about this "collective punishment" that's been in the talks here. Can't the qassam rocket attacks, or the suicide bombings also been labelled as collective punishment? Anyone thought of that?

 

[The Fool]

Looks nice, this Ramat Gan. I'll have a look at it later on in Google Earth.

I just thought about this "collective punishment" that's been in the talks here. Can't the qassam rocket attacks, or the suicide bombings also been labelled as collective punishment? Anyone thought of that?

Probably yes but I would say that it is more than that too. A lot of collective punishment is not violent physical attacks.

 

[webfusion]

An interesting assessment:

Every day that process (community-building in Jerusalem and elsewhere) goes on, Abbas looks more and more like a powerless puppet of Israel and the US.

He looks to me like a powerless puppet with HAMAS pulling the strings.


"Hamas has to end its coup in Gaza, accept all international obligations, and agree to hold early elections. After that, our hearts are open to any dialogue," PA President Abbas said at a news conference yesterday.
Abbas called Hamas an "illegitimate" party.

Senior Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar said in response: "The reality is that we are the legitimate government. We will not give up our legitimacy to anybody."

Yesterday, Hamas began trying to create a semblance of control at the Rafah crossing. In front of cameras and media, Zahar and other Hamas leaders on their way to meetings in Cairo had their PA passports stamped by Hamas border guards.

Meanwhile, here's some other news in relation to the OP:
Israel is sending thousands of vaccines for cattle and avian-borne diseases to the Gaza Strip, fearing that the border breach (and the un-controlled import of animals from Egypt) will bring a wave of sickness to the coastal area, Israeli officials said.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/949719.html

 

[FireGarden]

I just thought about this "collective punishment" that's been in the talks here. Can't the qassam rocket attacks, or the suicide bombings also been labelled as collective punishment? Anyone thought of that?

Yes.
I would call such acts collective punishment. The aim is to change government action by targeting citizens -- to pressure them to change the government.

People who want to defend such strategies should read the opening paragraphs of this article:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10663

On February 12, the statements of Osama bin Laden were reviewed in the New York Times by NYU law professor Noah Feldman. He described bin Laden's descent into utter barbarism, reaching the depths when he advanced "the perverse claim that since the United States is a democracy, all citizens bear responsibility for its government's actions, and civilians are therefore fair targets."

Making Joe Public pay.
Stains and sinners agree on something, then.

 

[webfusion]

Palestinians cry out in protest against Egyptian closure of the gates at Rafah.

Meanwhile, Hamas officials made it clear during their recent talks with Omer Suleiman, Egypt's chief of intelligence, they did not expect Egypt to supply humanitarian assistance but were asking for commercial deliveries for which they would pay.

Incredible.

Israel, their sworn enemy, is expected to supply humanitarian aid, fuel, and electricity without interruption (despite Israeli towns being under rocket barrages) while Egypt, their natural ally, is excused for failing to truck in aid supplies.

 

[webfusion]

By the way, I read somewhere that tens of thousands of palestinians were each given $300 in cash by HAMAS, in the days before the breach, and they were encouraged to all go over into Egypt and have a shopping spree. The whole thing was NOT SPONTANEOUS but rather completely orchestrated, at the highest levels.

Essentially, more Pallywood.

 

[The Fool]

By the way, I read somewhere that tens of thousands of palestinians were each given $300 in cash by HAMAS, in the days before the breach, and they were encouraged to all go over into Egypt and have a shopping spree. The whole thing was NOT SPONTANEOUS but rather completely orchestrated, at the highest levels.

Essentially, more Pallywood.

Sorry web...you don't get to do this unchallanged anymore. You read somewhere?? Is this like your secret source of info about rocket crates.

Can I just confirm that you are claiming that if Hamas had not handed out money (if they did, not established yet) That Palestinians would have simply stared at the open gates? Remember that you are claiming it was not spontaneous......This is a fairly outrageous claim on a couple of fronts. Firstly an unsupported claim that sums of cash were handed out to tens of thousands of people....tens of thousands web....do you realise the infrastructure and number of people you would need to achieve that without being observed and reported. Also an interesting claim that without this cash handout then Palestinians would not have gone to town to shop??

 

[webfusion]

Yes, it has been reported by various sources that $15-million in cash was distributed by HAMAS, to half-a-million gazans, each receiving $300.

The purpose of this was to have these vast numbers gather together at Rafah and move across the border all at once, to bring world attention to the "humanitarian crisis" of the gaza strip, as well as create cover for the transfer of rockets and other weaponry by cranes across the walls, as well as create cover for the infiltration of groups of terrorists into Sinai, so that it would be possible to perpetrate attacks into Israel along the border as far south as Eilat.

HAMAS intended all along to take over the crossing into Sinai, and they've planned that it would remain in their hands, permanantly.

 

[FireGarden]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/950393.html

Hamas’ deposed prime minister Ismail Haniyeh was quoted Saturday as saying that Gaza must forge stronger economic ties with Egypt as a way of disconnecting from Israel.

Haniyeh told the pro-Hamas daily Palestine in an interview published Saturday that Hamas would like to see Gaza’s economy cut its ties with Israel, and instead receive fuel and electricity from Egypt.

“We have said from the days of our election campaign that we want to move toward economic disengagement from the Israeli occupation,” Haniyeh said.

While Israel wants to maintain control of Gaza, Israel is responsible for Gaza. Egypt is respnsible for the degree of its co-operation, but Israel is first in line.

Hamas says they want to disengage from Israel. A "source" tells Haaretz that Israel is in favour. But no info on who the source might be.

 

[webfusion]

Sources are really hard to identify in this part of the world.
There are laws against (and stiff penalties for) talking to the press unless you are an official spokesperson.

You will frequently see this phrase:

"(such and such said something...) on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the press"


By the way, I would take an educated guess that Israeli Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai was the quoted source for the article you linked to above, FireGarden.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,325091,00.html

 

[Mycroft]

Israel, their sworn enemy, is expected to supply humanitarian aid, fuel, and electricity without interruption (despite Israeli towns being under rocket barrages) while Egypt, their natural ally, is excused for failing to truck in aid supplies.

I don't know that I would call Egypt their natural ally. They have in common being mostly Arabic and mostly Muslim and disliking Israel, but beyond that they don't seem to have many common interests. If anything, Egypt would be motivated to distance themselves from the Palestinians so as not to inflame their own problems with violent Islamic fundamentalism.

My own opinion, of course.

 

[Mycroft]

Can I just confirm that you are claiming that if Hamas had not handed out money (if they did, not established yet) That Palestinians would have simply stared at the open gates?

That's a pretty huge jump, don't you think? Nowhere does he claim anyone would simply have stared at anything.

You're displaying your usual mastery of the fallacy of the excluded middle. There is a huge gulf between saying Hamas was orchestrating the event (you know, for the cameras) to make it much larger, and saying that nothing at all would have happened if they had only blown up the walls but didn't do anything else.

Remember that you are claiming it was not spontaneous......This is a fairly outrageous claim on a couple of fronts. Firstly an unsupported claim that sums of cash were handed out to tens of thousands of people....tens of thousands web....do you realise the infrastructure and number of people you would need to achieve that without being observed and reported.

What kind of infrastructure would it take? Hamas controls numerous charities, unions and other organizations. Handing out money for a shopping spree would be generally something that would have popular support. It doesn't have to be done perfectly, you can make a lot of mistakes and still get the desired effect of generating huge crowds.

Or are you claiming it was the destruction of the wall that was spontaneous and not planned??

For weeks, according to one eyewitness, Palestinian militants had been methodically using blow torches to undermine the integrity of the metal fence.

Freelance Palestinian journalist Zuhair Najar said he was in Rafah a week ago working on a story about the network of smuggling tunnels under the border (used to get weapons in and militants out) when he saw militants doing some work on the iron fence.

Najar watched as the militants brought in a bulldozer and, within sight of Egyptian forces on the other side of the border, knocked down a small section of the fence. It was clear, Najar said, that the militants had methodically used blowtorches to cut through and weaken the metal before bringing it down.

The militants, who Najar said were with Hamas, told him they were preparing to repel any possible Israeli attack.

But now it is clear that it was part of a long, well-organized plan to bring down the wall and break the Israeli economic siege.

So you find it easy to believe that Hamas spends weeks organizing the actual breakout, but doesn't give any thought at all to what happens after? C'mon, that doesn't even pass the sniff test, does it?

Also an interesting claim that without this cash handout then Palestinians would not have gone to town to shop??

A dishonest straw-man, as usual. It's not a choice between all and nothing. How about if you try arguing with what is actually said and cease trying to impose an artificial choice between extremes?

 

[Mycroft]

While Israel wants to maintain control of Gaza, Israel is responsible for Gaza. Egypt is respnsible for the degree of its co-operation, but Israel is first in line.

While Hamas wants to maintain control of Gaza, Hamas is responsible for Gaza.

One easy thing they could do to improve the well being of their people is to radically change their foreign policy towards Israel. Another thing they could do is reconcile with Fatah.

Hamas says they want to disengage from Israel. A "source" tells Haaretz that Israel is in favour. But no info on who the source might be.

Nobody is stopping them from telling the guys firing the rockets to knock it off. That would be a good first step in disengagement.

 

[Kestrel]

While Hamas wants to maintain control of Gaza, Hamas is responsible for Gaza.

One easy thing they could do to improve the well being of their people is to radically change their foreign policy towards Israel. Another thing they could do is reconcile with Fatah.

Nobody is stopping them from telling the guys firing the rockets to knock it off. That would be a good first step in disengagement.

The Quassam rockets are being fired by another branch of Hamas, so apparently Hamas is interested in keeping the conflict going. Peace with Israel would leave them with the dreary task of fixing the economy and making life better for the citizens of Gaza.

 

[webfusion]

Mycroft, yes, of course, the word "ally" could be too strong when describing the Egyptians.
More like colleagues, with undertones of rivalry.

Kinda like New England Patriots and New York Giants NFL football teams in the Super Bowl. Both playing on the same field, but each having their own desire to "win" while their aims towards that end certainly are conflicting. (Go Patriots, BTW)

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Oh, I just noticed that Israel's Chief of the Secret Services, Yuval Diskin,
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/950571.html
told government ministers on Sunday that large quantities of advanced weapons have been smuggled into the Gaza Strip since the breach 12 days ago. Diskin listed long-range rockets (i.e.- Katyushas), anti-tank missiles, anti-aircraft missiles and materials used for rocket production as some of the arms brought into the coastal territory.


I have no idea if he specifically mentioned "cranes" were used to transfer these heavy crates of weapons, but it would follow to reason.

Also, in the same media report:
Security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, also said that dozens of Palestinian terrorists trained in Iran have now managed to return to Gaza, after months of being refused entry.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Kestrel, your comments are accurate. In fact, HAMAS realizes that they need to do something already and are now appealing to Egypt to increase commercial ties (including providing more electricy to the grid, beyond the 17% presently flowing).

I wonder if Egypt is willing to accept this added responsibility? I don't see much indication of it.

 

[The Fool]

Yes, it has been reported by various sources that $15-million in cash was distributed by HAMAS, to half-a-million gazans, each receiving $300.

you may want to redo the math...that adds up to $30 each. Can you provide one of the "various sources"?

The purpose of this was to have these vast numbers gather together at Rafah and move across the border all at once, to bring world attention to the "humanitarian crisis" of the gaza strip, as well as create cover for the transfer of rockets and other weaponry by cranes across the walls, as well as create cover for the infiltration of groups of terrorists into Sinai, so that it would be possible to perpetrate attacks into Israel along the border as far south as Eilat.

Lol...you just can't resist giving your "cranes lifting boxes of rockets" story another run...do you think people will eventually grow tired and just accept what you say?

HAMAS intended all along to take over the crossing into Sinai, and they've planned that it would remain in their hands, permanantly.

I'm sure they do..

I'm also sure that you and a lot of others wish to belittle the severity of the situation that the Palestinian population are in by specifically claiming that the flooding of Gazans through the blockade to buy stuff was "not spontaneous" That it had to be spurred on by a mass cash handout...something that you seem reluctant to provide any backup for.....like the crane lifted box of rockets , you will have to rely on simply repeating the claim as often as you can.

 

[gtc]

I'm also sure that you and a lot of others wish to belittle the severity of the situation that the Palestinian population are in by specifically claiming that the flooding of Gazans through the blockade to buy stuff was "not spontaneous"

People travelling out of Gaza may have been spontaneous, but the bombing of the border can hardly have been spontaneous. In fact, one of the border guards is claiming that it took months of preperation.

 

[webfusion]

T-F once again:

Lol...you just can't resist giving your "cranes lifting boxes of rockets" story another run...do you think people will eventually grow tired and just accept what you say?

The higest ranking officer of the Israeli Security Forces (Shin Bet) Yuval Diskin just announced today to the entire Israeli cabinet that he has proof positive.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/950571.html (already linked earlier, but I'll give this another run, just for the benefit of our resident die-hard skeptic, The Fool)

So, OK, T-F, what do you think happened? Let's hear YOUR version.

As for the distribution of cash, I can't find a single link anymore, I just remember reading it a few days ago, and I will hereby withdraw my claim, pending my finding any real evidence which would support it.
No big deal, it's not important, in the overall scheme of things. HAMAS may or may not have distributed money to the people of gaza in order to get them to turn out by the hundreds of thousands, but that question is moot. The real focus should be -- "Now What?"

I'm also sure that you and a lot of others wish to belittle the severity of the situation that the Palestinian population are in

They are in their "severe situation" because their leaders are 'effing terrorists.

 

[The Fool]

People travelling out of Gaza may have been spontaneous
, but the bombing of the border can hardly have been spontaneous. In fact, one of the border guards is claiming that it took months of preperation.

I'm sure they have nothing better to do than plan ways to thwart the blockade...to smuggle weapons, to fight and kill. But members here have to realise that you can't just Jazz up the story from day to day with dubious claims dressed up as facts.