Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

[The Fool]

Finding it difficult to find out the current status of the crossing. Is anyone able to find some info on whats happened since the first opening?

 

[webfusion]

Finding it difficult to find out the current status of the crossing. Is anyone able to find some info on whats happened since the first opening?

What do you want to know, T-F?
It's been rainy and cold; the Egyptians put up some chain-link fencing and a bit of barbed wire; the border is still basically un-controlled; a few groups of Egyptian soldiers are patrolling and sending back those they catch; trucks and taxis and donkey carts continue to move around; the Rafah shops are empty; there are negotiations in Cairo about who is to take over (the EU contingent says they will return to their posts if Abbas' PA forces are left in control, but not if HAMAS is there).

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/949334.html
Egyptians are disgruntled at the influx of palestinians

All in all, the party is over.

 

[Mycroft]

Nope...that was your latest "challenge" The issue was you asking me to name "the international law" which I did...gave you a big long list... So now you move on to the next goalpost. I'm not sure long you expect me to follow you from diversion to diversion. See if you can find someone else that will play your game.

Okay, so your claim the Fourth Geneva Convention makes it illegal to enforce an embargo against an enemy that wages war with you. You refuse (for good reason, I imagine) to cite the actual passage that makes it illegal, and it's not mentioned on that silly page of agitprop you linked to, so I took a gander at the actual text of GCIV from the website of the ICRC, and still can't find it. I believe that's because it's not there.

Please feel free to prove me wrong.

 

[The Fool]

Okay, so your claim the Fourth Geneva Convention makes it illegal to enforce an embargo against an enemy that wages war with you. You refuse (for good reason, I imagine) to cite the actual passage that makes it illegal, and it's not mention on that silly page of agitprop you linked to, so I took a gander at the actual text of GCIV from the website of the ICRC, and still can't find it. I believe that's because it's not there.

Please feel free to prove me wrong.

no it doesn't protect an "enemy who wages war on you" That is why you have to classify the non combatant civilian population of Gaza as "enemy who wage war on you" so you can cheer whatever is done to them... right down to the kindergarten children.

Pointless going much further......welcome back to ignore you hero.

 

[The Fool]

What do you want to know, T-F?
It's been rainy and cold; the Egyptians put up some chain-link fencing and a bit of barbed wire; the border is still basically un-controlled; a few groups of Egyptian soldiers are patrolling and sending back those they catch; trucks and taxis and donkey carts continue to move around; the Rafah shops are empty; there are negotiations in Cairo about who is to take over (the EU contingent says they will return to their posts if Abbas' PA forces are left in control, but not if HAMAS is there).

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/949334.html
Egyptians are disgruntled at the influx of palestinians

All in all, the party is over.

what are your thoughts on longer term results. I personally can't see Israel regaining the power to shut the crossing down without deploying troops which I doubt it wants to do. I read Olmert throwing about the Idea of a security fence along the entire Israel egypt border but someone was saying it would cost too much. Seems to me that Israel wants to dump Gaza in Egypts lap and be done with it..... Maybe this will lead Egypt towards wanting to support Abbas in gaining more power there.

 

[Mycroft]

It all revolves around the one point, the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza is wrong. Israel should allow the Palestinians to set up their own state.

In another post recently you bashed Israel for its unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, yet hear you seem to be calling for a unilateral withdrawal from the West Bank. Can you explain this apparent contradiction? It seems to me you damn them no matter what they do, but I'd be interested in hearing an explanation from you if you believe that impression is wrong.

<crickets chirping>

 

[Mycroft]

no it doesn't protect an "enemy who wages war on you" That is why you have to classify the non combatant civilian population of Gaza as "enemy who wage war on you" so you can cheer whatever is done to them... right down to the kindergarten children.

Once again, it's the choice of Hamas, the democratically elected leaders of the Palestinian-Arabs, to bring those kindergarten children into their war. It's Hamas who is responsible for the well being of those children, and Hamas who makes the choice that firing rockets at a much superior foe is more important than the safety of those children.

War is ugly. It's not ugly because Israel makes it ugly. It's inherently ugly. Hamas chooses war. Welcome to the real world.

If there were a way to enforce an embargo that would spare kindergarten children and only inflict hardships on the leaders who make foolish choices, I'd be all for it. But the truth is there is no such thing. Embargoes bring hardships to everyone.

But they're not illegal. Not by the 4th Geneva Convention or any other law.

Pointless going much further......welcome back to ignore you hero.

I accept your apology.

 

[Mycroft]

what are your thoughts on longer term results. I personally can't see Israel regaining the power to shut the crossing down without deploying troops which I doubt it wants to do. I read Olmert throwing about the Idea of a security fence along the entire Israel egypt border but someone was saying it would cost too much. Seems to me that Israel wants to dump Gaza in Egypts lap and be done with it..... Maybe this will lead Egypt towards wanting to support Abbas in gaining more power there.

I'd be willing to bet that if Egypt took over the Gaza Strip and grant citizenship to its population that in 10 years time it would be 90% depopulated.

 

[yairhol]

You could legitimise Abbas. If you let the Palestinians know that negotiation and peace will produce a meaningful result, HAMAS will be gone.

Abbas IS the legitimized leader regarding Israel and the U.S.
He was and still is supported by the Israeli and the international community. And still, Hamas remains.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3455384,00.html

On Monday, hundreds of Palestinians waited from the early hours of the morning at the Bituniya checkpoint near Ramallah for the return of West Bank prisoners who were released by Israel as a goodwill gesture to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3448025,00.html

Abbas asked Olmert during the meeting to release Palestinian prisoners as a goodwill gesture for the holiday of Ramadan. The prime minister promised to release prisoners to the West Bank and Gaza, but the leaders did not discuss the number of prisoner to be released.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3041660,00.html

A senior aide to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas urged Israel to be flexible on prisoner releases ahead of Tuesday's summit in Sharm el-Sheikh.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3463425,00.html

US to transfer $410 million to PA


'Unprecedented amount' part of effort to strengthen Abbas in battle against Hamas for public opinion. Finance Minister Bar-On: International community must aid PA economic recovery

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3461243,00.html

France will host a major donors' conference for the Palestinian Territories in December, French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said on Wednesday.

The conference, held at the request of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, aims to mobilize donors to provide political and financial support to the Palestinian Authority after a separate peace conference in the United States, he said.

There's a lot more.
What you suggest had been tried many many times before and still is.
How about the Palestinians show good will towards Israel for a change and free the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit? You know why this won't happen? because he is held by the Hamas which Abbas does not have control over.
And we're back to square 1.

 

[The Fool]

Abbas IS the legitimized leader regarding Israel and the U.S.
He was and still is supported by the Israeli and the international community. And still, Hamas remains.

Unfortunately one of his major problems, if not the biggest problem for abbas is the crippling effects of movement restrictions within the occupied territories. All these funds will still not be enough (according to the world bank) to overcome the crippling effect on the palestinian economy of the network of roadblocks and checkpoints throughout the west bank.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316932,00.html?sPage=fnc/world/mideast

"Rice will meet Sunday with Palestinian prime Minister Salam Fayyad to discuss the pledge. Fayyad is a banker whose clean reputation and efforts to reform the government are often praised by the Bush administration.

Fayyad is expected to raise Palestinian frustration that he has been unable to win assurances from Israel that it will ease stifling restrictions on Palestinian movement.

The World Bank has warned that unless Israel removes some of the physical and administrative obstacles to Palestinian travel and trade, donor countries may be wasting their money.

Even if the donors pay the full amount, the Palestinian economy would keep shrinking by about 2 percent a year as long as the Israeli restrictions remain in place, the World Bank wrote in a report issued Thursday."


You want to support him? any way you can help with this particular issue?

 

[yairhol]

You want to support him? any way you can help with this particular issue?

Israel has suppported Abbas enough over the years.
Of course donor money is not enough. It will never be enough. One of the sneaky characteristics of money is that no matter how much you have, it's never enough. Israel also doesn't have enough money and rellies on the U.S. So do many other countries.
Blockades and checkpoints will not be removed unless smuggling of weapons to attack Israel ceases and no more suicide bombers try to get into Israel.
I can promise you with 99% probability that as soon as Abbas dismantles Hamas and the other palestinian terroristic organizations, most of the checkpoints/blockades will be removed immediately. Why doesn't he dismantle them?

 

[The Fool]

Why doesn't he dismantle them?

Same reason you don't.

When He lost in Gaza do you think it was because he threw the game? I think the Challange for Israel is not to miss the chance to assist Abbas in winning the popular support of enough palestinians and the oportunity to build up enough power to achieve it.

 

[mrbaracuda]

Hey, in which region do you Israelis live btw?

 

[a_unique_person]

Abbas IS the legitimized leader regarding Israel and the U.S.
He was and still is supported by the Israeli and the international community. And still, Hamas remains.

It's all talk. What he needs is a viable state. The recent talks showed, Israel has no interest in that in the foreseeable future.

 

[yairhol]

It's all talk. What he needs is a viable state. The recent talks showed, Israel has no interest in that in the foreseeable future.

I thought you and I had something in common in order to reach an agreement on this subject but I stand corrected.
It's as if we have not discussed anything in this thread and we're starting all over again.

 

[yairhol]

Five Palestinians were captured on their way to Israel to perform a suicide bombing.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3500528,00.html

I'm sure their mothers are probably very proud of their sons but dissappointed they could not blow themselves up killing as many civilians as possible with them.

 

[a_unique_person]

I thought you and I had something in common in order to reach an agreement on this subject but I stand corrected.
It's as if we have not discussed anything in this thread and we're starting all over again.

We both still want peace, but differ as to why that doesn't seem to be possible.

What came out of the recent talks? Before the talks, it was already decided that borders and settlements were not up for discussion. In the meantime, Hamas seems to be able to claim it got more out of Israel than Fatah ever did. Prove them wrong.

 

[yairhol]

What came out of the recent talks? Before the talks, it was already decided that borders and settlements were not up for discussion. In the meantime, Hamas seems to be able to claim it got more out of Israel than Fatah ever did. Prove them wrong.

Hamas can claim whatever they want but certainly they're not getting more than the Fatah who has international support.
I explained before why I am not in favor of a Palestinian state as long as terrorists are running the show there:

We know that Hamas will not stop its efforts to harm Israel in every possible way. This organization is built on terror. They do not recognize Israel's right for a state under any circumstance.
Today they are firing rockets at us. What do we do? It depends. We either sit quietly like we've done many times before without retaliation or we kick their butts. How do we kick it? we enter those territories and make arrests of Hamas leaders, we look for hidden weapons and so on. Imagine what will happen if we give them a state. They will not stop firing at Israel since they don't recognize Israel as legitimate. So how will Israel retaliate? we will not be able to go into those territories since we'll be like Iraq in Kuweit. We can bomb them back but rest assure the international community will be right there to condemn us for being a powerful country and bombing the small, new state of Palestine who are just having growing pains. We will be a country which is starting a war with its neighboring country.
Out of the two bad options, It has been decided that the first is preferable.

 

[a_unique_person]

Hamas can claim whatever they want but certainly they're not getting more than the Fatah who has international support.
I explained before why I am not in favor of a Palestinian state as long as terrorists are running the show there:

Hamas only runs Gaza, at present. The longer this goes on, the more possible it is going to be that it runs the West Bank, too. Why not declare, this is what you can have, if we have peace? At present, as the Jerusalem thread shows, the expansion hasn't halted. And as Haaretz has found out, the expansion has been funded and encouraged for years from the top. It's not just a few nutters sleeping out in shacks. Every day that process goes on, Abbas looks more and more like a powerless puppet of Israel and the US.

Israel has painted itself into a corner, and the policy of expanding settlements seems to indicate it doesn't care.

It's no longer a matter of what's the best way to end this 'nightmare'. It's a matter of what's the least painful way out. All things come to an end, and when this is over, I bet a lot of people will be wondering why couldn't it have ended long ago.

The winograd report http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/949384.html seems to indicate to me a lot of Israeli's would like it to be over.

 

[webfusion]

Hey, in which region do you Israelis live btw?

While I maintain a permanent residence in Ramat Gan, I'm currently living in the Washington DC area, working with a major US high-tech corporation, on assignment for my Israeli aerospace employer.


My home city ---

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