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Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

TF, missing some crucial info:

Yes.

10% of the power needs of gaza are supplied by lines from Egypt.
30% is locally generated (and at last report, the power plant is running at capacity, with diesel fuel that Israel trucked in, despite not being paid for it -- it should be recalled that the Palestinian Authority routinely fails to pay Israel millions of $$$ owed for fuel supplies. The European Union has been stepping-in and covering that debt.)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3413767,00.html
(note date on article)

Israel actually never disrupted the power grid during the current crisis. HAMAS purposely stopped their generators as a form of protest (despite their fuel depot still having diesel).



No. The Palestinian Authorty has open-market contracts with Paz and Dor Energy corporations. Nobody forces them to buy from Israeli sources, AFAIK. Do you have anything to back up your claim that Israel "says so" and requires the PA to sign contracts with Israeli firms, instead of say, Turkish or Jordanian or Lebanese or Egyptian suppliers? I would be curious to see what evidence you have of this coercion.

Good Idea, how will these alternate suppliers supply the fuel. How about by ship, would you allow that? Currently you control all access by sea, can people send cargo ships to Gaza? How about by truck...any way that can go in without being subject to Israeli blockades? By Air maybe? Can goods be flown into Gaza? Do you allow that?
 
So this prat wants to let you know that talking populism is just that but does not have a real holding in reality.
Now, why did we stay in those territories? Well I can think of an excellent reason, the same as was in Lebanon and the same as was with Sinai and Egypt: to get a security distance between Israel and its enemies. In lebanon it was to get distance from the Hizbolah Katyusha bomb firings at Israeli's northern cities, in Sinai it was to get a good distance from the Egyptian forces and with the territories we're talking about here the distance was from Jordan.
Couldn't you have thought about these legitimate reasons yourself?
Yes I could...I can think of many reasons for you to stay. Buffer zone being one of them. Who is the west bank currently buffering you against? Who is Gaza currently buffering you against?
 
If there's something in that map which contradicts what I said, then you'll have to point it out. What is the map supposed to show me?

You said ---"Israel is responsible for the Palestinians because Israel set things up so that the Palestinians depend on Israel for things like clean water, electricity and access to the rest of the world."


I am illustrating that Israel didn't 'set things up' for gaza to be isolated. Gaza just IS isolated by virtue of it's location.
Israel, time and again, has tried to help get the palestinians to stand on their own feet in gaza. If you want chapter and verse, I can provide it:
International Airport, deepwater port project, Internationally-monitored southern frontier crossing (with Egypt), PalTrade (agricultural consortium), EREZ industrial zone, assisting with installing modern electrical generation turbines (PEC), and the effort to work with the PWA. These are all typical examples of how Israel has attempted to help gaza along into the 21st century. http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXT...K:210058~piPK:210062~theSitePK:337302,00.html

  • Private operators were hard to attract due to the low water tariffs and high risk in investing in Gaza. At the same time (1995-96), the Palestinian authorities had just been empowered to manage their own water resources, and would be loath to agree to divestment. Additionally, the lack of information on the existing system would leave little basis for establishing the terms or expectations of the concession contract or lease. A performance-based management contract for a limited duration was found to be the most appropriate course of action. In 1996 the World Bank provided a US$25 million trust fund credit to the West Bank and Gaza to improve water supply and sanitation services in Gaza. The project was implemented by the Palestinian Water Authority (PWA).

Beyond all that, here's a story about gaza's offshore natural gas resources:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1196847391431&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
Israel was making various efforts to assist the palestinians in that endeavor (agreeing to contract for purchasing the output), but when HAMAS took over, these negotiations became problematic --- it is a violation of International Banking Regulations to provide direct financial support to HAMAS, and that's what paying for the gas would amount to.

The deal is currently "on hold" as British Gas Plc. refuses to take the high risk of proceeding.
How is this Israel's fault? The palestinians of gaza, yet again, have screwed themselves.
 
Good Idea, how will these alternate suppliers supply the fuel. How about by ship, would you allow that? Currently you control all access by sea, can people send cargo ships to Gaza? How about by truck...any way that can go in without being subject to Israeli blockades? By Air maybe? Can goods be flown into Gaza? Do you allow that?


T-F, I'm sure that gaza could have all the access it wants, but there's a slight problem with that -- and it has nothing to do with Israel. It's their own islamic fundamentalist radical terrorist government that has brought them nothing but pain and darkness. Until HAMAS is sidelined, they'll be stuck in the lousy position they put themselves in.

If you want to know why the palestinians of gaza have no deep water port, no air terminal at Dehaniya, no cargo-transfer facilities at Rafah, no PalTrade activity, no Gaza Marine gas pipeline, etc etc -- the answer is found by looking at International Banking Regulations. It is ILLEGAL to have financial dealings with HAMAS. Period.
How is that Israel's fault?

BTW, see: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3375202&postcount=163
 
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You said ---"Israel is responsible for the Palestinians because Israel set things up so that the Palestinians depend on Israel for things like clean water, electricity and access to the rest of the world."


I am illustrating that Israel didn't 'set things up' for gaza to be isolated. Gaza just IS isolated by virtue of it's location.

And you prove that by posting a map showing Gaza's coastline? How does a 'nation' with a coastline become isolated? Recently, it was by blockade. That's something you may try to justify, but it remains a case that Israel has had control of Gaza's borders for a very long time.

I appreciate the extra detail you've now supplied: the deepwater port, the airport, etc which all fell through. But it illustrates how these things depend on Israel's support and help. They are signs, at most, of Israel trying (unsuccessfully) to let go of its responsibility. They are not signs that Gaza was independent of Israel.

Israel collects some Palestinian taxes -- which, apparently, it has the authority to withhold.

And Israel is asking Egypt to 'restore order' to its border with Gaza. But, in this case, I don't think Israel is in control. The fence they built, and demanded remain, is down.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7211496.stm

Egypt has asked the Palestinian group Hamas to attend talks "promptly" on the crisis at Gaza's breached border.

[...] An attempt by Egyptian riot police to reseal the border on Saturday collapsed when Hamas fighters responded to water cannon and electric batons with gunfire.

Egypt cannot wage war against the Palestinians. Any attempt to close the border by force would be a bluff. And so Egypt has asked for talks with Hamas. I wonder how much of their pocket money Uncle Sam will withhold?

Egypt has been reluctant to talk to Hamas since June when the Islamist group seized control of Gaza, ousting the Palestinian Authority of President Mahmoud Abbas, the BBC's Heba Saleh reports from Cairo.

But now Cairo finds that there is no alternative to discussions with Hamas if it is to restore its control over the border, our Middle East analyst says.

"There will be an invitation to several Hamas leaders to come to Cairo promptly," said Foreign Minister Ahmad Ali Abu-al-Ghayt.
 
T-F, I'm sure that gaza could have all the access it wants, but there's a slight problem with that -- and it has nothing to do with Israel. It's their own islamic fundamentalist radical terrorist government that has brought them nothing but pain and darkness. Until HAMAS is sidelined, they'll be stuck in the lousy position they put themselves in.

If you want to know why the palestinians of gaza have no deep water port, no air terminal at Dehaniya, no cargo-transfer facilities at Rafah, no PalTrade activity, no Gaza Marine gas pipeline, etc etc -- the answer is found by looking at International Banking Regulations. It is ILLEGAL to have financial dealings with HAMAS. Period.
How is that Israel's fault?

BTW, see: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3375202&postcount=163
sigh...whats the point web. You constantly deny stuff then when it is specifically examined to stop denying it and say its the palestinians fault it happens.....Now you bring up something about it being Illegal?? So the contracts you suggest thay have (freely obtained) with Israeli companies are Illegal??

Is this some sort of Pea and shell debate method?
 
*snip*...Now you bring up something about (financial dealings with HAMAS) being Illegal?? So the contracts you suggest thay have (freely obtained) with Israeli companies are Illegal??

Is this some sort of Pea and shell debate method?


T-F, do you actually have any interest whatsoever with discovering the facts, before you post random gibberish?
In essence, it is the palestinians themselves who have constructed an elaborate "pea and shell" game so they can keep receiving aid, VAT tax money transfers, and EU payments for fuel contracts.

The Palestinian Authority (the legal representative government) is headed by President Abbas, and they are in de-jure control of the financial dealings with Israel. There is even a Palestine Investment Fund (an independent Corporation) which is used sometimes by Abbas to handle various transactions which keeps the money out of the hands of HAMAS.


The reason that the HAMAS cannot be directly involved in monetary transactions with many nations (including Israel) is that the USA has listed them as a terrorist organization and will impose banking sanctions on anyone who violates the laws (and that creates a situation whereby there are various International Banking Restrictions prohibiting banks from having anything to do with HAMAS directly).

So, HAMAS was reduced to smuggling in cash in suitcases over the border. That is why they had a huge problem getting their "pilgrims" to return to gaza last month, because it was known that millions of $$$ in cash was being carried by some of these people, and Israel asked the Egyptians to do a proper search of their luggage and parcels and confiscate the money. The palestinians rioted and rejected that process, knowing the money would be found. Ultimately, the Egyptians just relented and just let them all through free and clear.

And now, with the breach in the border, HAMAS is getting whatever they want across --- money, small arms, missiles, explosives, you name it. They even put up heavy cranes to lift over crates of Katyusha rockets, high-caliber machine guns, and mortars.

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

By the way, in talks with President Abbas today, the Israeli Prime Minsiter assured the palestinians that their humanitarian needs in gaza would be met, and there was a ruling by the Israeli Supreme Court to return diesel fuel deliveries to the pre-blockade levels.

No starvation.
No electricity cut-off.

Oh well, nothing to see here, move along...


BREAKING NEWS:
2 killed in violent Beirut protests over rationing of electricity (Reuters)


Hmmmmmmm, I wonder if anyone may wish to suggest that Israel begin to provide some power to Lebanon and help them out with their electricty shortage!
 
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And now, with the breach in the border, HAMAS is getting whatever they want across --- money, small arms, missiles, explosives, you name it. They even put up heavy cranes to lift over crates of Katyusha rockets, high-caliber machine guns, and mortars.

If it's been breached, why would you need a crane to lift anything over it?
 
BREAKING NEWS:
2 killed in violent Beirut protests over rationing of electricity (Reuters)


Hmmmmmmm, I wonder if anyone may wish to suggest that Israel begin to provide some power to Lebanon and help them out with their electricty shortage!

Could that have something to do with infrastructure being destroyed by Israel during the 2006 war?
 
T-F, do you actually have any interest whatsoever with discovering the facts, before you post random gibberish?
I do web, that Is why due to your recent efforts I accept nothing you claim without independant verification.

And now, with the breach in the border, HAMAS is getting whatever they want across --- money, small arms, missiles, explosives, you name it. They even put up heavy cranes to lift over crates of Katyusha rockets, high-caliber machine guns, and mortars.
Can you site the source for the crates of Katyushas being lifted over by heavy cranes please. The reason for the request is that you are preaching to me about how I should obtain facts....well web, should I get my own or rely on the ones that you fabricate on demand? What is the source of the claim about crates of Katyusha rockets web? I put it to you that it is your imagination but am always willing to give you an opportunity to demonstrate that you did not make it up. Remember, I'm not asking for a page long lecture on other things...just cranes crates and katyushas....can you do that?
 
Tough crowd --- I started by refuting the post of T-F with evidence of how the money flows into the coffers of the palestinians through various channels (an actual pea-and shell game they play in the Palestinian Authority)
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...01442523010&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
and in the course of that explanation I happened to mention something that I was made aware of by some friends of mine in the IDF. Rather than focus on the basic truths within my post offered (how HAMAS is bypassing the ban on monetary transactions by the EU, World Bank, Bank Leumi of Israel, etc...) all of a sudden, the shift of attention happens here just to see "sources" about the HAMAS taking advantage of the complete breakdown at Rafah in order to do some heavy-duty smuggling! As if they couldn't be doing that!

"No, web, you must be making that up! I'm skeptical of HAMAS bringing in heavy artillery."
"HAMAS smuggling Katyushas and other weaponry? Ridiculous!"
"Cranes? Why would they use cranes? The wall is down! Liar, Liar!"

Let me tell you folks here something, and don't ever forget it:
Stuff happens that doesn't make it onto the Internet. Not every aspect of reality has to be linked to some story on the Internet, in order for it to have happened.

At some point, you have to use your own brains, and say to yourselves:
"Hmmmmmm, that makes sense. I wish it was on wiki, but I can accept when I am told about something which seems logical, which appears true on its face, and I really don't require independent verification for me to accept the veracity of a specific event happening just as it was related to me."

For the record ----

I know some highly-placed people in the IAF, and they told me about the cranes. There was some discussion within the IDF top brass about sending Apache helicopter gunships to literally blow these cranes up right then and there with Hellfire guided missiles.
The HAMAS was using the masses of people in the area to cover their activities with the cranes, and the IAF decided to avoid the resulting 'collateral' deaths that would invariably occur by targeting them.

HAMAS is in full control of the breached Philadelphi Lanes, and they are carefully and meticulously orchestrating exactly what journalists see and photograph, and are regulating how the entire episode of the breakthrough is reported.


T-F says:
Remember, I'm not asking for a page long lecture on other things...just cranes crates and katyushas....can you do that?

"January 25,2008: Cranes lifted camels, cows and motorcycles into the Gaza Strip from Egypt on Friday " --- Sami Abu Salem (RNA)
http://english.ramattan.com/newsdetails.aspx?news_id=37550

Decide for yourselves if the HAMAS used their newly-erected cranes to bring across more than just "livestock and motorcycles" -- personally, I'm OK with believing what my IDF friends told me. I'm not skeptical about that at all. It simply just follows to reason.

Now, if Reuters, AP and Ha'aretz aren't reporting it, does that mean it wasn't happening?
Most likely the Katyushas were lifted over into gaza by these same cranes, hidden in "motorcycle" crates, at night while the reporters were asleep!

Anyway, when the Katyushas start flying at Israeli cities from gaza, I'm not going to be wondering where they got 'em!
 
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THIS JUST IN --- (snapped by a REUTERS cameraman at the gaza border)

craneliftingrocket.jpg
 
Could that have something to do with infrastructure being destroyed by Israel during the 2006 war?

Really we don't know, why don't you do some basic research, and let us know what you find out...



and here's another spectacular a_u_p "skeptical question" ----
If it's been breached, why would you need a crane to lift anything over it?

Hmmmmmmmmm....
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/01/25/gaza-border.html?ref=rss

and

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2008/01/25/gaza-cow-cp-4228479.jpg
(IMAGE LINK)

a_u_p, there's an old American saying: "Engage Brain before putting Mouth into Gear"
 
Webfusion don't worry, I'm sure The Fool, FireGarden a_u_p and others will come back soon with new comments about how the evil Israelis make life a living hell for the righteous Hamas and Palestinians.
I'm amazed at how you don't get tired with it all.
Keep up the good work.
Regards,
Yair
 
The Fool said:
Who is the west bank currently buffering you against? Who is Gaza currently buffering you against?
Historically the buffering were from Jordan and Egypt. If you're talking about today, you probably are very aware that Israel is for a Palestinian state but one that would be run by reasonable people and not terrorists. Do you agree that that is a fair condition or should Israel let Hamastan be its new neighboring country?
 
Webfusion don't worry, I'm sure The Fool, FireGarden a_u_p and others will come back soon with new comments about how the evil Israelis make life a living hell for the righteous Hamas and Palestinians.
I'm amazed at how you don't get tired with it all.
Keep up the good work.
Regards,
Yair

How can I get tired of it? They provide endless entertainment value here.

By the way, can you point to any local reports about the influx of weaponry by HAMAS across the breach at Rafiah? I am fascinated at the total avoidance of that subject by the major news networks, as if they don't wish to anger their "hosts" in gaza with actual details of how this breach has enabled the terrorists to get their hands on rockets, guns, explosives, bullets, and grenades.
They were previously limited to using tunnels to get these things in, and now with the steel partition removed, they are not limited at all. For all intents and purposes, HAMAS is establishing a terrorist army using the Hezbollah as a model, and apparently intends to pursue a campaign in coordination with Hezbollah whereby rockets will fly across the Israeli borders North and South. The inevitable defensive retaliations by the IDF will then be claimed as "war crimes" ---

and so it goes...
 
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The inevitable defensive retaliations by the IDF will then be claimed as "war crimes" ---

and so it goes...

Predictable, isn't it.....Yet they fail to level the same accusations at Hamas or Hezbollah, even though their targeting of civilians is a blatant violation of international law.
 

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