The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

Ocelot said:
As such I must ask a question that certain Evangelists must get tired of being asked.

"How serious a sin is bearing false witness under your belief system?"

There is however one correct prophesy. Jeremiah on the Permanency of the fall of Babylon. I’d be interested in scholarly information on the probability of a city once sacked remaining desolate.
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Ocelot that was a wonderful evaluation of the claims being leveed. It seems that your quick evaluation has shown clearly that the prophecy claims made are suspect.

Unfortunately, I have reason to know that DOC will not read your response or give it any serious consideration.

DOC said:
I've told you before, after the multiple personal attacks you've made, your on the bottom of my reply list. Plus many of your posts are long and complicated and would take along time to respond to. With all the personal attacks, why bother to take the time. One day you'll understand that.

Why don't you just make your point about a "topic" and leave me out of it. I realize you probably won't do this though and I'll have to keep saying the above, but so be it.
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Red text mine. It is clear that long posts are not to DOC's Liking.
 
It’s interesting to me how Christians nitpick the extremely minor ways that Jesus was supposed to have fulfilled the prophecies, while completely neglecting the major ways that he failed them.

The messiah of the Old Testament is supposed to accomplish some very concrete things. To wit...

The moshiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).
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Source

This is to be immediately followed by the Messianic Era. (From the same source...)

All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.

In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.
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Christians, as I understand, explain that all will come to fruition in the second coming. In fact, it’s why a second coming is necessary -- because Jesus didn’t accomplish what he was supposed to the first time around.

But of course, that lack of accomplishment -- by its very definition -- would make him not the Messiah.
 
joobz said:
So, you can either
1.) Tell me why I'm wrong using evidence
2.) Apologize to Wollery for dishonestly rebuking him knowing full well he was correct.
3.) Do neither of those things and simply be a dishonest, unscrupulous person.

I would hope you do not choose to do option 3.
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I have a large stack of chips I'd like to bet on option 3. Is there a house limit?
 
Originally Posted by DOC (words of Hugh Ross Phd.)

(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)*


aggle-rithm said:
Teensy problem -- there was no prophet Daniel. The book of Daniel was written many years later, during the time of Judah Macabee (sp?), when the Greeks controlled Palestine. The story was intended as a moral tale about keeping the faith while living under foreign rule.
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Source??

So according to you Isaac Newton wasted a lot of time and energy analyzing and believing Daniels prophecies because he couldn't figure out they were only a moral tale.

And are you saying a story that was a moral tale proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26), and it would be accurate by coincidence.
 
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DOC said:
So according to you Isaac Newton wasted a lot of time and energy analyzing and believing Daniels prophecies because he couldn't figure out they were only a moral tale.
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I have no knowledge about the historical reality of Daniel, but I'll go out on a limb and say "yes, Newton wasted a lot of time and energy."


DOC said:
And are you saying a story that was a moral tale proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26), and it would be accurate by coincidence.
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Oh, I'm sure it was accurate by design, and after the fact.
 
aggle-rithm said:
Roman bureaucrat: Listen up, everyone, we're going to have a census...does anyone here have a famous ancestor...? You, there, what's your name? Joseph? And your famous ancestor was....David? Never heard of him. Where's he from....? Bethlehem? No, no, I don't need any documentation. We Romans are pretty laid back, we don't care about procedure. Just go to...what was it? Bethlehem? To be counted. And take any pregnant women you might be planning to marry later.
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I'm not sure what all the above means

but actually it would be of great advantage to the Romans to have everyone return to the city of their lineage for tax purposes.

If the person did not pay the tax the Romans would have justification to take the tax from family members who they now know.

If the Romans knew who all you family members were you would be less likely to cause trouble because now they could kill all your family as well as you if caused any trouble.

Just postulating a little like you were.
 
DOC said:
And are you saying a story that was a moral tale proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26), and it would be accurate by coincidence.
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Let's just compare that summary with your preferred KJV, and marvel at the accuracy again:
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
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What could be plainer than seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks, means 483 years?
 
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DOC said:
I'm not sure what all the above means

but actually it would be of great advantage to the Romans to have everyone return to the city of their lineage for tax purposes.

If the person did not pay the tax the Romans would have justification to take the tax from family members who they now know.

If the Romans knew who all you family members were you would be less likely to cause trouble because now they could kill all your family as well as you if caused any trouble.

Just postulating a little like you were.
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How would knowing where your ancestors come from help the Romans get your taxes from your familly? Just because your ancestor and my ancestor came from the same town doesn't mean we're familly. Why should I be required to pay your taxes because we have a single ancestral link?

Also what about the 30 pieces of silver thing I commented on and how it couldn't have occured the way it was written? Or the 2 completely different accounts of Judas untimely end(one of which violates your supposed 'prophecy')? Also what about the fact King Herod died 10 years before Quirinius was appointed governor of Syria (and thus 10 years before the birth of Jesus)?
 
DOC said:
I'm not sure what all the above means

but actually it would be of great advantage to the Romans to have everyone return to the city of their lineage for tax purposes.

If the person did not pay the tax the Romans would have justification to take the tax from family members who they now know.

If the Romans knew who all you family members were you would be less likely to cause trouble because now they could kill all your family as well as you if caused any trouble.

Just postulating a little like you were.
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Surely only relevant if the family were still there. In Joseph's case he c;early knew no one in Bethlehem hence the stable.

The Romans did a lot of census taking is there any other record of them making people return to their ancestor's town of origin?
 
DOC said:
"God is not the only one, however, who uses forecasts of future events to get people's attention. Satan does, too. Through clairvoyants (such as Jeanne Dixon and Edgar Cayce), mediums, spiritists, and others, come remarkable predictions, though rarely with more than about 60 percent accuracy, never with total accuracy. Messages from Satan, furthermore, fail to match the detail of Bible prophecies, nor do they include a call to repentance."
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Oh great, now we're mixing our woo. Not only are psychic powers real, but they are the result of diabolic intervention? Why do I get the feeling that DOC believes that black magic is real too and you cast hexes and curses from the Dungeon & Dragon's Player Handbook?

DOC, do you realize just how moronic you sound? Honestly, do you stop and consider what the hell you've written before you click on the "Submit Reply" icon? Do you really believe this crap, or are you really just a another pathetic troll how gets his kicks out of harassing people online.

Either way, believer or troll, you sicken me. You make me embarrassed to be a member of the species Homo sapiens sapiens.
 
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joobz said:
Now, in this new thread, you use the exact same discounted quote. There exists an outstanding challenge that you have failed to addresss.
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Your the one who originally brought Thomas Arnold's name into this thread not me. I was just responding to your post where you used his name. If you don't want people to use his quote don't bring in his name. In case someone is wondering what the quote is, it is in this post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3337739#post3337739

The Thomas Arnold quote is what it is, a generally accepted quote by a famous Oxford historian. I sourced the quote from a published book not a website. Nowhere has it been shown that he did not make that quote.

And I did address the issue of the evidence in this post.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3337802#post3337802
 
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DOC said:
Your the one who originally brought Thomas Arnold's name into this thread not me. I was just responding to your post where you used his name. If you don't want people to use his quote don't bring in his name.

The Thomas Arnold quote is what it is, a generally accepted quote by a famous Oxford historian. I sourced the quote from a published book not a website. Nowhere has it been shown that he did not make that quote.

And I did address the issue of the evidence in this post.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3337802#post3337802
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And that post basically admits that you do not have any evidence from him. I do not see how this helps your case at all.
 
Hokulele said:
And that post basically admits that you do not have any evidence from him. I do not see how this helps your case at all.
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I respect opinions of Oxford historians who write 3 volume works (partially) about the time Jesus existed and about the empire that controlled the land Jesus lived in. If you don't respect that opinion that's your right.
 
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While there is nothing wrong with Arnold - a good man by all accounts - a great deal of additional information has been unearthed in the last 180 odd years. It is worth perhaps looking at more recent works as well as Arnold.
 
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