If Everyone in the world was atheistic would there be more or less crime

[lupus_in_fabula]

Most theists would believe atheism is an imaginary entity. But this thread really isn't about does God exist or not.

Some other threads that are more related to that topic are:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97347

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103668

Fine. If they think lack of belief (in an imaginary entity) is an entity in and by itself, let them believe that (they have, after all, a high propensity to narrate things into existence).

SO, more the point of the discussion then: DOC, are you up for Hitchens’ challenge? (1) Name a moral act or statement by a theist that could not have been done by a non-theist. (2) Name a wicked action that could only have been derived directly from theistic justification.

 

[DOC]

A good way to get an indication of the answer to your question would be to look at countries which have high percentages of atheists, and then look at their crime rate.

Unfortunately for you DOC, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Japan, which have the highest proportion of Atheists in the world, have among the lowest crime rates in the world.

I am afraid the evidence does not support your hypothesis DOC.

Yes, but all of those 4 countries have a higher suicide rate than the mostly Christian US. And the very rich Japan has more than double the rate of the US. Also it is no secret that atheistic Russia has extensive organized crime and corruption problems as well as other ex-Soviet satellites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Also all those countries you mentioned are highly isolated from the rest of the world and aren't subject to the same multiracial and uneven income distribution pressures that say the US or France is.

And those countries you mentioned might even have a lower crime rate if everyone was theistic. Or a higher rate if everyone was atheistic for the reasons I've given in the above posts.

 

[Mobyseven]

Yes, but a very good way to make the best of it is to have a lot of money. A quick way to get a lot of money (if your poor and uneducated) is to rob a bank. Sure you might get caught and ruin your life by going to jail, but that would be your only punishment. Theists would also have to worry about 2 punishments -- this life and the afterlife.

So theists don't rob banks?

 

[-Fran-]

Yes, but all of those 4 countries have a higher suicide rate than the mostly Christian US.

Ahh, yeah, we depressed Swedes kill ourselves in droves! Have you any evidence that it is the case at all? And even if it should be correct that it in that case is because of atheism? And what is the connection between a high suicide rate and a high crime rate anyway?

An atheist thinks that only money can make this only life better, he at once starts to committ crimes (there's no other way to get money) he fears no consequences because he doesn't believe in god, and a punishment in this life isn't deterrent enough, but then, somehow, he gets a bad conscience anyway and kills himself? Have I summed up your argument so far nicely?

 

[-Fran-]

Also all those countries you mentioned are highly isolated from the rest of the world

What?

 

[Sunstealer]

Atheistic Russia?? You are babbling incoherently and changing your statements every few posts from crime to suicide. Is suicide a crime? And how do you punish that exactly? What next? Homosexuality or something? Has it not occurred to you that ex-soviet satellite states have religions too? Your statements merely show your lack of education with regard to the rest of the world.

You are trying the tired and rather old "we wouldn't be moral without god" nonsense.

If that were the case you would expect to see every atheist out to get what they wanted whenever they wanted using any method they could. The religious wouldn't exist because the atheists would have butchered them all and taken their possessions along time ago because we are obviously a bunch of amoral, materialistic goons.

/And breathe.

If I was a mod I'd delete this rubbish, it's no more than DOCs usual ploy.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Also all those countries you mentioned are highly isolated from the rest of the world and aren't subject to the same multiracial and uneven income distribution pressures that say the US or France is.

Sweden, Norway, Denmark & Japan are highly isolated from the rest of the world?

What measure are you using to judge that? I would speculate that a vastly higher percentage of the population of at least the Scandanavian three has spent time travelling, living or working abroad than is the case for the US.

 

[-Fran-]

Sweden, Norway, Denmark & Japan are highly isolated from the rest of the world?

What measure are you using to judge that? I would speculate that a vastly higher percentage of the population of at least the Scandanavian three has spent time travelling, living or working abroad than is the case for the US.

Maybe he thinks that the whole of Scandinavia is situated above the polar circle, and that we only occasionally get a glimpse of the rest of the world through our TVs and computers, when the connection is good in our igloos

 

[joobz]

crime would remain the same.

 

[Francesca R]

But in my opinion, if everyone in the world (rich, poor, and middle class) was atheistic and believed there was nothing after death, I would have to believe there would be more crime in the world.

You can believe what you wish. But for what reason?

For example, think of a poor neighborhood in your area. Now take away all the churches in those poor neighborhoods, because if everyone was atheistic there would be no church going.
And if you take away those churches you'll also have to take away any charity work done by those churches. I have to believe if you took away the churches and charity work those churches do, crime would increase in that area.

This argument implies that people engage in charity work because they believe in God. So why do atheists do charity work? That reason can't be it.

It would also seem that Theists would have more of the guilt factor that they were violating one of God's rules that a atheist would be less likely to have. It would seem rational to conclude that less guilty feelings means more crime.

Doesn't "God" tell some believers to commit crime? There could be more crime because of theism.

Yes, but a very good way to make the best of it is to have a lot of money. A quick way to get a lot of money (if your poor and uneducated) is to rob a bank.

No, that's not a quick way for poor, uneducated people to get a lot of money

 

[JoeEllison]

No, DOC... I mean, after all, I believe that if you were an atheist, you'd be just as dishonest and hateful as you are now.

 

[thatguywhojuggles]

Yes, but a very good way to make the best of it is to have a lot of money. A quick way to get a lot of money (if your poor and uneducated) is to rob a bank. Sure you might get caught and ruin your life by going to jail, but that would be your only punishment. Theists would also have to worry about 2 punishments -- this life and the afterlife.

Actually a theist doesn't have to worry about 2 punishments. He can murder babies, and then turn around and ask Jesus to forgive him, and all is well (he gets to go to heaven). Imagine him going up to a judge and saying, "I'm sorry I killed babies. Can I go now?"

 

[DOC]

Atheistic Russia?? You are babbling incoherently and changing your statements every few posts from crime to suicide. Is suicide a crime?.

Up until recently it was considered a felony in some US states. And it is a sin in the Christian religion. That's why the church is so against doctor assisted suicide. And didn't Dr. Kevorkian do a lot of time in prison for helping people kill themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_views_of_suicide

 

[DOC]

Actually a theist doesn't have to worry about 2 punishments. He can murder babies, and then turn around and ask Jesus to forgive him, and all is well (he gets to go to heaven). Imagine him going up to a judge and saying, "I'm sorry I killed babies. Can I go now?"

I have a feeling God can figure out who is really sincere about their repentance.

 

[thatguywhojuggles]

DOC, if what you believe is true, can you explain why atheist make up less than 1 percent of the prison population?

http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm

 

[thatguywhojuggles]

I have a feeling God can figure out who is really sincere about their repentance.

But that doesn't change the point I made. A theist still doesn't have to worry about 2 punishments. If I truly believed in heaven/hell, and I did something wrong, my repentance would be absolutely sincere.

 

[lupus_in_fabula]

Yes, but all of those 4 countries have a higher suicide rate than the mostly Christian US. And the very rich Japan has more than double the rate of the US. Also it is no secret that atheistic Russia has extensive organized crime and corruption problems as well as other ex-Soviet satellites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Also all those countries you mentioned are highly isolated from the rest of the world and aren't subject to the same multiracial and uneven income distribution pressures that say the US or France is.

And those countries you mentioned might even have a lower crime rate if everyone was theistic. Or a higher rate if everyone was atheistic for the reasons I've given in the above posts.

Now you’re just desperately reaching for any irrelevancies in your vicinity, but they’re slipping away from you – like when trying to open a can with oily hands. (Oily hands are only useful when masturbating). What comes to ‘isolationist Scandinavia and Japan’ or ‘atheistic Russia’, you’re just wandering blindfolded and in the dark! Moreover, even if you consider suicide to be a real crime – which is highly questionable – the number of such “crimes” does not have statistical significance anyway.

Wasn’t your intention to discuss if there’s something instinct in theistic beliefs that would affect crime rates, something that cannot be explained by other sociological factors? So first we have to evaluate if there’s something in theistic beliefs that is of value in this context. The immediate point of departure would be answering the two questions presented. You might also have third question at your disposal: If there’s some wicked action that could only have been derived directly from atheistic justification. But since atheism is not an explicit belief system, the question is somewhat nonsensical. It’s almost as if such a question is only justified in a theistic context.

So here goes, a third time: 1) Name a moral act or statement by a theist that could not have been done by a non-theist. (2) Name a wicked action that could only have been derived directly from theistic justification.

 

[Furi]

Well with the removal of organised theistic religion, there would be an immediate drop in crimes caused by "God wanted me to do it" cases, or Angels told me to do it etc, as well as Fundy violence committed, but the the Anti Social Arses would probably find another reason to get their Hate on now that their favourite excuse has been removed.

DOC you really REALLY should find out that there is a hell of a lot more planet outside of the Americas, you could maybe try visiting Europe or Scandanavia and find out just how isolated we are. Bizarrely, most people I know think of the US as isolationist and xenophobic.

 

[H3LL]

Back to the OP. (It's often difficult to follow DOC's motorised goalposts)

If Everyone in the world was atheistic would there be more or less crime

Very simple and easy answer.

There would definitely be less crime.

There would be no religious crimes.

.

 

[The_Fire]

What?

My sentiment exactly.......And, I believe, that of the Danish Foreignminister, Primeminister and the Minister of Defense.......