So you're an atheist. Ok, what next?

[articulett]

Atheism saves you from becoming like plumjam...

I never find theists as moral as they seem to think they are; my favorite people are non-theists for the most part. The theists who preach here do not have qualities I'd want to associate myself with. Their goodness seems to exist only in their heads like their god.

I think all my favorite posters are non-theists-- or at least they never do the arrogant pretense of having tapped in on "divine truths"... they are funnier, smarter, less smarmy, and more honest than the plumjams that post here from my perspective. I just think that the theists preaching like plumjam sound as vacuous as the conspiracy theorists and new ager woosters.

How is it that they've managed to see themselves as inspirational is beyond me. I guess faith is good for the ego... but I can't tell one woo from the other as far as saying anything useful or true or as being someone I'd want to be like. Belief in god makes people feel like they know some "higher truth" while they don't know anything at all--at least nothing different than all those believers in things they don't believe in.

I don't know if theism leads to stupidity or if the stupid are more likely to believe that faith is a means of finding truth, but I can't but notice that there seems to be a strong correlation between the two.

 

[articulett]

Atheism saves you from becoming like plumjam...

I never find theists as moral as they seem to think they are; my favorite people are non-theists for the most part. The theists who preach here do not have qualities I'd want to associate myself with. Their goodness seems to exist only in their heads like their god.

I think all my favorite posters are non-theists-- or at least they never do the arrogant pretense of having tapped in on "divine truths"... they are funnier, smarter, less smarmy, and more honest than the plumjams that post here from my perspective. I just think that the theists preaching like plumjam sound as vacuous as the conspiracy theorists and new ager woosters.

How is it that they've managed to see themselves as inspirational is beyond me. I guess faith is good for the ego... but I can't tell one woo from the other as far as saying anything useful or true or as being someone I'd want to be like. Belief in god makes people feel like they know some "higher truth" while they don't know anything at all--at least nothing different than all those believers in things they don't believe in.

I don't know if theism leads to stupidity or if the stupid are more likely to believe that faith is a means of finding truth, but I can't but notice that there seems to be a strong correlation between the two.

 

[megaresp]

Atheism remains silent on the matter, as it does on so many other important issues.

Please direct me to the official Atheist governing body, so I can go `round there and stamp on their toys until they start issuing official commandments for atheists to follow.

You know commandments, right? They take this form: Thou shalt not do ___ or thou shalt get a good sharp whack around thine head.

Personally, I find this sort of thing a very positive approach to life. A magic fairy who watches everybody with the dedication of the Stasi, taking notes and storing them up for later, so it can then dish out the punishments.

Yup, can't get much more positive than that.

 

[Lothian]

Each of those issues would deserve at least a thread each.
Luckily you have access to your own conscience. This allows you to try to perceive what is right and wrong in each issue, and weigh up the balance of competing claims.

I agree with you. When it comes to making moral decsions it is for each of us to decide and God has nothing to do with it.

 

[lupus_in_fabula]

Wow, it seems to be redundant to post in this thread anymore. Only one thing thou, because this seems to elucidate the problem in your way or reasoning, in general:

A chair designed by a top furniture designer will get a virtually unanimously superior aesthetic rating from viewers, than would a chair designed by a chimpanzee. So, yes, aesthetics, 'niceness' is objective too.

Don’t be stupid; one has to take a look at the chair first before deciding (whoever the designers are, and whatever the odds might be).

 

[linusrichard]

1. Boy this thread grew fast.

2. I don't know what exclusive materialism is in real life, but I looked at plumjam's definition of it earlier in the thread, and I can tell you that if that definition's right, I don't believe in exclusive materialism. So either he's wrong about all atheists on this board believing in exclusive materialsim, or his definition of exclusive materialism is wrong. Or both.

3. Plumjam might be well served to learn the difference between ad hominem and a mere insult. While both might be inappropriate, there is an important difference.

4. I propose a new type of fallacy: "ad ad hominem" - that can be illustrated in the following syllogism: "You argue that x is true, but in your argument in favor of x, you used a personal attack or insult. Therefore, x is not true."

5. Plumjam has to be a world-record evader of legitimate questions and arguments. This thread is amazing. If plumjam is interested in addressing a response to his OP that is not negative, contains no personal attacks or ad hom, and is serious and not facetious, I have one on the first page of the thread. But he is clearly not interested in this, so he falsely labels it "facetious" and moves on. Masterful.

And:
6. Putting aside the first 7+ pages of this thread, putting aside all the talk, putting aside points 1 through 5 of this post, and just forgetting about all that, my question is this:
What is the point?! I am an atheist, and there isn't any other way for me to be. You might say, with a certain irony, that I'm just as God made me! Even if I found the "arguments" (implicit) in the OP totally convincing, they can't make me a theist. I would be, at best, an atheist theist - living a sham theism but not truly believing. There are some people who can believe in things because they want them to be true. If I were one of those people, I could be a theist. I am not - I need a better reason to believe something is true than just that it will make me a happier or better person. It's not that I'm unwilling to believe something on those grounds; I believe I am quite literally unable to. This is what baffles me about plumjam and DOC's posts. Sure, it's fun to poke holes in them, because they are generally pretty wrong, but even if they were right, the most they could do would be to make me wish I were a theist. Only evidence could make me into a theist, and they haven't got that.

 

[JoeEllison]

Round and 'round the Plumjam's logic goes, where it stops...

It stops when he feels that he's been rude and insulting enough to prop up his ego for a couple of days. That's all this thread exists for.

 

[rocketdodger]

yes, I didn't take up your challenge, Rocketdodger, mainly because I have read some of your posts on other threads and have seen how you end up speaking to people who happen to disagree with you.
this post to me just confirms that my intuition not to waste my time was correct.

I end up speaking strongly to those who refuse to address my counter-arguments and habitually dodge the issues I bring up, not people who simply "disagree" with me.

This is a debate forum. I happen to think that presenting arguments and addressing those of others is paramount. When people fail to do this, then I call a spade a spade. I happen to be a materialist, and I tried to defend myself in the face of your slander. You ignore. I simply point out the obvious: you are vomiting the same bullsh-- over and over despite many arguments people have made showing your statements to be wrong. Is this incorrect? Why did you start this thread if you don't want to actually discuss the issue? Oh... I know why...

You come in here and tell us materialists that effectively our worldview would necessitate us being serial rapists if it were correct, and you presume to act like WE are doing the insulting? Nothing is more insulting to a person than to be slandered then ignored when they try to defend themselves. Have we ever done that to you? NO.

I know you won't respond to my challenge. Your type never does. That was the whole point of making it -- everyone reading now knows just what kind of person you are. You see, continuing to make statements even when you know they are incorrect is lying.

It doesn't matter, anyway, because I will post solid rebuttals to your puke whether you ignore me or not. Anyone reading will be able to see just how wrong you are.

 

[plumjam]

I suggest Plumjam and Rocketdodger exchange usernames.

That is one heck of a dodge there, Plum.

Thanks.
*winking at you like the guy in your avatar*

(is that Jack Kerouac?)

 

[plumjam]

Gosh, golly. A day or more and several thread pages later and and Plumjam still hasn't managed to respond to my post.

Dglas, sorry about that. It's just that 300 posts in this thread in 24 hours, there's only so much I can do.

 

[plumjam]

Wow, it seems to be redundant to post in this thread anymore. Only one thing thou, because this seems to elucidate the problem in your way or reasoning, in general:



Don’t be stupid; one has to take a look at the chair first before deciding (whoever the designers are, and whatever the odds might be).

unsurprisingly, I don't follow you

 

[plumjam]

I end up speaking strongly to those who refuse to address my counter-arguments and habitually dodge the issues I bring up, not people who simply "disagree" with me.

This is a debate forum. I happen to think that presenting arguments and addressing those of others is paramount. When people fail to do this, then I call a spade a spade. I happen to be a materialist, and I tried to defend myself in the face of your slander. You ignore. I simply point out the obvious: you are vomiting the same bullsh-- over and over despite many arguments people have made showing your statements to be wrong. Is this incorrect? Why did you start this thread if you don't want to actually discuss the issue? Oh... I know why...

You come in here and tell us materialists that effectively our worldview would necessitate us being serial rapists if it were correct, and you presume to act like WE are doing the insulting? Nothing is more insulting to a person than to be slandered then ignored when they try to defend themselves. Have we ever done that to you? NO.

I know you won't respond to my challenge. Your type never does. That was the whole point of making it -- everyone reading now knows just what kind of person you are. You see, continuing to make statements even when you know they are incorrect is lying.

It doesn't matter, anyway, because I will post solid rebuttals to your puke whether you ignore me or not. Anyone reading will be able to see just how wrong you are.

thanks; double confirmation

 

[Radrook]

Forget about soul, god and the afterlife, how can a snake speak? That's what I wanna know.

That's like asking: "How can a puppet speak?"

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Let's say you've lived at least a couple of decades, you've examined the options, and you've arrived at atheism.

Well.
Here you are.

What do you do now?
Let's say you then spend a few years trying to rescue other humans from what you (not they) regard as stupidity.

Ok. Then what?

What can you do that is positive?
Are there any specifically atheist 'values'?
Are there any specifically atheist charities that endeavour to improve the plight of individuals?
(I don't think I've heard of any. Whereas religious charities there are thousands.)

Well, it's up to you. What next?
Preferably positive.

Well, let's see. I spent the first couple decades growing up, sowing the wild oats and whatnot. Then a decade or so in college split up amongst traveling the world. I consider that my concentrated explorer phase. It was concentrated during that time, but I've always been an explorer and assume I always will be. Then I spent 2 decades raising a wonderful son. And now I'm contemplating what adventure I'll be off on next when my son is out of college and living on his own.

From my teens onward I've been a part-time peace activist. Maybe I could have dedicated more time to the cause, but I have done more than the average person. Recently, I've adopted the mission of improving the collective human consciousness. The way I see it, the world needs more critical thinking. Atheism and critical thinking go hand in hand.

I believe we contribute to the betterment of humanity by contributing our little piece. I think I have influenced people and that is very satisfying.

For the next phase in my life, I'm considering joining Dr.s Without Borders or something similar. I'm particularly concerned with the welfare of women in the third world. I think countries with women rights are also countries with less warfare. Can't say for sure there is a cause and effect but the evidence certainly suggests there is.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So, PJ, have you listed your great accomplishments here? Could you direct me to the post # so I don't have to search through 8 pages?

 

[plumjam]

So, PJ, have you listed your great accomplishments here? Could you direct me to the post # so I don't have to search through 8 pages?

no, unlike you I'm naturally modest

(hey guys... just kidding)

 

[DOC]

Bill Gates gives billions through his foundation, and he's at least an agnostic, maybe an atheist.

Yes, but if he was Christian, he might give a lot more. The bible implies its not how much you give but how much of a sacrifice it is. (e.g. the parable of the woman with the 2 mites). If you give 2 billion but have 48 billion more that's probably not a big sacrifice- although its better than nothing. Also it can be argued that a lot of businesses suffered at the hands of Microsoft which is probably why there are a lot of lawsuits against them.

Also the Gates Foundation has received criticism that a high proportion of their donations go to technology. The LA Times had a article about some of the criticisms of where the Gates Foundation money is going.

Warren Buffet is an atheist and he gives billions as well.

Warren Buffet has admitted to being agnostic. There is no evidence that I've seen that he is an atheist.

 

[fanboy]

Let's say you've lived at least a couple of decades, you've examined the options, and you've arrived at atheism.

Well.
Here you are.

What do you do now?

Ironically, I live my life in a manner similar to the religious people I respect and try to live by example.

Let's say you then spend a few years trying to rescue other humans from what you (not they) regard as stupidity.

Ok. Then what?

Live by example. I don't drink alcohol, smoke, or abuse drugs. That way, people don't think I'm an atheist just so I do things like that.

Typically, I give to charities that feed people and help battered woman. I don't care if they're religious, I only care if they help people.

What can you do that is positive?

A number of things. See above for two. For the most part I can do anything a religious or spiritual person would do. I can give advice, donate money, talk to people, an vote in a manner I think is beneficial to the world.

Are there any specifically atheist 'values'?

No. There are secular values. There are also values that important to both the religious and non-religious. For example, I hold that murder is immoral, so do Christians. I believe in behaving altruistic, a secular value. My values and morals, do not stem from aehtistim. Where they do come from is an interesting question and I'm thinking about a lot.

Are there any specifically atheist charities that endeavor to improve the plight of individuals?
(I don't think I've heard of any. Whereas religious charities there are thousands.)

I don't know about specifically atheist charities, my criteria for charitable contributions is mostly a "do they do what they claim to do?" question. I'm not terribly concerned with the motive behind the altruism.

Well, it's up to you. What next?
Preferably positive.

Good question. And good timing. Yesterday I was at work at the comic book shop I work at, and a guy came in and started to talk to my boss about about hauntings and such. She's a believer in ghosts and haunting and said that she grew-up in a haunted house.

I stayed out of the conversation, preferring to help the people on the floor.

Later the gentleman came-up to me and asked if I was a believer in ghosts. I told the truth. He said that an individual's beliefs affect how the supernatural interacts with them. I mentioned that it would seem odd that the supernatural would only affect believers. He paused, seeming to realize the logical implications of what he said. Then he said that sometimes the supernatural does affect nonbelievers. I kept the conversation short, polite, and I smiled while I talked.

Now this guy knows that there is one guy who doesn't believe in the supernatural who can think well, is polite, happy, and doesn't go around shoving he non-beliefs down other's throat.

Maybe, this guy will think of me the next time he's at a haunted graveyard and be a little more critical. Maybe he won't. Either way, I like to think I've set a good example.

 

[plumjam]

Ironically, I live my life in a manner similar to the religious people I respect and try to live by example.

Live by example. I don't drink alcohol, smoke, or abuse drugs. That way, people don't think I'm an atheist just so I do things like that.

Typically, I give to charities that feed people and help battered woman. I don't care if they're religious, I only care if they help people.


A number of things. See above for two. For the most part I can do anything a religious or spiritual person would do. I can give advice, donate money, talk to people, an vote in a manner I think is beneficial to the world.


No. There are secular values. There are also values that important to both the religious and non-religious. For example, I hold that murder is immoral, so do Christians. I believe in behaving altruistic, a secular value. My values and morals, do not stem from aehtistim. Where they do come from is an interesting question and I'm thinking about a lot.

I don't know about specifically atheist charities, my criteria for charitable contributions is mostly a "do they do what they claim to do?" question. I'm not terribly concerned with the motive behind the altruism.

Good question. And good timing. Yesterday I was at work at the comic book shop I work at, and a guy came in and started to talk to my boss about about hauntings and such. She's a believer in ghosts and haunting and said that she grew-up in a haunted house.

I stayed out of the conversation, preferring to help the people on the floor.

Later the gentleman came-up to me and asked if I was a believer in ghosts. I told the truth. He said that an individual's beliefs affect how the supernatural interacts with them. I mentioned that it would seem odd that the supernatural would only affect believers. He paused, seeming to realize the logical implications of what he said. Then he said that sometimes the supernatural does affect nonbelievers. I kept the conversation short, polite, and I smiled while I talked.

Now this guy knows that there is one guy who doesn't believe in the supernatural who can think well, is polite, happy, and doesn't go around shoving he non-beliefs down other's throat.

Maybe, this guy will think of me the next time he's at a haunted graveyard and be a little more critical. Maybe he won't. Either way, I like to think I've set a good example.

See guys?
Now that was a nice answer. No facetiousness, no ad hom against me for asking the questions, no trying to be clever or sarcastic. Just a nice straight answer.
Thanks Fanboy.

I wish you luck on finding out where your morals come from.

 

[cyborg]

Yes, but if he was Christian, he might give a lot more.

Now we just need to find examples of those multi-billionaire Christians giving away all their fortune...

I wish you luck on finding out where your morals come from.

It's your brain plumjam.