The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

[fuelair]

But he has to concede to recorded history right? I mean I presented all kinds of historical facts. I hope he actually read them though they were long.

I presented ACTUAL facts showing:

Joseph would not have taken place in the Census as he was from Galilee which was separate from Iudaea and Syria where the only Census during the governorship of Quirinius took place.

Herod died 10 years before Quirinius became governor of Syria and thus would not have even heard of Jesus' birth never mind tried to have him killed.

Judas couldn't possibly have been paid in 'peices of silver' as the Seleucid coinage was in use for 141 years and 'weighed peices' hadn't been used in the region for almost 300.

There are two conflicting accounts of the end of Juda. One which completely refutes any supposed prophecy (Giving back the 30 pieces of silver in one, buying a field with it in another)

Surely this should be considered? I haven't been given any info refuting it.

Pick a DUK thread - the Thomas Jefferson one runs forever. Look through the multiple debunkings of the same lies, misinterpretations, misapplications of DUC's rubbish and the way he brings it back up like thrice vomited fish dinner to putrefy in front of us over and over. Thee wasteth thy time and wasteth it for naught but to try to bring down a tissue of lies and a teller of untruths.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

The Messiah has not come yet.
Not about the Messiah.

I'm sure DOCs response will be something about "ACLU lawyer" Leo Pfeffer or Thomas Arnold (again) and not an actual response to what's on these entries.

He'll pull the lever on his Lies for Jesus See 'n Say, the arrow will spin, and he'll post something randomly... maybe "Thomas Jefferson went to church, so Jeebus is real!!" Then he'll drool a little bit and his mommy will put him down for a nap.

Your prediction was off on it's content, but spot on how he'd ignore conterveiling evidence. Kudos!

"Have you no sense of decency, Sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

If there's anything this forum has less of than Mojo Nixon references, it's Army-McCarthy hearings... and to answer the question neither Tailgunner Joe would or DOC will.. no, they don't.

Ryan O'Dine, it's interesting that on another forum long ago a Jewish poster commented that Rabbi Akiva canted prayers while being crucified while Jesus is represented as calling out asking why God/His Father/Himself has forsaken him.

 

[GeeMack]

Tactitus, Seutonius, and Josephus, must have liked writing about imaginary people. And are you saying 11 of the 12 apostles died horrible deaths for an imaginary person. And are you saying Peter (who denied Christ 3 times) went to Rome to preach and Doubting Thomas went to India to preach for an imaginary person.

You're here preaching for an imaginary being, DOC. Any reason to think Peter or Thomas would be less likely than you to get all irrationally wrapped up in a delusion? Any reason to think they'd be less likely than you to lie to themselves and others to bolster their belief in magic, DOC? You do it. Why wouldn't they?

 

[joobz]

You're here preaching for an imaginary being, DOC. Any reason to think Peter or Thomas would be less likely than you to get all irrationally wrapped up in a delusion? Any reason to think they'd be less likely than you to lie to themselves and others to bolster their belief in magic, DOC? You do it. Why wouldn't they?

I find it really funny that DOC use appeals to authority which results in heresy.

The only reason he could make his appeals (and not have it be a logical fallacy in his mind) would be if he thought that these authorities were always right. The only way they can be always right is if they are perfect.

Since it is christian faith that only jesus is perfect, his appeal is in itself a heresy. He effectively has put false gods before god. Not something god would take all that lightly.

His only chance for forgiveness would be for him to recognize that these authorities are indeed fallible. If they are fallible, then he can no longer use this argument. Any further attempts to use it would mean
1.)He's a heretic
or
2.)He's a dishonest individual.

In either case, he would be a poor christian (By standards of christian teaching).

 

[kmortis]

Why do you have such a hard time believing that people are willing to die for false ideas. In 1997, three dozen Heaven's Gate cult members committed suicide based on a false idea. In 1978, over 900 people died in a murder-suicide event after following the false prophet Jim Jones.

The question is not rhetorical. I want to know why you have such a hard time believing that people would die for a false cause.

Yeah, and for Jim Jones we have some direct evidence.

 

[kmortis]

Your prediction was off on it's content, but spot on how he'd ignore conterveiling evidence. Kudos!

Yeah, cause that took the psychic powers of Sylvia to pull that piece of prognostication.

 

[kmortis]

His only chance for forgiveness would be for him to recognize that these authorities are indeed fallible. If they are fallible, then he can no longer use this argument. Any further attempts to use it would mean
1.)He's a heretic
or
2.)He's a dishonest individual.

In either case, he would be a poor christian (By standards of christian teaching).

False dichotomy. Why can't he be both?

 

[Ryokan]

When Christians bring up Tacitus and Josephus, I always remind them that they were both born after Jesus' supposed death. In other words, they witnessed squat - anything they wrote would be hearsay.

 

[DOC]

See, your imaginary apostles are just as real to you as real people in history, who wrote about the myth you believe in.

Surely you don't believe the apostle Peter is imaginary. You'd have a lot of historians who would disagree with you.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85633

And of course almost everyone believes in the apostle Paul. He didn't get picked as the 6th Most Influential person ever to exist in the scholarly book "The 100 - The 100 Most Influential people in history" for being a fairy tale.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

The Messiah has not come yet.
Not about the Messiah.

I'm sure DOCs response will be something about "ACLU lawyer" Leo Pfeffer or Thomas Arnold (again) and not an actual response to what's on these entries.

Taps foot...

 

[DOC]

When Christians bring up Tacitus and Josephus, I always remind them that they were both born after Jesus' supposed death. In other words, they witnessed squat - anything they wrote would be hearsay.

So your saying we should throw out almost every history book on all the colleges in America because the authors didn't witness the events they wrote about.

And no one ever witnessed the Big Bang, or the first one cell organism turn from non-life to life but that doesn't stop scientist from believing it happened.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

The TF is a fraud.
Suetonius isn't referring to Jesus.
And Tacitus is referring to Christians, not Jesus.

Joe, no one does the Gish Gallop and the ad nauseum like DOC does.

Taps foot some more...

 

[Ladewig]

And are you saying 11 of the 12 apostles died horrible deaths for an imaginary person.

Why do you have such a hard time believing that people are willing to die for false ideas? In 1997, three dozen Heaven's Gate cult members committed suicide based on a false idea. In 1978, over 900 people died in a murder-suicide event after following the false prophet Jim Jones.

The question is not rhetorical. I want to know why you have such a hard time believing that people would die horrible deaths for a false cause.

 

[DOC]

Why do you have such a hard time believing that people are willing to die for false ideas. In 1997, three dozen Heaven's Gate cult members committed suicide based on a false idea. In 1978, over 900 people died in a murder-suicide event after following the false prophet Jim Jones.

The question is not rhetorical. I want to know why you have such a hard time believing that people would die for a false cause.

Oh, I certainly believe people die for false causes and wrong causes but I also believe they die for truthful causes - for example check out Wiki's Christian Martyrs article

 

[Lothian]

So your saying we should throw out almost every history book on all the colleges in America because the authors didn't witness the events they wrote about.

And no one ever witnessed the Big Bang, or the first one cell organism turn from non-life to life but that doesn't stop scientist from believing it happened.

That is because there is independent evidence open for all to see that verifies (or doesn’t) the claims. Where is the evidence other than in the bible for the parting of the red sea, a talking snake, the dimensions of the arc, the bones of Elisha ability to reincarnate the dead, or even the existence of God.

 

[JoeEllison]

Surely you don't believe the apostle Peter is imaginary. You'd have a lot of historians who would disagree with you.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85633

And of course almost everyone believes in the apostle Paul. He didn't get picked as the 6th Most Influential person ever to exist in the scholarly book "The 100 - The 100 Most Influential people in history" for being a fairy tale.

Was Paul one of the 12 apostles who met the fairy tale Jesus? No? Then why would you bring him up? Oh, yeah... because you're openly and proudly dishonest.

 

[Nogbad]

Oh, I certainly believe people die for false causes and wrong causes but I also believe they die for truthful causes - for example check out Wiki's Christian Martyrs article

People will die for what they believe in - right or wrong. Therefore the fact that Christians were prepared to be martyred is not in itself confirmation that they were right - merely that they believed they were right. The two are quite separate.

I would agree that Paul existed and one could make a convincing case that most of what we consider to be Christian doctrine is in fact Paulianity rather than Christianity. The teachings of Jesus were simple and essentially quite Jewish. A matter of continual friction between Paul and the other Apostles.

 

[DOC]

I know you don't like long posts, so I'll keep this short:
Using Thomas Arnold as a reliable source is a dishonest act.

I've proven him unreliable, see above post for more details. The facts are available to you in this thread.

Please stop posting false/missleading information. It makes you look bad.

I've never used this quote ---

"Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through [the evidence for the resurrection] piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up on a most important cause. I have myself done it many times over, not to persuade others but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."

Source: Thomas Arnold, as cited in Wilbur Smith's "Therefore Stand" (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1945), 425-26


--- by Oxford Professor Thomas Arnold (author of the 3 volume History of Rome) as a source for anything. So your talk about dishonesty is a joke.

I just find it very interesting coming from a distinguished historian who died in 1842. I have the right to put any quotes I want in my threads and if you don't like it you can stop coming into my threads.

I also seem to remember you saying "interesting" when you first read it in another thread. So one can argue that's it hypocritical for you to complain about the quote now. Don't you think that new people to the threads might find it interesting also as you once did.

 

[Nogbad]

I would agree that there is nothing wrong with using Arnold but one has to remember that a great deal of documentation has been unearthed since Arnold undertook his studies. The history of Rome did not stop with Arnold or Gibbon. Consequently, if one is going to be academically rigorous in this, Arnold's conclusions should be evaluated against other work.

 

[DOC]

In the above quote by Arnold he says this:

"I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."


I'm just postulating here but I would have to believe that part of the reason for his belief would be the following I mentioned in another post:

Here is a little info about the New Testament manuscripts in existence:

From the article: Why I Believe The New Testament Is Historically Reliable by Gary Habermas

"...significant portions of some ancient works are missing. For example, 107 of Livy's 142 books of Roman history have been lost. Of Tacitus's original Histories and Annals, only approximately half remain.

The fact that there is outstanding manuscript evidence for the New Testament documents is even admitted by critical scholars.2 John A.T. Robinson succinctly explains, "The wealth of manuscripts, and above all the narrow interval of time between the writing and the earliest extant copies, make it by far the best attested text of any ancient writing in the world...

...The result of all this is an incredibly accurate New Testament text. John Wenham asks why it is that, in spite of the "great diversity" in our copies, the texts are still relativity homogeneous. He responds, "The only satisfactory answer seems to be that its homogeneity stems from an exceedingly early text-virtually, that is, from the autographs."5 The resulting text is 99.99 percent accurate, and the remaining questions do not affect any area of cardinal Christian doctrine."

http://www.apologetics.com/default.j...bermas-nt.html


Also there are over 5000 manuscripts of the original Gospels whereas the average number is 8-10 manuscripts for other ancient writings.