POSITIVE EVIDENCE for WTC7 Controlled Demolition

So the important questions;

need to be explored;

and hopefully NIST will fund more research.

so far, they have only done tests like this one;

so, no tests have been done to determine the possible source of sulfur, and if this source would be available before collapse.

right?

the answers i want have not been discovered. and if they have, just tell me.

1. where the sulfur likely came from (source)

2. if the sulfur was available before the collapse (source)

NIST did study this issue.
You can read about it in NIST NCSTAR 1-3C 6.3.4 Unique cases of Damage Possibly Related to Elevated Temperature Exposure.

One of the two samples that Barnett & Biederman studied, the one from the WTC towers, is discussed in detail. (See Column K-16 - pg 229, pictures of the column are on 262 & 267)

What NIST found out, because NIST had the entire column while B&B only had a small sample, was that the damage was CLEARLY, post collapse.

It made the whole thing a NON-ISSUE.

Arthur
 
OK Gravy.

I guess I will have to ask the experts if I want to know.

Don't you want to know?

What high sulfur diesel fuel and water can do to steel,
Notice the yellow pure sulfur on the metal, formed by reduction of SO2 by carbon monoxide.

Highsulfurdieselonsteela.JPG


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TGM-48V827N-G&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a1b0fca5bc77c639ce1cfc3fda8a3329

PVC pipe and chlorides are what cause th CO to reduce SO2 forming the sulfur- forming Pyrites in the rubble pile at low temperature causing low temperature integrandular breakdown of the Crystalline metal gains and reformation of pyrites.

The formation of FES that oxidizes to Fe 304, and SO2 at 540C is the key to understanding that it is a low temperature reaction.
 
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NIST did study this issue.
You can read about it in NIST NCSTAR 1-3C 6.3.4 Unique cases of Damage Possibly Related to Elevated Temperature Exposure.

One of the two samples that Barnett & Biederman studied, the one from the WTC towers, is discussed in detail. (See Column K-16 - pg 229, pictures of the column are on 262 & 267)

What NIST found out, because NIST had the entire column while B&B only had a small sample, was that the damage was CLEARLY, post collapse.

It made the whole thing a NON-ISSUE.

Arthur

Thanks for the info.

I will give those a read.
 
But what does this have to do with controlled demolition? If anything it goes against it because CD's happen all the time and this effect is not seen.

Do you think this may be proof of no CD?

It isn't proof of conventional CD.

However I am still wondering about the source of sulfur, and if that source caused sulfidation before collapse.

Sulfidation in an office fire is anomalous, and I'd like to know what caused it.

Jones says these observations can be explained if thermate were present.

Everybody here says he is crazy, or at least misguided. That is fine but I have yet to see a report that identifies a natural source of sulfur using the scientific method (tests/lab fires/etc).

So my questions remain and I have to remain somewhat open to any source until my questions can be answered.

I hope NIST in their WTC7 report address this issue.
 
Ok Gravy. I made a false claim based on ignorance.

Your links did not answer my questions and thus my ignorance remains.

Now there are 3 choices.

1. I remain ignorant.
2. I contact authors of papers I've seen abstracts of, to see if they have done the tests I am curious about
3. You tell me if they have done them or not.

So, my question to you remains.

Have there been any tests done to determine the likelyhood of a natural source of sulfur, and, was that source only available after the collapse?

Sizzler, why is it Gravy's job to teach you everything you want to know about WTC7?

Your questions and writing style make it seem that you are a lazy arrogant child who is mooching off Gravy. It's not his responsibility to do your work for you and, guess what, your rudely-worded demands for him to teach you are probably starting to annoy him.
 
Sizzler, when you state that smoldering fires must be cooler, you are repeating a common misunderstanding, which ultimately comes from failing to clearly differentiate between heat and temperature.

Hydrocarbon combustion releases chemical energy in the form of heat. When heat is added to matter, the temperature goes up. More heat means higher temperature, without limits. If you have hydrogen and oxygen separately preheated to, say, 2000 degrees, and you mix them and allow them to combust, the reaction adds heat and the reaction products will get hotter than 2000 degrees.

The reason fires don't normally keep heating up to thousands of degrees has nothing to do with any inherent limits on energy conversion by combustion. (Such limits do exist, but at much higher temperatures, where chemical bonds cannot form at all.) It's because of heat dissipation.

Consider what happens if you have a steady release of heat in a localized environment -- say, a gas burner flame under an empty pan. The general rule is that the hotter something is compared to its surroundings, the faster heat flows from it to its surroundings. So, in the case of our heated pan, at first the temperature rises, because when the temperature is only slightly above the temperature of the surroundings, transfer of heat to the surroundings is much slower than the rate heat is released by the burner. As the temperature of the pan rises, it becomes hotter than its surroundings by a larger amount, so it loses heat faster. But the temperature will continue to rise as long as the rate heat is lost to the surroundings is less than the rate heat is released by the flame. The temperature will rise until it reaches a point where the rate of heat loss to the surroundings is the same as the rate of heat release by the burner, an equilibrium temperature. Whether the pan will get hot enough to melt depends on what temperature that equilibrium occurs, which in turn depends on both the rate of heat release, and the rate of heat loss to the surroundings. So, how hot the pan gets doesn't only depend on how high the gas flame is turned to. It also depends on the size, shape, and materials of the pan, and the configuration and materials of the immediate surroundings.

Similarly for an uncontrolled fire, if you change either the combustion rate or any of the many factors affecting the heat dissipation rate, you change the "maximim temperature" (which you can now see is not a maximum at all, but an equilibrium temperature) that a fire can heat the surrounding materials to.

Right away, this means that any blanket statement of the "maximum temperature" a given kind of fuel can reach is bunk. The best that can be said is that certain typical fire situations, reach certain typical maximum temperatures. Change any parameter -- fuel, ventilation, surrounding materials, shape, or size of the scenario -- and the equilibrium temperature can change radically. If any parameter is not typical, do not expect typical temperatures.

How do specific factors affect the rate of heat loss change? Let's look in more detail at the physical mechanisms by which heat moves: conduction (heat transfer by contact between molecules), convection (heat transfer by movement of heated fluid), and radiation (heat transfer by emission and absorbtion of photons). Heat transfer is complex because these three mechanisms each follow different rules in how they are affected by materials, geometry, and the magnitude of the temperature difference. For example, heat cannot pass across a cross a vacuum by conduction or convection, but it can by radiation. Opaque solid materials can block radiation, but many of them permit rapid conduction.

Note that all of these mechanisms can only transfer heat from the surface of a heated mass. (That's a bit of an oversimplification for radiation; for radiation it doesn't apply to transparent materials, but transparent materials are also poor radiators so it's still basically true.) As you scale up a heated mass of a given shape in three dimensions, the ratio of the amount of heat to the rate of heat loss to the surroundings must increase. That's one reason bigger fires can get hotter.

Conduction of heat through a solid depends linearly on the gradient of the temperature difference. Twice as much temperature difference means twice as much heat flows. Heat transfer rates by radiation depend on the differences of the fourth powers of the temperatures (in absolute units). That means radiation is a minor factor at low temperature differences, but increases much faster so that at high temperatures it becomes the dominant factor. Convection is in between those two, it increases faster than linearly with increasing temperature, but not as fast as radiation.

This means that the hotter a fire is, the more radiation and convection become the dominant processes of heat dissipation. Many fires grow in two dimensions, horizontally, rather than three. In such cases the ground below the fire and the air above it are poor conductors of heat. So conduction only acts significantly at the edges of the fire (which only increases as the square root of the fire's area, and so decreases in proportion to the fire's size), while convection and radiation apply throughout the area. More generally, heat loss from conduction is only important in fire on a very small scale -- it's the main reason why it's difficult to ignite a large wood log with a match, but it won't make any difference if you throw the same log onto a bonfire.

Now, what happens when there is a large fire, burning underground in a coal seam or the huge rubble piles at Ground Zero? You looked at the rate of heat release, which is limited by the limited ventilation, and concluded that such fires can only reach lower temperatures. But to find an equilibrium you must consider both sides of the equation, in this case heat release rate and heat dissipation rate. Look more closely at what happens to the heat in an underground fire. Heat transfer by radiation is for all practical purposes eliminated. And heat transfer by convection is greatly reduced; only the relatively small smoke plumes are removing heat from the mass. That leaves conduction, which is a far slower mechanism of heat transfer to begin with, especially for large-volume fires, and the piles contain layers of crushed concrete and are contained in concrete and earth, which are excellent insulators. The mechanisms that most effectively remove the most heat from the largest masses and at the highest temperatures are the ones that are shut down. Heat dissipation is slowed down by limited convection and radiation, to a larger degree than heat release is slowed down by limited ventiation. So the equilibrium interior temperature at which the heat dissipation rate equals heat release rate increases.

Please, look up underground coal seam fires if you still have difficulty understanding how a smoldering fire undeground can become much hotter than an open fire burning the same fuels. That should at least suggest to you that your incredulity is the result of your not understanding the complex nature of the phenomenon, rather than from the phenomenon not existing.

You might also enjoy considering the following question, using the above facts to guide you: why is the sun so hot? You might want to start by calculating the sun's mean heat release rate per cubic centimeter per minute, given that the sun has a limited supply of fuel that is expected to last over 10 billion years. Cubic centimeter for cubic centimeter, the sun produces heat orders of magnitude slower than any chemical fire, even orders of mangitude slower than the tissues of your own body. So how does the sun stay so hot for billions of years?

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
It isn't proof of conventional CD.

However I am still wondering about the source of sulfur, and if that source caused sulfidation before collapse.

Sulfidation in an office fire is anomalous, and I'd like to know what caused it.

Jones says these observations can be explained if thermate were present.

Everybody here says he is crazy, or at least misguided. That is fine but I have yet to see a report that identifies a natural source of sulfur using the scientific method (tests/lab fires/etc).

So my questions remain and I have to remain somewhat open to any source until my questions can be answered.

I hope NIST in their WTC7 report address this issue.



911myths.com is an invaluable source for the objective student of these controversies. Dr. Greening's paper on sulfur, along with his other published work on 911-related issues, can be found there:

http://911myths.com/Sulfur.pdf
 
It isn't proof of conventional CD.

However I am still wondering about the source of sulfur, and if that source caused sulfidation before collapse.

Sulfidation in an office fire is anomalous, and I'd like to know what caused it.

Jones says these observations can be explained if thermate were present.

Everybody here says he is crazy, or at least misguided. That is fine but I have yet to see a report that identifies a natural source of sulfur using the scientific method (tests/lab fires/etc).

So my questions remain and I have to remain somewhat open to any source until my questions can be answered.

I hope NIST in their WTC7 report address this issue.


Anything that contained SO2 from the dry wall to the sulfuric acid in batteries, to the SO2 created when the diesel fuel burned to the hydrogen sulfide in the sewers, below the buildings could have been a source of sulfur, however the sulfur has to go though a reduction reaction in a reducing Environment!

PS, I showed you the results of an experiment involving sulfur and steel in a reducing enviroment using the Scientific method.

SO2+2CO=S+Fe=FeS At 540c FeS+O=SO2-Fe+O=Fe304. 4H2O+3Fe=Fe304/8H
 
I still don't understand how a layperson can tell a 200[SIZE=-1]° C difference between two pictures of fires...

Maybe that's just me.
[/SIZE]
 
I still don't understand how a layperson can tell a 200[SIZE=-1]° C difference between two pictures of fires...

Maybe that's just me.
[/SIZE]

Surely by now you have realized Truthers have magic eyes that can see things ordinary people can't. That's how they're able to tell the composition of a red-hot chunk of rubble just by looking at it, and that's how they always know which witnesses are telling the truth and which are lying and/or mistaken.
 
Why would it be hard to believe truthers have magic eyes? After all these are the same people who were born with the antidote to the chemtrail chemicals that keep the rest of us as zombies and do what we're told by......THEY (sinister music cue).
 
Surely by now you have realized Truthers have magic eyes that can see things ordinary people can't. That's how they're able to tell the composition of a red-hot chunk of rubble just by looking at it, and that's how they always know which witnesses are telling the truth and which are lying and/or mistaken.
They have IR eyes?
 
They have IR eyes?

Hmmm, interesting theory! And as it so happens, there is a simple way to test that theory!

Sizzler: Which of the following images appears brighter to you?

Ice1.jpg


volcano-magma.jpg
 
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Hmmm, interesting theory! And as it so happens, there is a simple way to test that theory!

Sizzler: Which of the following images appears brighter to you?

[qimg]http://teepakki.tky.fi/climb/icehome/Pictures/Fournel/Ice1.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/volcano-magma.jpg[/qimg]

Ya know this thread becomes much easier to read and follow w/out all these stupid a$$ (off topic) pictures and conjecture. I wonder why the blatantly biased mods are sitting back and not deleting this convoluted tripe?
 
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Ya know this thread becomes much easier to read and follow w/out all these stupid a$$ (off topic) pictures and conjecture. I wonder why the blatantly biased mods are sitting back and not deleting this convoluted tripe?

Frankly, be careful of what you wish for; much of your convoluted tripe would be deleted in that situation...
 
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I wonder why the blatantly biased mods are sitting back and not deleting this convoluted tripe?

Because the JREF mods are not the Pilots for Truth mods.

Please provide evidence for moderator bias. Have you and LastChild been b& yet?

Feel free to report my post if you feel there is a Membership Agreement violation in it.

Also feel free to skip over postings of "convoluted tripe" so that the precious 5 seconds it would take to read them are not wasted.

Also also feel free to place me on ignore.
 
:)Are all these engineers and architects insane? Why would they be attempting to establish the truth about how WTC 7 actually collapsed? It seems pretty clear, based on these facts and expert testimony that WTC was an inside job.
Yes yes they are. As Kari Byron once said,"It just goes to show that idiots are found even in the highest of positions." Though in this case they aren't that influential.
 
Ya know this thread becomes much easier to read and follow w/out all these stupid a$$ (off topic) pictures and conjecture. I wonder why the blatantly biased mods are sitting back and not deleting this convoluted tripe?


This tripe as you call it is simply in response to Sizzlers statement

We can compare other office fires that have a known temperatures.

WTC7 was not an unusual fire.

I've seen other steel framed highrise fires that actually looked hotter estimated to be 800C.

Isn't it valid to ask first how you can tell just by looking and secondly what other fire is he talking about where the temps were 800 degrees C.

I would think these pictures are merely there to suggest maybe you cannot tell just by looking.
 
Ya know this thread becomes much easier to read and follow w/out all these stupid a$$ (off topic) pictures and conjecture. I wonder why the blatantly biased mods are sitting back and not deleting this convoluted tripe?
Bolding mine.

While we're waiting for you to explain which rules these members violated, perhaps you could explain why you felt it necessary to violate Rule #10 of the membership agreement?

Membership Agreement said:
You will not swear in your posts. This includes using swear words in a disguised form, for example, by replacing certain letters in the word with another letter, character, or image.
 
Thanks for your input Myriad. You did help me out.

I have a few more basic questions if you don't mind.

In an insulated environment, such as the WTC rubble piles, a core temperature of 1000C is not out of the ordinary.

How would we be able to determine what temperature would be out of the ordinary?

For example, if I said 1500C was reached, would that seem odd or not out of the ordinary?

I'm just trying to get a feel for the temperature range the WTC rubble piles may have reasonably experienced.

Crazy Chainsaw;

Thanks for your input too. I'm wondering if the source of sulfur has been determined via experimentation and reported in a journal article. Do you know of any?
 

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