The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

[Akhenaten]

Oh, I certainly believe people die for false causes and wrong causes but I also believe they die for truthful causes - for example check out Wiki's Christian Martyrs article

So basically the Big Revelation here is that you believe people die for causes? That might be the only thing you believe that's true, however, how do you claim to tell the difference between false, wrong and truthful causes?

Are the WIki's Christian Martyrs affiliated with the Palestinian Peoples' Front, btw?

 

[DOC]

I would agree that there is nothing wrong with using Arnold but one has to remember that a great deal of documentation has been unearthed since Arnold undertook his studies. The history of Rome did not stop with Arnold or Gibbon. Consequently, if one is going to be academically rigorous in this, Arnold's conclusions should be evaluated against other work.

Yes, and from what I understand new archaeological finds actually help support the Bible.

 

[Nogbad]

In the above quote by Arnold he says this:

"I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."


I'm just postulating here but I would have to believe that part of the reason for his belief would be the following I mentioned in another post:

Here is a little info about the New Testament manuscripts in existence:

From the article: Why I Believe The New Testament Is Historically Reliable by Gary Habermas

"...significant portions of some ancient works are missing. For example, 107 of Livy's 142 books of Roman history have been lost. Of Tacitus's original Histories and Annals, only approximately half remain.

The fact that there is outstanding manuscript evidence for the New Testament documents is even admitted by critical scholars.2 John A.T. Robinson succinctly explains, "The wealth of manuscripts, and above all the narrow interval of time between the writing and the earliest extant copies, make it by far the best attested text of any ancient writing in the world...

...The result of all this is an incredibly accurate New Testament text. John Wenham asks why it is that, in spite of the "great diversity" in our copies, the texts are still relativity homogeneous. He responds, "The only satisfactory answer seems to be that its homogeneity stems from an exceedingly early text-virtually, that is, from the autographs."5 The resulting text is 99.99 percent accurate, and the remaining questions do not affect any area of cardinal Christian doctrine."

http://www.apologetics.com/default.j...bermas-nt.html


Also there are over 5000 manuscripts of the original Gospels whereas the average number is 8-10 manuscripts for other ancient writings.

Robinson was an Anglican Bishop and therefore it is questionable how critical you would class a Bishop (although his very liberal stance would no doubt have some spitting feathers).

Wenhem also is an interesting character, I quote "I believe that endless torment is a hideous and unscriptural doctrine which as been a terrible burden on the mind of the church for many centuries and a terrible blot on her presentation of the Gospel. I should indeed be happy, if before I die, I could help in sweeping it away."

 

[joobz]

I've never used this quote ---[snip] as a source for anything. So your talk about dishonesty is a joke.

Ah, so you never posted it????
wait for it...

I just find it very interesting coming from a distinguished historian who died in 1842. I have the right to put any quotes I want in my threads and if you don't like it you can stop coming into my threads.

There it is!

Self contradiction in three sentences. So which is it?
You never used the quote or you have the right to put any quotes up you want?

I noticed in none of those points, did you ever counter my argument, that your quote is the ultimate act of dishonesty.

I also seem to remember you saying "interesting" when you first read it in another thread. So one can argue that's it hypocritical for you to complain about the quote now.

ONe could argue that. But then, that would make one a terrible fool considering my position has been clearly stated several times:

Not once, in any of these posts have you actually presented ANY OF THE EVIDENCE that Thomas Arnold claims is so convincing. Knowing you, you would have presented it if it existed. The fact that you fail to do so is clear enough admission to me that you do not have such evidence and neither did Thomas Arnold.

The bolded section says it all.

 

[joobz]

Yes, and from what I understand new archaeological finds actually help support the Bible.

really? such as?

 

[Tricky]

really? such as?

I'm guessing he means that some of the places mentioned in the Bible actually exist.

This just off the presses! Tornados have been found to exist in Kansas. This supports "The Wizard of Oz".

 

[joobz]

I'm guessing he means that some of the places mentioned in the Bible actually exist.

This just off the presses! Tornados have been found to exist in Kansas. This supports "The Wizard of Oz".

And there is a Kansas! wow, it seems the evidence is mounting up.

 

[Lothian]

And there is a Kansas! wow, it seems the evidence is mounting up.

Tricky's claim that the Wizard of Oz is true was made a mere 70 years after the events. With life expectancies reaching over 100 it is inconceivable that he did not get the information from actual witnesses to the events or the children of actual witnesses.

 

[joobz]

Tricky's claim that the Wizard of Oz is true was made a mere 70 years after the events. With life expectancies reaching over 100 it is inconceivable that he did not get the information from actual witnesses to the events or the children of actual witnesses.

Exactly,
and we can be certain that Dorothy's house did fall on the wicked witch because there were many witnesses who saw this event.

 

[Lothian]

Exactly,
and we can be certain that Dorothy's house did fall on the wicked witch because there were many witnesses who saw this event.

We also know the events are true as the existence of the lion, the tin man & the scarecrow have been mentioned in many other contemporary accounts of the time.

You however need to realise that the Wizard of Oz was written for unsophisticated people and therefore the terms can not be literally interpreted using modern meanings.

It is clear that to people in the 1930’s a scarecrow was a fright figure similar to a witch and the Tinman an empty receptacle is clearly an euphemism for a wardrobe.

 

[joobz]

We also know the events are true as the existence of the lion, the tin man & the scarecrow have been mentioned in many other contemporary accounts of the time.

You however need to realise that the Wizard of Oz was written for unsophisticated people and therefore the terms can not be literally interpreted using modern meanings.

It is clear that to people in the 1930’s a scarecrow was a fright figure similar to a witch and the Tinman an empty receptacle is clearly an euphemism for a wardrobe.

That's very interesting. As you've pointed out, the wizard of oz, really seems to be a single book (gospel if you will) which would be incomplete without an entire canon.

I am certain that any book that has had strong influence in our culture is divinely inspired. Otherwise, why would it have been so powerful in it's influence?

Perhaps we should hold some council and assemble all works of literary import to determine
1.) which books teach the true word and are not heretical
2.) which volumes contain consistent imagery (further indication of thier divinity)

 

[zooterkin]

That's very interesting. As you've pointed out, the wizard of oz, really seems to be a single book (gospel if you will) which would be incomplete without an entire canon.

Far from it.

 

[Ocelot]

The Good wich Glenda told Dorothy that she would Find the wizard of Oz in by following a yellow road to the north. This prophesy was fullfilled.

Probability of chance fullfillment one in 1 with squillion and two noughts after it.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I'd continue tapping my foot with impatience regarding DOCs unwillingness to address the TF, Tacitus, Seutonius or why the Jews don't consider Jesus to have fulfiled Messianic prophecy, but my leg is getting tired, so I'll address this....

Yes, and from what I understand new archaeological finds actually help support the Bible.

And your understanding, much like your claims about "ACLU lawyer" Leo Pfeffer would be wrong. What some archaeological findings are supporting are the mundane claims of the Bible and most of them are tenuous at best. None of them are supporting the supernatural claims and there was even an article in Ha'aretz a few years ago, by a Jewish professor, suggesting that most of the Old Testment stories were, if not embellished, outright fabrications - especially the kingdom of David and Solomon.

Pathetic claims like the mention of the Hittites in the OT, which could easily have been verified from Egyptian heiroglyphs, had it not taken Champoileon (sic) discovering the Rosetta Stone, was bogus before the unearthign of Hattusas in the late 1800s, had to wait until later archaeological discoveries.

If stuff like that is all you have to hang your faith or your apologetical mission on, you'd better be prepared for a big change in Weltanschauung whenever you finally decide to stop gloming on to what Ron Wyatt, Jay Sekulow, Thomas Arnold and D. James Kennedy lie about.

 

[Abe_the_Man]

People will die for what they believe in - right or wrong. Therefore the fact that Christians were prepared to be martyred is not in itself confirmation that they were right - merely that they believed they were right. The two are quite separate.

I would agree that Paul existed and one could make a convincing case that most of what we consider to be Christian doctrine is in fact Paulianity rather than Christianity. The teachings of Jesus were simple and essentially quite Jewish. A matter of continual friction between Paul and the other Apostles.

According to the New Testament the apostle Paul, before his conversion on the way to Damascus, was called Saul of Tarsus. Now Cilicia (of which Tarsus was the capitol) became a hub for Mithraism starting about 66 BC and worship of Mithras continued untill the fall of the roman empire.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mom/mom04.htm


Now a little about Mithras

Mithras was said to have been sent by a father-god to vanquish darkness and evil in the world. Born of a virgin (a birth witnessed only by shepherds), Mithras was described variously as the Way, the Truth, the Light, the Word, the Son of God, and the Good Shepherd and was often depicted carrying a lamb upon his shoulders. Followers of Mithras celebrated December 25th (the winter solstice) by ringing bells, singing hymns, lighting candles, giving gifts, and administering a sacrament of bread and water. Between December 25th and the spring equinox (Easter, from the Latin for earth goddess) came the 40 days' search for Osiris, a god of justice and love. The cult also observed Black Friday, commemorating Mithras' sacrificial bull-slaying which fructified the earth. Worn out by the battle, Mithras is symbolically represented as a corpse and is placed in a sacred rock tomb from which he is removed after three days in a festival of rejoicing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism#Similarities_to_Christianity

So here we have an incredible similarity to Christianity. Here's a breakdown of all the similarities.

1. Both Mithras and Christ were portrayed as young and beardless; both sometimes appeared in the shepherd's role, and both saved mankind by performing sacrifical deeds.

2. Both Mithras and Christ had virgin births in the sense that they were conceived without any sexual union between man and woman. Christ's father was said to be God, while Mithras was said to have had no father or mother, having emerged as an adult from a large rock.

3. Both Mithraism and Christianity celebrated the birth of their god on the winter solstice, the 25th of December according to the Julian calendar. Both featured the sharing of presents, the use of Christmas trees with candles, and nativity scenes that included shepherds attracted by a sacred light. The special importance of this solstice ceremony to Mithraists would be indicated by the name Mithras, which derived from Meitras, which in Greek numerology refers to the number 365, the last day of the solar year at the winter solstice.

4. Both the Old Testament and Mithraic legend told of the first human couple having been created. Mithra supposedly kept a watchful eye over their descendents until Ahriman caused a draught that caused such thirst that they begged Mithra for water.

5. Both told of a major flood, in the case of Mithra through his having shot an arrow into a stone cliff to quench mankind's thirst. Unfortunately, the entire world's population was drowned in a flood produced by the water spout that gushed from the hole his arrow produced. One man alone (a Noah figure borrowed from the earlier Sumerian myth of Atrahasis) was warned in time and could therefore save himself and his cattle in an ark.

6. Both Mithraism and Christianity emphasized mankind's redemption resulting from a sacrificial death followed by the god's ascent to heaven. In the case of Christ, it was the god himself (or his son) who was sacrificed; in the case of Mithra, it was a sacred steer that Mithra sacrificed.

7. Both featured resurrection through sacrifice. Mithraism more obviously drew upon spring equinox fertility myths by depicting Mithra's sacrificial bull with a tail that consisted of sheaves of wheat that were supposedly scattered throughout the world once it was slaughtered. Also, the bull's blood formed the milky way, allowing human souls both to be born and to return to the heavens after death.

8. Both told of a Last Supper linked with the blood sacrifice whose symbolic recreation by eating bread and wine provided salvation for all worshippers. After Mithra killed the bull depicted in Mithraic art, he feasted upon it with the Sun God and other companions before ascending to the heavens in the sun god's chariot. The sequence was slightly different in the New Testament: Christ's Last Supper necessarily preceded his crucifixion rather than following it, after which he ascended to heaven.

9. Both emphasized purification through baptism, Mithraists by washing themselves in the blood of sacrificial oxen. While dying oxen bled to death on lattice floors built over their heads, initiates both drank and washed themselves with the blood that dripped on them.

10. Both featured secret temples located underground. For Christians it was a temporary expedient to avoid persecution, but for Mithraists it became a permanent institution, each small chapel, called a Mithraeum, having seated no more than fifty worshippers and having been constructed to point from east to west. Rounded ceilings were painted blue and imbedded with gemstones. There were no windows except for a few chapels in which tiny holes in the ceiling that had been bored to let in the light of certain stars at particular times of the year.

11. Both held Sunday to be sacred.

12. Both encouraged asceticism. Mithraists were expected to resist sensuality and to abstain from eating certain foods.

13. Both emphasized charity. Mithra was identified as the god of help who protected his worshippers, whatever their tribulations in life.

14. Last and probably least, both emphasized a rock, Mithra having been born from one and the Vatican having been built on one.

http://www.edwardjayne.com/Christology/mithra.html

So is it a coincidence that Paul came from Tarsus, where the major practiced religion his whole lif preached, about the son of God, a virgin birth, the last supper and death and ressurection after three days, and he just happened to start preaching a religion featuring the son of God, a virgin birth, the last supper and death and ressurection after three days?

Remember Paul preached Christ before the Gospels were written.

Ernest Renan summarized in his 1882 The Origins of Christianity by saying "if the growth of Christianity had been arrested by some mortal malady, the world would have been Mithraic."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism#Similarities_to_Christianity

 

[joobz]

Far from it.

ah, but it seems that those other books may be heretical.

 

[Ladewig]

It is clear that to people in the 1930’s a scarecrow was a fright figure similar to a witch and the Tinman an empty receptacle is clearly an euphemism for a wardrobe.

I love how it is the scarecrow that becomes a symbol of a witch and not the witch that becomes a symbol for the witch. This ain't your first time at the Christian apologetics rodeo, is it?

 

[zooterkin]

ah, but it seems that those other books may be heretical.

Well, that would be for the council to decide.

I think great effort should be expended in gathering together as many friends of Dorothy as possible, to get to the bottom of this.

 

[Lothian]

Well, that would be for the council to decide.

I think great effort should be expended in gathering together as many friends of Dorothy as possible, to get to the bottom of this.

Are you suggesting a camp convention?

 

[Garrette]

Are you suggesting a camp convention?

This one time, at bible camp...