The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

Last edited:
DOC said:
Well, I haven't really had time to analyze properly the complicated prophecies in your previous post. But since you seem to have the time maybe you can take a stab at these 60 fulfilled Prophecies.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt....read/thread/daa80613c57d4004/6961bccbd43f70aa
Click to expand...

Quite easy. Each one is stabbed to death with the same knife. Every single one of those prophecies is made and "fulfilled" in the same book! Calling those "fulfilled prophecies" is no more sensible than saying that the prophecies of Harry Potter were fulfilled (e.g., he would slay Voldemort.)

So those are "fulfilled prophecies" only if you already believe the bible is true. Well I'm sure that's enough for you, DOC, and your band of bible-besotted believers, but for those of us who want a prophecy to be observable and objective, not just written into a book of historical fiction, it doesn't quite pass the mustard.

So when you can show us clear, unambiguous examples of things that the bible predicted that occur AFTER the time the bible was written, then maybe you'll have a leg to stand on, though I expect any examples you provide would be highly open to interpretation.
 
DOC said:
Originally Posted by DOC
So when Thomas Jefferson says this about the sayings of Jesus he took the time to cut out of the Bible:

"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen"
Click to expand...

Saying the ethics are beatiful and following them are two different things.
Click to expand...

Yes. You are right: they are are two different things. I still maintain that a slave owner and a rapist (having sex with slaves who cannot consent is considered rape) is not qualified to judge which system of ethics is the most beautiful or precious.

Even Christ said not everyone who has my name on their lips has me in their heart.
Click to expand...

You bested me there - you have found a Bible quote I was not aware of. Will you please provide me with the chapter and verse? I am interested in learning more about the Bible.

And to Jefferson's and Washington's defense, if you inherited many slaves at age 14 like Jefferson and at age 10 like Washington you'd probably be a slave owner too. Washington did eventually will his slaves to be released.
Click to expand...

I am not sure why Washington has been brought into this argument, so let's just focus on Jefferson. My response to your assertion: WTF?! Because he was doing it from age 14 until his death, we should cut him slack for owning human beings? I don't care what age he started at, someone who spent his entire adult life owning human beings is not qualified to judge which system of ethics is the most beautiful or precious. The fact that you are willing to overlook his owning human beings in order to make an appeal to authority in your arguments in favor of Christianity simply shows how narrow-minded your world views are.
 
I wrote this in another thread, but thought it applied here too.

Maybe DOC would care to address it.. That is, if I've proven my credibility.

Please read the following two parallel arguments (one in red, one in blue) and tell me why they aren't completely identical:

I have no reason to doubt that Jesus existed, it does me no harm to make this assumption.

I have no reason to doubt that Achilles existed, it does me no harm to make this assumption.

I know that philosophers exist and preached ways to live to make ourselves better.

I know that soldiers exist, some of whom did mirraculous actions of bravery and self-sacrifice and would be considered heros.

It seems reasonable to think that there was such a person known as Jesus who taught progressive ways to live that would improve and enrich people's lives.

It seems reasonable to think that there was a person known as Achilles who was a soldier and did brave heroic actions and was a fierce leader in battle.

I know that stories upon retelling can be exaggerated.
I know that stories about real people can be fabricated to add a sense of goodness about them. To illustrate ideals by which we are to live by. George Washington and the Cherry tree is perfect example of this.

There is no evidence out side the bible(the story of jesus) which supports his divinity.

There is no evidence outside of mythology to give support to Achilles' near-invincibility.

As such, it seems perfectly reasonable that the stories of Jesus' divinty are greatly exaggerated or fabricated to give support or power to the teachings he made.

As such, it seems perfectly reasonable that the stories of Achilles being dipped in the river styx and being invincible are greatly exaggerated or fabricated to make even more impressive the actions he did.

This doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't real or that his teachings aren't valuable.

This doesn't mean that Achilles wasn't real or that his heroics weren't impressive.

Simply that I have no reason to believe Jesus was the son of god.

Simply that I have no reason to believe Achilles was a near-invincible warrior with a flaw in the heal of his devine armor.
 
DOC said:
And to Jefferson's and Washington's defense, if you inherited many slaves at age 14 like Jefferson and at age 10 like Washington you'd probably be a slave owner too. Washington did eventually will his slaves to be released.
Click to expand...

Yep, he let them go when he had no more use for them.
 
DOC said:
So according to you Isaac Newton wasted a lot of time and energy analyzing and believing Daniels prophecies because he couldn't figure out they were only a moral tale.
Click to expand...
Yes.

He also wasted a lot of time and energy "fermenting" mercury, because he couldn't figure out that alchemy was a scientific dead end. Mere chemists, abandoning magic and miracles, and analyzing matter with logic and rigor, did more to advance our understanding of the universe than all of Newton's work with furnaces and crucibles.
 
DOC said:
The result of all this is an incredibly accurate New Testament text. John Wenham asks why it is that, in spite of the "great diversity" in our copies, the texts are still relativity homogeneous. He responds, "The only satisfactory answer seems to be that its homogeneity stems from an exceedingly early text-virtually, that is, from the autographs."5 The resulting text is 99.99 percent accurate, and the remaining questions do not affect any area of cardinal Christian doctrine."
Click to expand...

Matthew 28
1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow.
4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that he seek Jesus, which was crucified.

Mark 16
1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away; for it was very great.
5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment, and they were affrighted.
6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Luke 24
1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold two men stood by them in shining garments:
5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?

John 20
1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came ot the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
(he finds Jesus' clothes, Simon Peter catches up and sees the same)
10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

Now, let's stop and think for a minute. Never mind that this is actually Monday morning, not Easter Sunday.

The accounts disagree on who comes to the sepulchre.

Matthew says two Marys. Mark says two Marys and Salome. Luke 24:10 says two Marys, Joanna, and other women that were with them. John says Mary Magdalene all by herself.

Matthew mentions an earthquake that scares the guards away. Nobody else mentions guards or earthquakes.

Matthew says there was an angel sitting outside the tomb. Mark says there was a man sitting inside. Luke says there were two men inside, but nobody noticed them at first. John says nobody was there at first, until the disciples (who are not part of the other three accounts) came and went, at which point there were two angels inside.

So, was it one man? Two men? One angel? Two angels? Inside? Outside? Take your pick. Even assuming one of them is true, and even with the benefit of hindsight, the Bible couldn't rise above 25% accuracy with four mutually-exclusive accounts.

I predict that the next President of the United States will be a man or a woman, and either white or black. With over 300 million people in this country, what are the odds that I'd accurately predict the winner?

DOC, you've outdone yourself. This thread really puts the "pathetic" in "hypothetical."
 
DOC said:
Well, I haven't really had time to analyze properly the complicated prophecies in your previous post. But since you seem to have the time maybe you can take a stab at these 60 fulfilled Prophecies.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt....read/thread/daa80613c57d4004/6961bccbd43f70aa
Click to expand...
What did I tell you about posting a link to a collection of stupid prophecies? I could just as easily post a link to a site with a list debunking every last one of them. You completely avoided responding to what I said, and have only demonstrated that you seem to prefer it when all the thinking is already done for you. I asked you to bring up the prophecies you believe are the most convincing, and there's a reason for that. I seriously doubt you've analyzed every last prophecy in as much depth as you'd like us to believe, or even read and studied the bible in the first place.

Give me the prophecies that are most convincing to you, and explain them in your own words. Don't just shove a copy-paste in my face.

Oh yeah, and--
DOC said:
Absolutely no bearing whatsoever on his supposed miracles and god status??

For argument sake, if there was a Son of God who performed miracles and was raised from the dead, would he more likely to be the best ethical teacher of all time or just a good Jew who followed the accepted Jewish laws of the Day.
Click to expand...
Ancient era philosophers such as Socrates or Confucius were great moral teachers of their time, similar in many respects to Jesus and even rivaling him in many ways, yet they did not make any claims to divinity. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. There have been plenty of great moral teachers who were not turned into prophets or gods, and there have been miracle working prophets who were sick sadistic bastards.
 
Tricky said:
Quite easy. Each one is stabbed to death with the same knife. Every single one of those prophecies is made and "fulfilled" in the same book! Calling those "fulfilled prophecies" is no more sensible than saying that the prophecies of Harry Potter were fulfilled (e.g., he would slay Voldemort.)

So those are "fulfilled prophecies" only if you already believe the bible is true. Well I'm sure that's enough for you, DOC, and your band of bible-besotted believers, but for those of us who want a prophecy to be observable and objective, not just written into a book of historical fiction, it doesn't quite pass the mustard. .
Click to expand...

In all fairness though, from the intellectual perspective it does cut the cheese.
 
bokonon said:
I predict that the next President of the United States will be a man or a woman, and either white or black. With over 300 million people in this country, what are the odds that I'd accurately predict the winner?
Click to expand...

So, what're you gonna do when the actual winner is found to be an Asian hermaphrodite? :D
 
bokonon said:
Now, let's stop and think for a minute. Never mind that this is actually Monday morning, not Easter Sunday.
Click to expand...

No, that one is correct. The reference is to the Jewish sabbath, i.e. Saturday. Sunday would be the first day of the week.
 
Quote of Doc
Even Christ said not everyone who has my name on their lips has me in their heart.

Ladewig said:
You bested me there - you have found a Bible quote I was not aware of. Will you please provide me with the chapter and verse? I am interested in learning more about the Bible.
Click to expand...

Oh, excuse me, Christ was not the first to say it but was obviously agreeing with the prophecy of Isaiah concerning the people honoring God with their lips only.

Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.

But Jesus did say something very similar when He said in Matthew 7;21

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
 
Silentknight said:
What did I tell you about posting a link to a collection of stupid prophecies? I could just as easily post a link to a site with a list debunking every last one of them.
Click to expand...

Could you bring in the link that debunks the 60 fulfilled prophecies mentioned.
 
bokonon said:
Matthew 28
1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow.
4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that he seek Jesus, which was crucified.

Mark 16
1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away; for it was very great.
5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment, and they were affrighted.
6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Luke 24
1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold two men stood by them in shining garments:
5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?

John 20
1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came ot the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
(he finds Jesus' clothes, Simon Peter catches up and sees the same)
10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

Now, let's stop and think for a minute. Never mind that this is actually Monday morning, not Easter Sunday.

The accounts disagree on who comes to the sepulchre.

Matthew says two Marys. Mark says two Marys and Salome. Luke 24:10 says two Marys, Joanna, and other women that were with them. John says Mary Magdalene all by herself.

Matthew mentions an earthquake that scares the guards away. Nobody else mentions guards or earthquakes.

Matthew says there was an angel sitting outside the tomb. Mark says there was a man sitting inside. Luke says there were two men inside, but nobody noticed them at first. John says nobody was there at first, until the disciples (who are not part of the other three accounts) came and went, at which point there were two angels inside.

So, was it one man? Two men? One angel? Two angels? Inside? Outside? Take your pick. Even assuming one of them is true, and even with the benefit of hindsight, the Bible couldn't rise above 25% accuracy with four mutually-exclusive accounts.

I predict that the next President of the United States will be a man or a woman, and either white or black. With over 300 million people in this country, what are the odds that I'd accurately predict the winner?

DOC, you've outdone yourself. This thread really puts the "pathetic" in "hypothetical."
Click to expand...

I'll add a little to this.

Acts 1:16Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
Click to expand...

Mathew 27:3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
6And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
7And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
8Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
9Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
10And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.
Click to expand...

-In Mathew Judas feels guilty, gives the 30 peices of silver back to the priests and hangs himself. The priests buy the field to bury strangers and that's why it is called "The field of blood". In Acts Judas himself buys a field with the 30 peices of silver and he falls and "bursts asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out". He dies in a fall. The field is then called the field of blood.

The account in acts refutes the supposed prophecy by Zecharia because Judas does not throw the money back at the priests. Not to mention the fact that Mathew says it fulfills a prophecy of Jeremiah (who makes no such prophecy at all) and nowhere does he mention Zecharia (why didn't he just go to a rabbi and say "Um excuse me Rabbi who was it that said something about 30 pieces of silver and a potter?".

Zechariah 11-10And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
11And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
12And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
Click to expand...

So which account is correct? Paul the Apostles (writer of Acts)?

Did Judas hang himself? Or did Judas die in a "headlong" fall? Before it's brought up a "headlong" fall cannot be construed as hanging yourself in any way. It says he was in the midst of his field not under, around, in, on top of or near a tree which they could easily have said if it were the case.

Did Judas keep the money and buy himself a field? Or did he "cast down" the 30 pieces of silver in the temple and fulfill Zecharia's (supposed) prophecy even though Mathew says it was fulfiling a prophecy by Jeremiah which was actually never made?

99.9% accuracy is a silly thing to claim when there are so many outright errors between the texts.
 
Last edited:
DOC said:
Could you bring in the link that debunks the 60 fulfilled prophecies mentioned.
Click to expand...
None of those are prophesies. They are made and "fulfilled" in the same book. Plus, some of them are ridiculous on the surface. Jesus was born of a virgin? Who says so? The Bible says so, and the bible says there was a prophecy that said he would be born of a virgin. That is not proof. That is restating a claim.

Get this through your head DOC. You can't use the bible to prove the bible. You can't use Das Kapital to prove Das Kapital. You can't use Mein Kamph to prove Mein Kamph. You can't use Origin of the Species to prove Origin of the Species. Proof must come external to the claim. Do you have prophesies that do that? Actually, there are a few, but the "fulfillment" part usually involves a whole lot of data-fitting. Still, I'd be interested to see how many of them you are familiar with.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom