So you're an atheist. Ok, what next?

[X]

This is the fact that good, decent, compassionate, reflective atheist individuals (like good, decent, compassionate, reflective theists) have the wisdom to base their personal understanding of morality not on dogmatic intellectually held beliefs, but rather on their individual consciences. This factor plants in the consciousness of such people the unmistakable feeling that something is wrong with the moral system, and the moral system's hold is gradually eroded.

Exactly!

Basing morality on dogmatic systems is an excuse to set personal accountability aside.
Being personally acocuntable for your ethics and morals demands a far higher level of responsiblity, and arguably gives less leeway for performing amoral actions.
God is not necessary.

And atheism is not dogma, as you well know (or should). Religion, on the other hand...

 

[Darat]

Yes, I know. I just couldn't bear to read through the entire thread. These arguments get so tedious. Trying to get people like DOC or plumjam to even understand just how uncomplicated the term atheist is and that it says only ONE, SINGLE, SIMPLE thing about people who identify themselves as such, is very frustrating.

Your post and points will probably be ignored just as mine was:

You keep tripping over at the start - atheism isn't a "belief system" that's what theism is.

Although strictly speaking "theism" also isn't actually a belief system, it's merely a belief in some form of supernatural entity; albeit many theists also seem to have a belief system that includes that belief.

So when you talk about atheists v theists in regards to anything bar that one believes in a supernatural entity and the other doesn't you actually need to specify what belief system you are actually talking about. For example is it Christianity or Judaism - followers of both of those are theists but they do not share a common belief system.

Plumjam's assertion was something I had to comment on. There are very few guarantees in life, but here's one for you. Every one of the suicide bombers responsible for the murders of tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children over the last several decades were theists.

That isn't the case - for instance the group probably most responsible for pioneering the modern tactics of suicide attacks in recent years are a politically/nationally motivated group (see: Tamil tigers).

 

[Pardalis]

That isn't the case - for instance the group probably most responsible for pioneering the modern tactics of suicide attacks in recent years are a politically/nationally motivated group (see: Tamil tigers).

Yeah but for them to be convinced to give their lives they have to be true believers in the afterlife. That's the whole point of martyrdom, isn't it?

 

[Olowkow]

Thanks to the above posters for your support. You are much more eloquent that I could ever be. I agree that I'd rather hang out with these folks than with someone who insults me. And no, I don't generally even dislike believers.

But, when I am insulted, I insult back.

Implying that atheists are immoral is a mean spirited, personal and frankly stupid insult, and, at least in this country, it is a very dangerous and apparently commonly accepted belief. I will never stop fighting this implication at every turn. It is no different from homophobia or racism.

In the UK and France, my understanding is that such thinking is so marginalized as to be nothing more than a fringe belief. Not so here, so this might explain the ire that it evokes.

As for ad hominem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

it is a debate tactic to discredit the argument of one's opponent, in the strict sense. I guess in common parlance, some people use this term loosely to describe any insult as well. If the shoe fits...

Obviously standard debating tactics, i.e., the use of facts and logic does not work with some people.

 

[Vic Vega]

Yeah but for them to be convinced to give their lives they have to be true believers in the afterlife. That's the whole point of martyrdom, isn't it?

Yup. That's pretty much the point.

 

[Pardalis]

And no, I don't generally even dislike believers.

I have no problem with people who are religious and theists too, heck, my parents are and they are pretty rational people. We have mutual respect because none of us is trying to convince or criticize the other.

What I can't stand are the ones who preach and have a blatant agenda they want to push, like Plum's pathetic attempts in this thread to discredit Darwin's theory.

 

[tkingdoll]

*shrug*

In the UK prison system, atheists are the minority. Even more so in the USA, I believe.

What else is important when assessing morality? Laws are generally a reflection of what sort of behaviours are considered 'good' or 'bad'. So...atheists aren't the ones committing the crimes...what does that tell you about them, plumjam? Perhaps that they're the moral ones after all?

 

[Roadtoad]

Your post and points will probably be ignored just as mine was...

Well, as everyone else's was. Plumjam isn't really interested in learning or discussing anything. He reminds me of a church youth leader I knew who would tell you something it said in the Bible, then expect you to repeat it to him verbatim, lest ye be damned.

I remember him asking me to teach the kids a little something from Revelation one Wednesday night. I taught the lesson, but I caught serious hell from him because *GASP* I asked the kids questions and insisted they discuss what it was we were talking about, something they had NEVER encountered before. "We just don't do that sort of thing here," he counseled/(bitched).

That's the whole point of this: Plumjam is insistent that his is the ONLY way. He's a dogmatist, and he's only happy when he's confronting the "heathens." He's not interested in convincing anyone, but he's grooving on slapping around the "lost."

Hey, more power to him. "Ignore" still works.

 

[SonOfLaertes]

Plumjam: all atheists as a group contribute nothing to the furtherance of moral values in the world, because they all view the world in an x sort of way, and can't possibly feel a sense of wonder or majesty in their lives ...

responder1: but I view the world in a 1 sort of way, and every day feel a sense of wonder and majesty in life, where such beauty and complexity can evolve from randomness ....

responder2: and I view the world in a 2 sort of way, and every day feel a sense of wonder and majesty in life, where such beauty and complexity can evolve from randomness ....

responder3: and I view the world in a 3 sort of way, and every day feel a sense of wonder and majesty in life, where such beauty and complexity can evolve from randomness ....

.
.
.
.
responderN: and I view the world in an N sort of way, and every day feel a sense of wonder and majesty in life, where such beauty and complexity can evolve from randomness ....


Plumjam: all atheists as a group contribute nothing to the furtherance of moral values in the world, because they all view the world in an x sort of way, and can't possibly feel a sense of wonder or majesty in their lives ...

 

[articulett]

My dog is an atheist, and I find her much more moral and delightful than plumjam. She has never once been mean spirited. Religious people always think they are more moral than people who don't share their faith and those who don't have any faith at all, but as far as I can tell, that conjecture is not born out by any facts. I prefer less deluded, less self righteous, more honest, smart, and funny people myself. But, hey, that's just me. I find it immensely arrogant that people imagine they are getting their morals from some divine source--it's a way of doing what you want and pretending it's part of some divine plan.

 

[Ryokan]

That isn't the case - for instance the group probably most responsible for pioneering the modern tactics of suicide attacks in recent years are a politically/nationally motivated group (see: Tamil tigers).

Yeah but for them to be convinced to give their lives they have to be true believers in the afterlife. That's the whole point of martyrdom, isn't it?

Not necessarily. People have been known to die for ideas before. The first ever suicide attack against Israel was done by members of the Japanese Red Army.

 

[Roadtoad]

Plumjam: all atheists as a group contribute nothing to the furtherance of moral values in the world, because they all view the world in an x sort of way, and can't possibly feel a sense of wonder or majesty in their lives ...

responder1: but I view the world in a 1 sort of way, and every day feel a sense of wonder and majesty in life, where such beauty and complexity can evolve from randomness ....

responder2: and I view the world in a 2 sort of way, and every day feel a sense of wonder and majesty in life, where such beauty and complexity can evolve from randomness ....

responder3: and I view the world in a 3 sort of way, and every day feel a sense of wonder and majesty in life, where such beauty and complexity can evolve from randomness ....

.
.
.
.
responderN: and I view the world in an N sort of way, and every day feel a sense of wonder and majesty in life, where such beauty and complexity can evolve from randomness ....


Plumjam: all atheists as a group contribute nothing to the furtherance of moral values in the world, because they all view the world in an x sort of way, and can't possibly feel a sense of wonder or majesty in their lives ...

Nominated!!!

 

[Mojo]

My dog is an atheist, and I find her much more moral and delightful than plumjam.

My cats don't believe in God, and frequently lie about whether they've been fed.

But I suspect that that's because they're cats rather than because they don't believe in God.

 

[Olowkow]

Paddle faster. I hear banjos...

Roadtoad, is that a reference to the movie "Deliverance"? If not it should be...

 

[Roadtoad]

It is, and in this thread, it seems oddly appropriate...

 

[articulett]

So you're a theist--what next...

Now that you've determined you've got the divine truth about invisible entities and what they want... now what? Inflict it on others at skeptics forum?... get rid of "suppressive people"?... tell the world that "god hates fags"?.... drive planes into buildings to prove your faith?... send the children on a direct ticket to happily ever after land by killing them before they reach the age where they qualify for hell?... start a holy war?... tell everyone how they should be more like you?... imagine yourself as being chosen to convert the world to your divine truth?.. begin having revelations... perform exorcisms... play semantic games so you can confirm your bias that you are more moral and thus more favored by the invisible guy in the sky who thinks you are super duper? --Try to get your faith taught as fact in science classes? --Try to rewrite history of your government's constitution?

So many choices...

 

[Hokulele]

Wow, I skip one day on the forum due to traveling, and look what happens!

One thing I have noticed on this thread is that the theist position as presented here is incredibly self-centered. Most of the arguments have bordered on solipsism, and it seems like the only reason to act in a moral fashion is out of self-preservation. Empathy and compassion would be a facade used to cover the selfishness of their actions, and dehumanization of others comes naturally. Pretty much the only theistic attitude displayed on this thread I can agree with is the Golden Rule (which I believe was raised by one of the agnostics).

And I think this empathy why moral behavior occurs among most theists, atheists, and even other animal species. I can imagine myself in another person's place, and I can imagine how I would want to be treated. I have been hungry and can sympathize with a starving person and will use that sympathy to offer food and drink. I have been sick and can sympathize with a person struggling with their health and will use that sympathy to offer aid and comfort. I can't remember the details, but there was a study fairly recently on other primate species (chimpanzees and bonobos specifically), and I believe it was found that bonobos displayed empathic behavior, which may be a cause of the relative peacefulness of their social actions. With the bible, both the old and new testaments have several examples of the us vs. them mentality, and in several instances it comes very close to portaying the opposition as less than human.

On a second note, it was a great pleasure to meet Roadtoad, Toad's lovely wife, and Normal Dude the other night (as well as the other fine skeptical gentlemen on this thread I met previously in Houston). If anything, I work on making sure I deserve my husband rather than the other way around, although he did spend a rather lot of time last night after picking me up from the airport requesting that I "pull his finger". *Sigh*

 

[SonOfLaertes]

So you're a theist--what next...

Now that you've determined you've got the divine truth about invisible entities and what they want... now what? Inflict it on others at skeptics forum?... get rid of "suppressive people"?... tell the world that "god hates fags"?.... drive planes into buildings to prove your faith?... send the children on a direct ticket to happily ever after land by killing them before they reach the age where they qualify for hell?... start a holy war?... tell everyone how they should be more like you?... imagine yourself as being chosen to convert the world to your divine truth?.. begin having revelations... perform exorcisms... play semantic games so you can confirm your bias that you are more moral and thus more favored by the invisible guy in the sky who thinks you are super duper? --Try to get your faith taught as fact in science classes? --Try to rewrite history of your government's constitution?

So many choices...

Unambiguously define morality and virtue ....

precisely measure the total quantity of morality and virtue in the world ...

pidgeonhole the worlds population into into a small set of exactly defined groups, and identify those groups who haven't yet contributed their fair share to the total quantity ...

convince them to see the error of their ways ...

have lunch ...

live virtuous life ...

receive reward from invisible sky daddy, occasionally bumping into and receiving thanks from reformed heathens who only made it there because of him.

 

[bignickel]

Let's say you've lived at least a couple of decades, you've examined the options, and you've arrived at atheism.

Well.
Here you are.

What do you do now?
Let's say you then spend a few years trying to rescue other humans from what you (not they) regard as stupidity.

Ok. Then what?

What can you do that is positive?
Are there any specifically atheist 'values'?
Are there any specifically atheist charities that endeavour to improve the plight of individuals?
(I don't think I've heard of any. Whereas religious charities there are thousands.)

Well, it's up to you. What next?
Preferably positive.

Page 1, Graham Ross' reply, altering Plumjam's OP to show how his premises are critically flawed:

Let's say you've lived at least a couple of decades, you've examined the options, and you've arrived at the conclusion that Santa doesn't exist.

Well.
Here you are.

What do you do now?
Let's say you then spend a few years trying to rescue other humans from what you (not they) regard as stupidity.

Ok. Then what?

What can you do that is positive?
Are there any specifically asantaist 'values'?
Are there any specifically asantaist charities that endeavour to improve the plight of individuals?

And how does Plumjam defend his OP to show that his premises are not critically flawed?

as I expected, entirely negative

[/quote]
How can anyone take this guy seriously at this point? How is this thread going to page 9? Is there anything that Plumjam could ever post that will make people wake up to the troll he really is?

Rational minds are boggled.

 

[Civilized Worm]

Disbelieving is a negative position and therefore bad, so you should always believe everything you hear in order to remain positive and good.