Do you have a source for this. And actually Luke said it was a decree for taxation.
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The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy
- Thread starter DOC
- Start date
Do you have a source for this. And actually Luke said it was a decree for taxation.
quixotecoyote
Howling to glory I go
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Can I show evidence that no records exist anywhere? Do you even understand the logic error there, DOC?
Well, I could appeal to authority, as you are wont to do, but that would be pointless. You'd just refuse to believe them.
Instead, show me a roman record of a census requiring all residents to return to their place of birth. You can't because it doesn't exist.
Instead, show me a historical record verifying this census. You can't because it doesn't exist.
You claim it does exist. Support your claim.
Well, I could appeal to authority, as you are wont to do, but that would be pointless. You'd just refuse to believe them.
Instead, show me a roman record of a census requiring all residents to return to their place of birth. You can't because it doesn't exist.
Instead, show me a historical record verifying this census. You can't because it doesn't exist.
You claim it does exist. Support your claim.
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It's even more stupid than that. It wasn't back to where they were born. Joseph and Mary had to go, according to the bible, to enter the census in Betlehem because that's where David, Joseph's ancestor, was born.
So, Caesar Augustus, according to the bible, decreed that everyone should be entered into the census not where they lived, not where they were born, but at the birthplace of their greatest ancestral hero. I bet there was much confusion throughout the empire that year.
Anyone who doesn't question this story must be a complete git.
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Well, actually... Caesar Augustus was known for initiating an empire wide census. It's mentioned here, for example. Can't be bothered to find a non-Wikipedia link.
But I really doubt it was done the way the bible mentions. Why would the Romans even care a tiny bit where David, Joseph's ancestor, was born?
Originally Posted by DOC
Actually Luke (the physician), who many say was a first rate historian...
I'm not sure if the famous Oxford historian, Thomas Arnold, who wrote the 3 volume "History of Rome" said that about Luke, but in case anyone didn't read this in the forum he did say this:
Quote by Thomas Arnold:
"Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through [the evidence for the resurrection] piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up on a most important cause. I have myself done it many times over, not to persuade others but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."
Source: Thomas Arnold, as cited in Wilbur Smith's "Therefore Stand" (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1945), 425-26
Actually Luke (the physician), who many say was a first rate historian...
I'm not sure if the famous Oxford historian, Thomas Arnold, who wrote the 3 volume "History of Rome" said that about Luke, but in case anyone didn't read this in the forum he did say this:
Quote by Thomas Arnold:
"Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through [the evidence for the resurrection] piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up on a most important cause. I have myself done it many times over, not to persuade others but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."
Source: Thomas Arnold, as cited in Wilbur Smith's "Therefore Stand" (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1945), 425-26
quixotecoyote
Howling to glory I go
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Do you have any sources. It seems this is all speculation, although it is your right to speculate.
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
Please provide a concise list of the evidence Arnold found so compelling. Just his statement alone is worth nothing.
Yes, I see that now. Sorry.
Source for what? That Joseph had to go to the city of David for the census? It's Luke 2:1-4.
Luke 2:4 - So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family line of David.
What speculation are you talking about?
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Hawk one
Emperor of the Internet
The Flying Spagetti Monster's Journal, chapter 23, verse 4-5:
And the Noodly Appendages Touched Me and the Flying Spagetti Monster told me "Ye of little faith but much rational thinking instead, go forth and make a song about the Troll that just won't stop lying."
And the Flying Spagetti Monster promised me a nice pizza for the trouble, and after negotating a gelano dessert, I accepted the humble task.
Lies For Jesus
(Mel: Moonlight Shadow)
Every time that ever we saw him
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
Every time, he'd show up as a warning
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
Losing the arguments every night
Far away on the other side
He would hope that the heathens would see the light
But he couldn't find how to push through
As the fundie whispers in the evening
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
He will cause annoyance and grieving
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
All he saw was a silhouette of a cross
Far away on the other side
And he failed to imagine that his "arguments" lost
But he couldn't find how to push through
But he'll stay
And he'll pray
That we'll all believe him, some day
He stays
We "pray"
That he may turn honest one day
As he posts until it's early morning
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
With his lies, repetitive and boring
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
And we asked him to prove himself every night
Far away on the other side
But his evidence was never even slightest in sight
And he couldn't find how to push through
But he'll stay
And he'll pray
That we'll all believe him, some day
He stays
We "pray"
That he may turn honest one day
[two guitar solos, fade out]
And the Noodly Appendages Touched Me and the Flying Spagetti Monster told me "Ye of little faith but much rational thinking instead, go forth and make a song about the Troll that just won't stop lying."
And the Flying Spagetti Monster promised me a nice pizza for the trouble, and after negotating a gelano dessert, I accepted the humble task.
Lies For Jesus
(Mel: Moonlight Shadow)
Every time that ever we saw him
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
Every time, he'd show up as a warning
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
Losing the arguments every night
Far away on the other side
He would hope that the heathens would see the light
But he couldn't find how to push through
As the fundie whispers in the evening
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
He will cause annoyance and grieving
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
All he saw was a silhouette of a cross
Far away on the other side
And he failed to imagine that his "arguments" lost
But he couldn't find how to push through
But he'll stay
And he'll pray
That we'll all believe him, some day
He stays
We "pray"
That he may turn honest one day
As he posts until it's early morning
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
With his lies, repetitive and boring
Carried away, by the Lies For Jesus
And we asked him to prove himself every night
Far away on the other side
But his evidence was never even slightest in sight
And he couldn't find how to push through
But he'll stay
And he'll pray
That we'll all believe him, some day
He stays
We "pray"
That he may turn honest one day
[two guitar solos, fade out]
Remember he said the above about 1840 when there were hardly any atheists. I'm not sure he took the time to write it out. Remember he was extremely busy writing the 3 volume "History of Rome" which he never did finish because he died of a heart attack. He was a historian not an apologist.
Its kind of like when Einstein said "without Isaac Newton's work my work would have been impossible" I'm not sure Einstein ever actually gave a concise list of what Newton's work he was talking about.
The speculation or opinion that you have to be stupid to believe that the rulers of the day would send you to the city of your lineage for a census or taxation.
Well, do you believe that happened? Everyone and their uncle throughout the Roman Empire was ordered to the birthplace of their most famous ancestor? I mean, come one. There was, what, 26 generations from David to Joseph? Joseph was lucky to have such a famous ancestor, how did everyone else know where to go?
I mean, if your country ever held such a census, what city would you go to?
An empire wide census was a breath taking thing to do under any circumstance. If this was how Caesar Augustus held his census, I'm sure all the local pundits all over the empire would write about it.
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Abe_the_Man
Thinker
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Oh my. The last thing you should have brought up was the census.
*All biblical citations are from the New International Version at www.biblegateway.com
**Sources will be linked to at the end of this post
Let’s break this down into its main claims:
1. Ceasar Augustus declared that ALL of the roman world should be counted
2. This is the first Census while Quirinius was governor of Syria
3. Everyone was required to go to "his town" to register. Joseph is of the House of David and therefore required to go to Bethlehem as it is the home of David. This indicates the census was conducted based on Jewish tribal affiliation.
4. Joseph is from Galilee
Now let’s look at the actual facts:
------------------------
1. At no time did Ceasar Augustus declare that the entire Roman empire should be counted. Augustus came into power on January 16, 27 BC and reigned for forty years dying on August 19, AD 14. Three Census' were performed at his command during his reign and counted Roman citizens only.
* In 28 BC the citizen population was 4,063,000 (including both men and women)
* In 8 BC - 4,233,000
* In AD 14 - 4,937,000
The population at around 4,000,000 seems very small but estimates put the world population that time at somewhere over 200,000,000 putting Romans at about 2-3% of the world population.
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2. Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was appointed governer of Syria in 6 AD and performed a census of the new Roman provinces of Syria and Iudaea for the purpose of taxation in 6/7 AD. Iudaea province was formed in 6 AD by combining Judea with Samaria and Idumea. It did not include the surrounding separate provinces of Galilee, Gaulanitis (the Golan), Peraea or the Decapolis. The capital was at Caesarea.
So now we see some more problems. Though the bible is correct in naming Quirinius as governor of Syria. He did perform a census it was not covering the entire Roman Empire as the bible claims. It covered only the provinces of Syria and Iudaea. It did NOT include the province of Galilee where Joseph and Mary came from and so not only were they exempt from taking part in the census they would not have been permitted to take part even if they wanted to (that would be like me as a Canadian trying to take part in a New York city Census).
2a. This claim comes with a bonus debunking as well! We know that Quirinius became governor in 6 AD. Well remember Herod the Great? He is the one who killed all the babies after Jesus was born (which was during the census)
Well… He died in 4 BC. A full 10 years BEFORE the census during which Jesus was supposed to be born. Isn’t history great?
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3. It states that “And everyone went to his own town to register”. And that Joseph had to go to Bethlehem as he was from the House of David (notice it does NOT say it was his home town or his father’s home town). As stated above this indicates the census was conducted based on Jewish tribal affiliation. Roman Census’ were not conducted based on local custom but the entire local taxable population. The census was actually conducted for the purpose of properly levying and enforcing taxes.
Also there are 12 tribes of Israel. That means if everyone had to return to the town his tribe originated from then the ENTIRE population of Israel would abandon most of the towns and return en masse to a total of 12 locations. This would not only be ruinous to the abandoned towns but also to the ones where everyone went. No census could possibly be conducted in such a fashion.
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4. Was Joseph from Galilee? There is no extrabiblical evidence for it but ALL of the gospels agree that is where he was from. As already stated above Galilee was not included in the census. Joseph would not have taken part.
---------------------------------
So not only is no prophecy fulfilled, your book is shown to be very inaccurate historically and impossible from a social/economic stand point. I look forward to your rebuttal and hope that you provide some compelling information rather than made up numbers and a made up book. Everyone please feel free to comment, let me know if I have missed anything or left anything else out.
Source Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iudaea_Province
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quirinius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus_Ceasar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
http://www.unrv.com/empire/roman-population.php
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 2:1-4;&version=31;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mathew 2:16;&version=31;
Oops; since DOC's link says the following, you've just destroyed the credibility of the whole bible:
Dear Doc:
Here is the analytical proof for Newton's laws of force:
http://www.iit.edu/~smile/guests/Newton98B3.pdf
Could you now please provide the evidence that Thomas Arnold supposedly had.
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Abe_the_Man
Thinker
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Abe_the_Man
Thinker
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