New Age religions don't make you happy

[quarky]

That would be true if that was how QM came about. That's not the case, however - QM came about precisely because experimental data required it to. The beginnings of QM were not in 'speculation and philosophy' - they were in experiments and scientific rigour.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I'll try to dig up some examples.

 

[Jimbo07]

Quantum mechanics is only recently emerging from the mystical into the rational.

and

"...experiments and scientific rigour."

I'm not sure I agree with that. I'll try to dig up some examples.

If you're going to try to prove that there is a clear historical progression from the mystical to the quantum mechanical, but not a clear historical progression from existant physics, you're going to have a difficult time.

from Wikipedia's entry

The history of quantum mechanics began essentially with the 1838 discovery of cathode rays by Michael Faraday, the 1859 statement of the black body radiation problem by Gustav Kirchhoff, the 1877 suggestion by Ludwig Boltzmann that the energy states of a physical system could be discrete, and the 1900 quantum hypothesis by Max Planck that any energy is radiated and absorbed in quantities divisible by discrete ‘energy elements’ ε such that each of these energy elements is proportional to the frequency ν with which they each individually radiate energy, as defined by the following formula:

ε = h v

where h is Planck's Action Constant. Although Planck insisted that this was simply an aspect of the absorption and radiation of energy and had nothing to do with the physical reality of the energy itself, in 1905, to explain the photoelectric effect (1839), i.e. that shining light on certain materials can function to eject electrons from the material, Albert Einstein postulated, as based on Planck’s quantum hypothesis, that light itself consists of individual quanta, which later came to be called photons (1926). From Einstein's simple postulation was borne a flurry of debating, theorizing and testing, and thus, the entire field of quantum physics.

 

[thoth108]

You work with energy? Good!

Please raise the temperature of this bottle of water with 1C.

I've never tried with water, but anytime I give a healing massage to someone they comment on the feeling they get from my touch - heat, tingly, strange muscle spasms in the area.

You can start a new thread. Start by explaining why you decided to drop your demand of keeping what you will explain secret.

I've debating whether I'm bound by any laws to not tell you what I know. Most magickal orders demand that we keep the true nature of our expertise out of the hands of the general public, but so many magick users these days are just openly talking about it on the internet; I figured what the hell.

You have to understand that just because some people "explain" something in "many" books doesn't make it "fact".

I do understand that. What strikes me as curious is how people can deny the many eye-witness accounts that are available in every language, from every time period, that all share the same common elements. I'm into the history of magick, and have read more than most people have on the subject. Comparing what shamans say today, with what the ancient writers wrote on the subject yields too many coincidences to be farce. This discussion would require a lot of siting of references, but it could make for an interesting thread.

And I'll predict right now that you will come back and say that you couldn't.

Didn't try it yet.

You are talking about meditation now? Or something that goes beyond that?

The entire magickal ritual is a form of meditation. You are using the energy patterns created in your brain to effect the energy around you. Concentration is another word for it. You get what you think about, and the "harder" you think, the better the outcome.

Can you use this 6th sense to determine if the grey squares in the illusion I linked to are the same color or not?

I didn't need my sixth sense to do it. I used my eyes. By telling my brain to not filter the information coming in I was able to perceive the colors as they are; the illusion works because your brain makes some assumptions about the shadow, and the shade of the blocks surrounding it/beneath it. The same technique I use to see spirits and energy is the same technique I used to see the blocks as they actually are. Thanks for the illusion, it was an interesting test of my senses!

But that's not experiences of the future that came true. That's just you fantasizing about the good life.

Have you had any experiences of the future that came true?

Yes. My relationship is in turmoil at this moment, and I use my sixth sense to judge things all the time to determine what course of action will lead me, and those around me, to the ideal future. These are personal experiences, though, and you're looking for something else. I'm going to start looking into politics for you - becuase that's something we can all observe. Give me a few days and I'll start making predictions.

Why is going back in the past and seeing things from a different perspective supernatural and not just your fantasy at work?

Can you change the camera angle in your memories? Better yet, can you go back and experience the entire event from the perspective of another person, complete with the feeling of their emotions, and access to their memories as well? This is a shamanic technique that is written of all over the internet, and one of the first that students of shamanism learn. Go to a forum on shamanism and read around, you'll find there are many others just like me.

Does this mean that sentient beings will experience the same rock, always?

No. We see what we want to see; which is why I can see magickal energy, and you can not. If you want to see magick, then you have to examine your mind and find out how to really want to see magick. That is at the heart of what I'm telling you. Your reality is an illusion created by several factors, one of which being your belief system.

Why is that a "fact"?

My accumulation of knowledge about this reality is different from yours. From where I am, it's a fact; from where you are, it's a woo-theory. Just keep it in mind as we talk, because it's something that effects the outcomes of what we're discussing.

Wait a moment. If there are as many time lines as there are "sentient" beings, then Sylvia's predictions will always be right.

Sylivia is hasty, and in my opinion trusts her spirit guide a little too much. No mortal can accurately and unerringly predict the future to the degree that she claims to, and I wish she would stop proclaiming that she can because she knows that she can not. She doesn't have the energy to do that, otherwise she wouldn't be here in this mortal shell.

Do I have to be present to kill your magick? Can I doubt from afar, even in another time? Do I have to doubt your specific magick when you do it?

You can doubt all you want from afar, but you don't really know me so your projections are going to find their target. Yes, being present is the biggest part of it - it intermingles my energy with yours, and you're projecting "doubt." You don't have to doubt anything specific, you just have to think concretely that I'm not going to be able to do it.

But I can't see what you saw, can I? We each live in different time lines, don't we?

What you see is more like what you want to see; what I see when I'm doing using my "sight" is true reality. If you and I are in a room with a ghost, then I can see it because it's there. If you learned to see true-reality as well, then you would see it as well. The illusion-of-life fades as you learn to see what's really going on around you.

Yes, they are. But I don't believe that you merely used this supernatural power of yours. Are you willing to undergo a scientific test?

As long as I don't have to leave the comfort of my lazy-boy to do it. The test was interesting, because it gave me a way to test my own abilities without needing a spirit around, or some loose energy to view - like I said, the same technique I use for seeing spirits I used to determine the true appearance of the colors/shades in your illusion. Are we talking something like a color-blind test?

I am tired of superstitious people telling me to "Read The Book" if I want to learn "The Truth". I get that all the time, so why is Your Book better than all the others?

It was written by someone who achieved, not someone who read a book and repeated what they read without actually learning it. Crowley is someone who achieved; most of the paper back books in stores today are written by fakes.

We want you to read the books because all of this discussion only scratches the surface. You'll find once you begin to read a real book on magick that things start to add up, and it isn't all a fairy tale. If you don't want to research, that's fine; you're at the 1st grade level, and I'm at the college level, there's going to be a lot of explaining on my part of the elementary aspects of it all.

We do get people like you telling us about Their Truth. They don't stay when they find out that skeptics don't accept to be told The Truth. We want to see evidence.

I understand. You can see the evidence you're looking for at any time by using the shamanic techniques for seeing energy. That's the quickest way to test it for yourself, point blank. It takes discipline and meditation, and a bit of time.

I can hardly contain my anticipation.

You didn't respond to these.

Take my word about what I'm telling you I can do. I'm not exagerrating my abilities. Trying the meditation may require some blind-faith on your part, but it could be worth it. Doing it for yourself would answer your questions directly. This meditation about the latte is the same way I started, and it's the same one I use to test my abilities all the time - asking the universe to provide me with some random, asinine thing that no one knows I want, and then waiting to see how long before I receive it.

And you completely rule it out?

In the situations that I speak of, I believe it has been ruled out accordingly.

When you come here, telling us about your supernatural powers and how we can achieve them as well, then you are looking to convince us.

I'm also looking to teach you about how these things work. Many of you skeptics expect Harry Potter to walk in the door, wave his wand, and glowing energy to change someone into a parrot. That's not going to happen any time soon (for a variety of reasons). Part of my convincing you is to get you to look for yourself, to try for yourself, and to experience the results of your own experimentation. I do not claim to do anything that anyone of you couldn't do if you tried. I'm trying to convince you all of your own powers.

When I ask you "who", I want names.

Like I said, anyone in a higher dimension. You wouldn't know their names even if I told you; and their names wouldn't look like names to you. They're not human anymore, they've graduated beyond that.

You didn't, then. You just jumped to the conclusion that you weren't able to move things with your mind, and started to work "bigger".

Moving things with your mind is something known as an iddhi. They're to be avoided on the path that I follow, so I stopped thinking about it a long time ago. I work with human energy for the most part, and don't consider it a necessary part of my development to push things around with my mind.

Then, it's about you proving these powers to others.

My path is my own.

I'd rather like to test your abilities.

I'd rather you give it a shot, and test your own abilities. That's the quickest way to get what it is you're really after.

 

[thoth108]

What the bleep do we know.

To me, the sum total thingy; the universe(s) is a supernatural magicky effect; all the rest is science.

I was thinking of David Bohm and Krishnamurti. Quantum mechanics is only recently emerging from the mystical into the rational.

You'll find them quite hostile to those ideas of QM and woo beginning to blur together, even though that's what's happening right now. As we approach 2012 we're merging the two, and soon science and God will see one another as clear as day. Read some Daniel Pinchbeck, Quarky. He explains how the Mayans saw this coming.

Have you ever read Meher Baba?

 

[thoth108]

I'd have to agree with Thoth that we know very little about the nature of reality and its connection to thought and expectation. No doubt, we're in for some surprises, no matter how rational and intelligent we are.
I have sat in silence until my inner voice stopped generating thought.
The results were quite profound. I usually don't talk about it.

You're one inch away from enlightenment at that point my friend, keep going until your body feels like it's going to explode. What happens next will change your world forever. Please share with us what you experienced, and how you got there. Many of these people could use that kind of meditation!

Everything we do begins as thought. Its hard to dodge that.

Therein is the first lesson of magick; EVERYTHING begins with thought - which is the lightest, most easily manipulated form of energy. Now focus the thought, and supply it with enough of your own energy, and you can manifest it into reality without any physical intervention. Something first exists on the intellectual plane of exisitence, then it solidifies in the material plane of exisitence. Magick 101.

 

[Lithrael]

What strikes me as curious is how people can deny the many eye-witness accounts that are available in every language, from every time period, that all share the same common elements.

We generally figure that's got more to do with everybody having damn near the same brainmeats to work from. Like the idea that many NDEs are similar because of similar processes going on in a nearly-crapping-out brain, rather than because anyone is seeing a universal truth.

I appreciate the low-nonsense posts, by the way. You're being very upfront, which is a breath of fresh air around here, where Mysterious Ways are concerned. Thank you.

 

[CFLarsen]

I've never tried with water, but anytime I give a healing massage to someone they comment on the feeling they get from my touch - heat, tingly, strange muscle spasms in the area.

An old suggestive trick. Don't think you have paranormal powers because of that.

I've debating whether I'm bound by any laws to not tell you what I know. Most magickal orders demand that we keep the true nature of our expertise out of the hands of the general public, but so many magick users these days are just openly talking about it on the internet; I figured what the hell.

"Bound by law"? What are they going to do, throw you in jail? Sacrifice you at the next full moon?

I do understand that. What strikes me as curious is how people can deny the many eye-witness accounts that are available in every language, from every time period, that all share the same common elements. I'm into the history of magick, and have read more than most people have on the subject. Comparing what shamans say today, with what the ancient writers wrote on the subject yields too many coincidences to be farce. This discussion would require a lot of siting of references, but it could make for an interesting thread.

Can you deny the many eye-witness accounts of alien abductions? Of fairies? Goblins? Imps?

Didn't try it yet.

When will you try it?

The entire magickal ritual is a form of meditation. You are using the energy patterns created in your brain to effect the energy around you. Concentration is another word for it. You get what you think about, and the "harder" you think, the better the outcome.

Is that a round-about way of saying that you can't influence the material world with your magick?

I didn't need my sixth sense to do it. I used my eyes. By telling my brain to not filter the information coming in I was able to perceive the colors as they are; the illusion works because your brain makes some assumptions about the shadow, and the shade of the blocks surrounding it/beneath it. The same technique I use to see spirits and energy is the same technique I used to see the blocks as they actually are. Thanks for the illusion, it was an interesting test of my senses!

What you claimed to be able to do is testable.

Yes. My relationship is in turmoil at this moment, and I use my sixth sense to judge things all the time to determine what course of action will lead me, and those around me, to the ideal future. These are personal experiences, though, and you're looking for something else. I'm going to start looking into politics for you - becuase that's something we can all observe. Give me a few days and I'll start making predictions.

Excellent!

Can you change the camera angle in your memories? Better yet, can you go back and experience the entire event from the perspective of another person, complete with the feeling of their emotions, and access to their memories as well? This is a shamanic technique that is written of all over the internet, and one of the first that students of shamanism learn. Go to a forum on shamanism and read around, you'll find there are many others just like me.

You have completely misunderstood what memory is. It isn't a video recorder you can rewind at leisure and just play over, again and again.

No. We see what we want to see; which is why I can see magickal energy, and you can not. If you want to see magick, then you have to examine your mind and find out how to really want to see magick. That is at the heart of what I'm telling you. Your reality is an illusion created by several factors, one of which being your belief system.

But that means that you, so skilled in magick, will see the same things as another, equally skilled in magick?

My accumulation of knowledge about this reality is different from yours. From where I am, it's a fact; from where you are, it's a woo-theory. Just keep it in mind as we talk, because it's something that effects the outcomes of what we're discussing.

Your perception does not constitute fact, even if you claim to be so much more enlightened than me.

Sylivia is hasty, and in my opinion trusts her spirit guide a little too much. No mortal can accurately and unerringly predict the future to the degree that she claims to, and I wish she would stop proclaiming that she can because she knows that she can not. She doesn't have the energy to do that, otherwise she wouldn't be here in this mortal shell.

Now you are imposing your time line on hers. You are saying that there are not as many time lines as there are sentient beings. Your time line trumps hers.

You can doubt all you want from afar, but you don't really know me so your projections are going to find their target. Yes, being present is the biggest part of it - it intermingles my energy with yours, and you're projecting "doubt." You don't have to doubt anything specific, you just have to think concretely that I'm not going to be able to do it.

That means you can detect if there is a skeptic in the room. Another way to test your abilities.

What you see is more like what you want to see; what I see when I'm doing using my "sight" is true reality. If you and I are in a room with a ghost, then I can see it because it's there. If you learned to see true-reality as well, then you would see it as well. The illusion-of-life fades as you learn to see what's really going on around you.

Oh, you can see ghosts, too?

As long as I don't have to leave the comfort of my lazy-boy to do it. The test was interesting, because it gave me a way to test my own abilities without needing a spirit around, or some loose energy to view - like I said, the same technique I use for seeing spirits I used to determine the true appearance of the colors/shades in your illusion. Are we talking something like a color-blind test?

We are talking about you being tested for your claimed abilities.

Since you can determine if two grey areas are the same grey or not, I'm afraid you will have to get off your butt and move it into an environment where you can't cheat.

Are you willing to do that?

It was written by someone who achieved, not someone who read a book and repeated what they read without actually learning it. Crowley is someone who achieved; most of the paper back books in stores today are written by fakes.

But they all say that, those who claim to have read THE BOOK that they want everyone else to read.

So why should I read yours?

We want you to read the books because all of this discussion only scratches the surface. You'll find once you begin to read a real book on magick that things start to add up, and it isn't all a fairy tale. If you don't want to research, that's fine; you're at the 1st grade level, and I'm at the college level, there's going to be a lot of explaining on my part of the elementary aspects of it all.

What makes you think I haven't done research?

I understand. You can see the evidence you're looking for at any time by using the shamanic techniques for seeing energy. That's the quickest way to test it for yourself, point blank. It takes discipline and meditation, and a bit of time.

Why isn't it quicker that you show me what you can do?

Take my word about what I'm telling you I can do. I'm not exagerrating my abilities. Trying the meditation may require some blind-faith on your part, but it could be worth it. Doing it for yourself would answer your questions directly. This meditation about the latte is the same way I started, and it's the same one I use to test my abilities all the time - asking the universe to provide me with some random, asinine thing that no one knows I want, and then waiting to see how long before I receive it.

No, I don't want to take your word. I want to see evidence. Something that doesn't have natural explanations.

Isn't that clear to you by now? Have I in any way been vague about this?

In the situations that I speak of, I believe it has been ruled out accordingly.

And why do you believe that?

I'm also looking to teach you about how these things work. Many of you skeptics expect Harry Potter to walk in the door, wave his wand, and glowing energy to change someone into a parrot. That's not going to happen any time soon (for a variety of reasons). Part of my convincing you is to get you to look for yourself, to try for yourself, and to experience the results of your own experimentation. I do not claim to do anything that anyone of you couldn't do if you tried. I'm trying to convince you all of your own powers.

Either you can do it or you can't. It doesn't depend on other people believing it, or having experienced it themselves, or even having read about it.

Either you can do it or you can't. It's that simple.

Like I said, anyone in a higher dimension. You wouldn't know their names even if I told you; and their names wouldn't look like names to you. They're not human anymore, they've graduated beyond that.

Ah, so noone living.

Did they achieve this enlightenment before or after they died?

Moving things with your mind is something known as an iddhi. They're to be avoided on the path that I follow, so I stopped thinking about it a long time ago. I work with human energy for the most part, and don't consider it a necessary part of my development to push things around with my mind.

How convenient.

My path is my own.

And mine is to find evidence of your claims.

I'd rather you give it a shot, and test your own abilities. That's the quickest way to get what it is you're really after.

I am not the one claiming paranormal abilities. You are.

Therein is the first lesson of magick; EVERYTHING begins with thought - which is the lightest, most easily manipulated form of energy. Now focus the thought, and supply it with enough of your own energy, and you can manifest it into reality without any physical intervention. Something first exists on the intellectual plane of exisitence, then it solidifies in the material plane of exisitence. Magick 101.

"Everything"? The galaxies began because someone sentient thought of them?

 

[Mobyseven]

Thoth: Why will you not take the MDC?

 

[thoth108]

Karma.

Thoth: Why will you not take the MDC?

"Winning" that money by performing tricks, or iddhis, will incur bad karma on my part. To put it simply, it's against my religious beliefs.

Whatever I do has to be for the greatest good of everyone concerned, or conected to the event.

 

[thoth108]

An old suggestive trick. Don't think you have paranormal powers because of that.

During a normal massage I will begin working directly with the person's energy; I don't tell them I'm doing it, and often times I don't even make physical contact. Their eyes are closed, so they can't see what I'm doing. There is no suggestion involved. This I can perform at any time, on anyone. The last time I did it the person nearly passed out from the shift in their energy.

"Bound by law"? What are they going to do, throw you in jail? Sacrifice you at the next full moon?

I'm not going to speculate. I'm sure that it's not a jail sentence though.

Can you deny the many eye-witness accounts of alien abductions? Of fairies? Goblins? Imps?

Alien abductions are just silly to me, but I don't know much about them. Fairies, goblins, & imps are beings from another plane of exisitence; the people who see them have temporarilyt shifted their perception to allow them to see into that other plane. This is to account for the random accounts throughout history of these beings.

When will you try it?

Time allowing, I need to fast, then meditate, gather energy, ask permission to use my powers in such a shallow way, and then practice in solitude. I have a job and a wife which take priority of iddhis. If I have success in private, I will video tape the event and post it.

Is that a round-about way of saying that you can't influence the material world with your magick?

Absolutely not. I'm trying teach you how it works.

What you claimed to be able to do is testable.

More tests of that nature are welcome.

Excellent!

I haven't started yet, so for the sake of placing my current predictions in the public record: I think that Obama will be V.P., and Hillary will be President. This is based soley on intellectual thinking, and not psychic prediction. I will post my psychic predictions when I recieve them.

You have completely misunderstood what memory is. It isn't a video recorder you can rewind at leisure and just play over, again and again.

I'm not talking about memory, that's what you're calling it. I'm talking about stalking, which is the shamanic term for: pushing your energy(soul) beyond it's current position in space/time (now) into another point in space/time (the past) and working with the energy of that particular place. Memory isn't a part of it; it's your soul travelling through space and time while you meditate. Does that clear this up?

But that means that you, so skilled in magick, will see the same things as another, equally skilled in magick?

Yes, and I have shared experiences with people. The shamanic world is full of such accounts of people all seeing the same thing.

Your perception does not constitute fact, even if you claim to be so much more enlightened than me.

Neither does yours, that's what I'm trying to tell you. Life is an illusion that behaves as you expect it to.

Now you are imposing your time line on hers. You are saying that there are not as many time lines as there are sentient beings. Your time line trumps hers.

When the timeline approaches the here-and-now point then it narrows down to one(more or less one). Whoever is president will be president in all of our timelines, and that timeline will be locked into the collective-consciousness of everyone. Sylivia's predictions look at the current intent of people NOW - i.e. what we all wish would happen in the future; which is why she is often mistaken. I'm going to use another technique to reach my predictions.

That means you can detect if there is a skeptic in the room. Another way to test your abilities.

Yes. If I am inhibited from doing something I know that I can do, and someone else is observing me, then I can tell that it is their doubt projected at me.

Oh, you can see ghosts, too?

Ghosts is a vague term that means "dead people" to most of us. I don't know what the beings of light are. My shaman tells me that some of them used to be human, but many of them were never human. The other dimensions are populated with thier own beings.

We are talking about you being tested for your claimed abilities.

Since you can determine if two grey areas are the same grey or not, I'm afraid you will have to get off your butt and move it into an environment where you can't cheat.

Are you willing to do that?

I don't cheat. I'm engaging in an honest discussion with you about this. If you mean travel to a lab somewhere, then I'd have to think about it. Bear in mind though that I'm not so much trying to prove that I can do it, I'm trying to get you all to do it for yourself.

But they all say that, those who claim to have read THE BOOK that they want everyone else to read.

Granted. I'm going to start a new thread, and include references to books that can be trusted for genuine instruction. Give me time to do my research and prepare. You can start with Aleister Crowley, but don't get too hung up in him - he's a bit weird; and I don't like the Golden Dawn's secretive nature.

So why should I read yours?

I've done my homework.

What makes you think I haven't done research?

The questions you ask.

Why isn't it quicker that you show me what you can do?

If you want proof that thoughts can produce manifestations in the material world, then all you have to do is try. Honest effort will yield a positive result. If you knew me, and I showed you anything, you would still doubt it and scrutinize it. If you did it yourself, you would have all that you need to understand the process. Besides, there's more people reading this than just you and I. I hope that many, many people give it a shot.

No, I don't want to take your word. I want to see evidence. Something that doesn't have natural explanations.[/qoote] Well, everything is going to have a "natural" explanation, it's just the definition of "natural" that is going to change for you >>> that's what I'm trying to tell you when I say, "Magick is not Magick, it's SCIENCE."

Isn't that clear to you by now? Have I in any way been vague about this?

No, you haven't. You want me, in a lab, with you watching closely as I perform an iddhi for you. Where we are missing each other is: even if I show you, again and again, you may still not get it (this is documented in many teacher/adept situations in shamanism). The best way to bring you to the understanding that you're asking for is to give you the basic tools, and send you off without your training wheels to do it for yourself. How's that latte meditation coming?

And why do you believe that?

With regards to seeing ghosts, my eye sight is impeccable. I check the room thoroughly for any possible light leaks that might cause interference. If someone else is present, I verify with them. Last, and most importantly, it just doesn't look like anything EXCEPT a being of light passing by. It's unmistakeable.

Either you can do it or you can't. It doesn't depend on other people believing it, or having experienced it themselves, or even having read about it.

Either you can do it or you can't. It's that simple.

It does depend on the mental-projections of those in the room with me. YOUR ASSUREDNESS OF MAGICK BEING A FALLACY IS BEING PROJECTED THE SAME AS MY MAGICK; YOUR CASTING A SPELL WITH YOUR DOUBT, and since you are SO SURE of yourself you power of projection is a powerful block to my power - so I must overcome YOUR PROJECTION as well as my own doubts. Magick 101 again.

Ah, so noone living.

Those that have achieved this level of power do not have any reason to come to you and say, "look what I can do!" They are all around you, and say nothing to anyone about their abilities.

Did they achieve this enlightenment before or after they died?

During their last few lives as human beings, yes.

How convenient.

This is why I want you to read some things. You don't understand how it works, or why I do the things that I do.

And mine is to find evidence of your claims.

Your path is something larger than that. You're obviously searching for something on the path of magick, or you would be indifferent to this conversation - and you're not indifferent, you're interested.

I am not the one claiming paranormal abilities. You are.

I'm also claiming that you can do it as well, doesn't that interest you? I'm not like other psychics who say, "I can do this," or, "I was born with a gift." I'm telling you how you can awaken the latent power within you. I'm telling you that I have awakened the latent power within me. And I'm also stressing that it doesn't matter what I show you, you can always *believe* that there is another explanation for it >>> that's why I want you to do it for yourself, because then you will have direct experience of it within your own world-view; then there can be no other explanation in your mind and you will reach the first epiphany on the path of the adept >>> the realization that the world does not work the way you have been taught to believe it.

"Everything"? The galaxies began because someone sentient thought of them?

Yes. Read Meher Baba if you want an in depth discussion of the topic. The conversation will get religious, and I'm not interested in debating God with anyone. Everything is thought first, physical manifestation afterwards. Everything. Period. That's my OPINION, based upon the knowledge that I have received from more credible sources than the pondering minds of human scientists, and I'm sticking to it. This would be a topic for another thread; something like, "Theosophy and Creationism." Shall we begin that as well?

 

[Mobyseven]

"Winning" that money by performing tricks, or iddhis, will incur bad karma on my part. To put it simply, it's against my religious beliefs.

Whatever I do has to be for the greatest good of everyone concerned, or conected to the event.

But I've already explained to you how it would be for the greatest good!

You come along and win the MDC. Who cares about the money? Donate the money to the poor, or hell, give it all back to the JREF! The money is immaterial. What you will have demonstrated, however, is that what you are telling us about how it is you have become so happy is the truth! By doing that, you will have opened up a whole new level of understanding for millions of people, and kick-started the process of a large number of people learning how to live well and be happy!

The impact of you winning the MDC would be huge, and would have a profound positive impact on all involved! If you don't want the money because you are worried about your karma, then don't apply for the MDC - instead, contact the JREF and simply organise for a demonstration to take place, so that you can show us all the truth without having to worry about a stain of bad karma.

Really, there's no reason not to do it!

 

[thoth108]

But I've already explained to you how it would be for the greatest good!

You come along and win the MDC. Who cares about the money? Donate the money to the poor, or hell, give it all back to the JREF! The money is immaterial. What you will have demonstrated, however, is that what you are telling us about how it is you have become so happy is the truth! By doing that, you will have opened up a whole new level of understanding for millions of people, and kick-started the process of a large number of people learning how to live well and be happy!

The impact of you winning the MDC would be huge, and would have a profound positive impact on all involved! If you don't want the money because you are worried about your karma, then don't apply for the MDC - instead, contact the JREF and simply organise for a demonstration to take place, so that you can show us all the truth without having to worry about a stain of bad karma.

Really, there's no reason not to do it!

The "Greater Good" would be for you all to learn to do it for yourself, and not because you saw someone else do it first. From my perspective it's like this:

Those of you who can not perform the simple "latte meditation," and achieve results are stuck in doubt. Your mind can not project the positive energy outward towards it's goal because you have reasoned that such a thing is impossible; nothing will change that except your own direct experience with a successful attempt on your part. This must change first, then you can see the results that I have to show you. (I had to go through the same ordeal).

If I were to perform the act in front of you, or move something with my mind, then I would have to combat your doubt ANYWAYS >>> I would have to convince you in that moment that such a thing is possible, before you would even register the result as being valid. (this goes back to life being an illusion, and how we only see what we want to see). If you all try the meditation ernestly then you will see success, and from that point I can show you what you are asking, because you will have removed an obstacle in your mind that prevents me from performing any sort of magick in front of you. Removing that obstacle is the Greater Good. Removing that obstacle is also step one. I am preparing you to see what you are asking me to show you.

As defensive, and weird as all of this sounds it is the truth about how magick works. Unless your mind is trained to accept what it is about to see, you will register it as something else. Yes, what I am saying is: EVEN IF I DID MOVE SOMETHING WITH MY MIND IN FRONT OF YOU, YOU WOULD NOT SEE IT. This is why so few people these days achieve any results with magick.

My first step is to remove the doubt from some of your minds, my next step will be to show you all something that you are not yet ready to comprehend.

As for the money, I couldn't accept it. I also could not accept the recognition for what I did. I would have to remain anonymous, and not be made famous in anyway for such an act. Karma is a tricky thing. I'm considering the offer, and I'll get back to you on whether or not I'll apply.

 

[Mobyseven]

Goodo. I certainly hope you take this opportunity to directly improve the lives of thousands (and indirectly possibly change the world as we know it). Would be a shame not to.

 

[Jimbo07]

The "Greater Good" would be for you all to learn to do it for yourself, and not because you saw someone else do it first.

NO.

First, explain to me, in detail, why magick has this special rule, when nothing else does. What is the mechanism by which magick enforces this rule?

If you want to study something, go and see what can be done before taking your first lesson!

Why and how does magick follow this special rule?

 

[CFLarsen]

During a normal massage I will begin working directly with the person's energy; I don't tell them I'm doing it, and often times I don't even make physical contact. Their eyes are closed, so they can't see what I'm doing. There is no suggestion involved. This I can perform at any time, on anyone.

But people anticipate that something is about to happen. They will interpret any change, or imagine that something is happening.

Do you acknowledge that this can happen?

The last time I did it the person nearly passed out from the shift in their energy.

And this didn't cause you to stop and consider what it is you are doing??

I'm not going to speculate. I'm sure that it's not a jail sentence though.

Come, now: What is it that makes you so afraid of revealing these things? If we learned these things, should we be as afraid as you are?

Alien abductions are just silly to me, but I don't know much about them.

That may be so. But do you acknowledge that there are many, many accounts of alien abductions?

Fairies, goblins, & imps are beings from another plane of exisitence; the people who see them have temporarilyt shifted their perception to allow them to see into that other plane. This is to account for the random accounts throughout history of these beings.

How do you know this? How can you just declare that you know what really happened to them?

Time allowing, I need to fast, then meditate, gather energy, ask permission to use my powers in such a shallow way, and then practice in solitude. I have a job and a wife which take priority of iddhis. If I have success in private, I will video tape the event and post it.

I didn't ask what it would take. I asked when you will try it. When, exactly?

Absolutely not. I'm trying teach you how it works.

You don't need to teach me. You just need to show me.

More tests of that nature are welcome.

Does that mean that you accept being tested?

I haven't started yet, so for the sake of placing my current predictions in the public record: I think that Obama will be V.P., and Hillary will be President. This is based soley on intellectual thinking, and not psychic prediction. I will post my psychic predictions when I recieve them.

If it is not based on your psychic abilities, then it has no bearing on this discussion.

I'm not talking about memory, that's what you're calling it. I'm talking about stalking, which is the shamanic term for: pushing your energy(soul) beyond it's current position in space/time (now) into another point in space/time (the past) and working with the energy of that particular place. Memory isn't a part of it; it's your soul travelling through space and time while you meditate. Does that clear this up?

You were talking about memory:

Can you change the camera angle in your memories? Better yet, can you go back and experience the entire event from the perspective of another person, complete with the feeling of their emotions, and access to their memories as well? This is a shamanic technique that is written of all over the internet, and one of the first that students of shamanism learn. Go to a forum on shamanism and read around, you'll find there are many others just like me.

How is this different from accessing the memories of another person?

Yes, and I have shared experiences with people. The shamanic world is full of such accounts of people all seeing the same thing.

That is testable. Do you agree to such a test?

Neither does yours, that's what I'm trying to tell you.

If my perception is backed by evidence, then it does.

Life is an illusion that behaves as you expect it to.

If I expect life to give me a Mercedes, I get one?

When the timeline approaches the here-and-now point then it narrows down to one(more or less one). Whoever is president will be president in all of our timelines, and that timeline will be locked into the collective-consciousness of everyone. Sylivia's predictions look at the current intent of people NOW - i.e. what we all wish would happen in the future; which is why she is often mistaken. I'm going to use another technique to reach my predictions.

Now you are contradicting yourself.

Yes. If I am inhibited from doing something I know that I can do, and someone else is observing me, then I can tell that it is their doubt projected at me.

Excellent. Will you be tested for this, also?

Ghosts is a vague term that means "dead people" to most of us. I don't know what the beings of light are. My shaman tells me that some of them used to be human, but many of them were never human. The other dimensions are populated with thier own beings.

You were crystal clear about being able to see a ghost:

If you and I are in a room with a ghost, then I can see it because it's there.

Don't contradict yourself. You will get caught.

I don't cheat. I'm engaging in an honest discussion with you about this. If you mean travel to a lab somewhere, then I'd have to think about it. Bear in mind though that I'm not so much trying to prove that I can do it, I'm trying to get you all to do it for yourself.

If you don't cheat, why would you have to think about being tested under controlled conditions?

Granted. I'm going to start a new thread, and include references to books that can be trusted for genuine instruction. Give me time to do my research and prepare. You can start with Aleister Crowley, but don't get too hung up in him - he's a bit weird; and I don't like the Golden Dawn's secretive nature.

Which magick masters have you read?

I've done my homework.

But they all say that, too. Why should I read your book?

The questions you ask.

Like what?

If you want proof that thoughts can produce manifestations in the material world, then all you have to do is try. Honest effort will yield a positive result. If you knew me, and I showed you anything, you would still doubt it and scrutinize it. If you did it yourself, you would have all that you need to understand the process. Besides, there's more people reading this than just you and I. I hope that many, many people give it a shot.

Of course I would scrutinize it! Why do you see that as a problem?

Well, everything is going to have a "natural" explanation, it's just the definition of "natural" that is going to change for you >>> that's what I'm trying to tell you when I say, "Magick is not Magick, it's SCIENCE."

Bull. Magick is not science. Don't try to prop up your claims by calling what you do "science".

No, you haven't. You want me, in a lab, with you watching closely as I perform an iddhi for you. Where we are missing each other is: even if I show you, again and again, you may still not get it (this is documented in many teacher/adept situations in shamanism). The best way to bring you to the understanding that you're asking for is to give you the basic tools, and send you off without your training wheels to do it for yourself. How's that latte meditation coming?

Don't give me this condescending "Oh, you wouldn't be able to see it anyway" crap. Don't you understand that, if you were able to do what you claim to be able to do, it would be evident? There would not be any need for interpretation, it would be clear as day.

You even admit it here:

With regards to seeing ghosts, my eye sight is impeccable. I check the room thoroughly for any possible light leaks that might cause interference. If someone else is present, I verify with them. Last, and most importantly, it just doesn't look like anything EXCEPT a being of light passing by. It's unmistakeable.

There you go! If it is unmistakeable, then you can do it under controlled conditions.

It does depend on the mental-projections of those in the room with me. YOUR ASSUREDNESS OF MAGICK BEING A FALLACY IS BEING PROJECTED THE SAME AS MY MAGICK; YOUR CASTING A SPELL WITH YOUR DOUBT, and since you are SO SURE of yourself you power of projection is a powerful block to my power - so I must overcome YOUR PROJECTION as well as my own doubts. Magick 101 again.

Nonsense. Either you can do it, or you can't.

Those that have achieved this level of power do not have any reason to come to you and say, "look what I can do!" They are all around you, and say nothing to anyone about their abilities.

Then how do you know they have these abilities??

During their last few lives as human beings, yes.

Ah, you believe in reincarnation, too.

Who were they? Names, please.

This is why I want you to read some things. You don't understand how it works, or why I do the things that I do.

I have read quite a bit, thank you very much. Now, I need to see it.

Your path is something larger than that. You're obviously searching for something on the path of magick, or you would be indifferent to this conversation - and you're not indifferent, you're interested.

Don't tell me what my path is.

I'm also claiming that you can do it as well, doesn't that interest you? I'm not like other psychics who say, "I can do this," or, "I was born with a gift." I'm telling you how you can awaken the latent power within you. I'm telling you that I have awakened the latent power within me. And I'm also stressing that it doesn't matter what I show you, you can always *believe* that there is another explanation for it >>> that's why I want you to do it for yourself, because then you will have direct experience of it within your own world-view; then there can be no other explanation in your mind and you will reach the first epiphany on the path of the adept >>> the realization that the world does not work the way you have been taught to believe it.

Show me first.

Surely, you can see why this is a reasonable demand? Before I engage in a lengthy education under your tutelage, you surely can show me that you can do what you claim to be able to do??

Yes. Read Meher Baba if you want an in depth discussion of the topic. The conversation will get religious, and I'm not interested in debating God with anyone.

Ah, so God is a sentient being?

Everything is thought first, physical manifestation afterwards. Everything. Period. That's my OPINION, based upon the knowledge that I have received from more credible sources than the pondering minds of human scientists, and I'm sticking to it. This would be a topic for another thread; something like, "Theosophy and Creationism." Shall we begin that as well?

I am not interested in your opinion. I am interested in those physical manifestations.

Show me.

Those of you who can not perform the simple "latte meditation," and achieve results are stuck in doubt. Your mind can not project the positive energy outward towards it's goal because you have reasoned that such a thing is impossible; nothing will change that except your own direct experience with a successful attempt on your part. This must change first, then you can see the results that I have to show you. (I had to go through the same ordeal).

If I were to perform the act in front of you, or move something with my mind, then I would have to combat your doubt ANYWAYS >>> I would have to convince you in that moment that such a thing is possible, before you would even register the result as being valid. (this goes back to life being an illusion, and how we only see what we want to see). If you all try the meditation ernestly then you will see success, and from that point I can show you what you are asking, because you will have removed an obstacle in your mind that prevents me from performing any sort of magick in front of you. Removing that obstacle is the Greater Good. Removing that obstacle is also step one. I am preparing you to see what you are asking me to show you.

As defensive, and weird as all of this sounds it is the truth about how magick works. Unless your mind is trained to accept what it is about to see, you will register it as something else. Yes, what I am saying is: EVEN IF I DID MOVE SOMETHING WITH MY MIND IN FRONT OF YOU, YOU WOULD NOT SEE IT. This is why so few people these days achieve any results with magick.

My first step is to remove the doubt from some of your minds, my next step will be to show you all something that you are not yet ready to comprehend.

Do you understand that what you are describing here is the perfect recipe for fraud?

"Suspend your rationality, and I shall show you wonders"

As for the money, I couldn't accept it. I also could not accept the recognition for what I did. I would have to remain anonymous, and not be made famous in anyway for such an act. Karma is a tricky thing. I'm considering the offer, and I'll get back to you on whether or not I'll apply.

Is it against your karma to feed 90,000 starving people with rice for one year?

 

[quarky]

superman had a full time job. (as a reporter; daily planet) he was frequently humiliated as Clark Kent. He spent a lot of energy disguising his secret identity.

A skeptic might wonder why Superman couldn't have more fun? If I was Superman, surely I wouldn't have to have a crappy full time job, right?

wrong.

we are stuck with the limits of our collective imaginations.
to stray very far from the collective consensus of the day, is to court insanity.

Clark Kent is that gesture. Clark can't fly.

(hopefully this will clear up matters a bit)

 

[Jimbo07]

superman had a full time job. (as a reporter; daily planet) he was frequently humiliated as Clark Kent. He spent a lot of energy disguising his secret identity.

A skeptic might wonder why Superman couldn't have more fun? If I was Superman, surely I wouldn't have to have a crappy full time job, right?

wrong.

we are stuck with the limits of our collective imaginations.
to stray very far from the collective consensus of the day, is to court insanity.

Clark Kent is that gesture. Clark can't fly.

(hopefully this will clear up matters a bit)

Even in the fiction, people could see Superman doing super stunts. There were clear photos of Superman. Superman's super abilities are established fact in that fictional universe.

Not so with magick-users "hiding in plain sight" in the real world...

ETA: I'd suggest that if you're using Superman/Clark Kent as an analogy to modern magick users, then you've missed both the point of evidence and the Superman stories. Clark Kent's life is meaningless in story-telling without the established fact of Superman. First we must establish the fact of magick-users...

 

[quarky]

yeah, sure.

once again, I defend something I don't believe in, as a scientist.

we need metaphor to think.
it comes from the past.

the internet has provided us with a new metaphor. invisable waves full of usefull data that we can share...that's the new metaphor; unthinkable 100 years ago.

even today, our limits are hung-up on the metaphorical past.
We must have adds or bills to enjoy the new power.
Always a catch. Always something to queer the deal.

We are drenched in the past.
Jesus was the superman 2000 years ago.
He could do anything, but got crucified, obstensibly, without ever getting layed.
What a drag.

When Superman emerged from the wreckage, he wasn't much better off.
Kryptonite needed to be invented to accomodate our limited expectation. If Superman didn't have this weekness, and the full-time crappy job, we never would have bought the comic books.

Jesus and Superman can only exist in the fog of doubt.
One must suspend rational thought to be saved by either.
Its part of the deal.

My willingness to accept this has afforded me the ability to turn wine into vinegar, which is a good start. My x-ray vision hasn't totally kicked in yet, but I can imagine what is hidden by some women's garments.

 

[Jimbo07]

Kryptonite needed to be invented to accomodate our limited expectation. If Superman didn't have this weekness, and the full-time crappy job, we never would have bought the comic books.

Fair enough, although I'd look at it another way. We enjoy stories of overcoming hardship. Both Superman and Jesus have that in common, as well. Having been afforded supernatural powers in the first place, they need supernatural foils (magic elements, the burden of our sins, you know...)

Jesus and Superman can only exist in the fog of doubt.

Except that it is easier to establish Superman as fact to the inhabitants of that universe. I understand that you're talking about the audience in this case, but that presents its own problem. Superman has been presented as real to the inhabitants in his universe and has been presented as fiction to us in this.

Some try to present Jesus as real, although it comes across as hard to distinguish from fiction, in this universe.

One must suspend rational thought to be saved by either.

Homer: "I'm not normally a praying man, but if you're up there, save me Superman!"

 

[Mobyseven]

superman had a full time job. (as a reporter; daily planet) he was frequently humiliated as Clark Kent. He spent a lot of energy disguising his secret identity.

A skeptic might wonder why Superman couldn't have more fun? If I was Superman, surely I wouldn't have to have a crappy full time job, right?

wrong.

we are stuck with the limits of our collective imaginations.
to stray very far from the collective consensus of the day, is to court insanity.

Clark Kent is that gesture. Clark can't fly.

(hopefully this will clear up matters a bit)

Well, we've cleared up that you don't know s*** about Superman...or indeed the concept of 'fiction'.