RFC: Bazant and Zhou Simple Analysis refuted

[stateofgrace]

My business is of course safety at sea (including their steel structures), but I can apparently learn a lot from safety in office towers and how poorly US authorities investigate those, particularly 911. Or vice versa, people interested in safety in office towers can learn from what happens at sea, where everything happens. Lots of pirates around that sink ships intentionally for various reasons ... and most of these pirates are actually sitting ashore in office towers. It's a small world.

So my business is doing well, thank you. It will never sink because it is based on good ground and on common sense.

Really?

What steel structures are you responsible for offshore?

Winches? "A" Frames? Cranes? Tuggers? Maybe Vertical Lay systems? How about steel ropes or steel armoured cables?

Which steel structures do you actually work on offshore? I only ask because you never know one day you may actually come across somebody who really does work offshore,really does work on steel structures and has done so for the better part of thirteen years. You may actually come across somebody who has just spent the last four weeks sailing across the atlantic all the way from Nigeria in West Africa to Tampa Bay in the US, working on and maintaining steel structures on a real offshore vessel. You may come somebody who can ask you all sorts of questions about offshore safety and steel structures.

So just to establish a base to work with, which steel frame structures on offshore vessels do you work with? What exactly are your responsibilities for the said structures?

Oh yes and the question I asked you last time you were here and you failed to answer. You know the one that every single offshore worker would know the answer to.

" What is the exclusion zone? " Any idea yet my co offshore worker?

Sorry for the further derail ,but this thread is going nowhere anyway.

 

[Arus808]

"One of them is that a child is jumping in a bed ... and, instead of bouncing up and down, the bed is destroyed and the child falls down, down, down and the bed goes into thousand of pieces and the child dies. Many children get terrible dreams of such things. I tell them they do not happen in the real world. I tell them evil persons make up such bad things."

Really, you are telling children that jumping up and down on beds can't cause them to collapse? I'll be damned. I guess that scar on my head from when I was 11 isn't there.

So you are both a No Planer and a No Bed Side Tabler too?

What? he can't be serious/

I had to go to the hospital, and get 14 stitches, to sew up the large gash that split my temple to the middle of my head open, because I jumped up and down on a bed (despite my parents yelling to not do so), and the bed broke.

 

[Heiwa]

Heiwa, you have stated several times you calculated various things.

Do you mind showing your work here?

Also, for some reason you now stating that "no planes" hit the building, yet you state that very thing in your paper.

Can you explain how numerous videos, photos, and people on the ground saw exactly what was transmitted by your "big five" networks?

I looked at your paper, and didn't see anything that has not been explained/debunked by others.

One thing that pops out is your "birdcage" analogy. You over simplified the towers construction, and I can't see where a birdcage, on fire, would respond like the towers did on that day.


BTW - the towers construction was not at all common. Buildings were not built like that.

so you can't compare what would happen to other buildings to what happened to the wtc. unless you take in account these differences - which you haven't shown.

All the info is in the links in message #200. Shortly - the potential energy released due to buckling of columns in WTC1 at an unknown time does not exceed the strain energy of the structure below and the time for the latter event relative to the first is also not clear, which means that no global collapse can ensue. It is as simple as that. So I ask Nist to check their calculations and times.

 

[Heiwa]

Really?

What steel structures are you responsible for offshore?

Winches? "A" Frames? Cranes? Tuggers? Maybe Vertical Lay systems? How about steel ropes or steel armoured cables?

Which steel structures do you actually work on offshore? I only ask because you never know one day you may actually come across somebody who really does work offshore,really does work on steel structures and has done so for the better part of thirteen years. You may actually come across somebody who has just spent the last four weeks sailing across the atlantic all the way from Nigeria in West Africa to Tampa Bay in the US, working on and maintaining steel structures on a real offshore vessel. You may come somebody who can ask you all sorts of questions about offshore safety and steel structures.

So just to establish a base to work with, which steel frame structures on offshore vessels do you work with? What exactly are your responsibilities for the said structures?

Oh yes and the question I asked you last time you were here and you failed to answer. You know the one that every single offshore worker would know the answer to.

" What is the exclusion zone? " Any idea yet my co offshore worker?

Sorry for the further derail ,but this thread is going nowhere anyway.

Yes! OT of course. I just check that the relevant staff offshore properly inspects the steel structure as per the plan. This + training how to do it are often done on the spot offshore. We also do training ashore. Lot's of climbing around for close visual inspection, etc. Not so easy to find cracks, deformation and local corrosion, etc. And sometimes other vessels bump into the structure when they are in the exclusion zone. The structure of course stays in location all the time and does not sail around.

Vessels that sail around, e.g. to Tampa, are best inspected and maintained in port. No need to go offshore for that.

 

[gumboot]

My business is of course safety at sea (including their steel structures), but I can apparently learn a lot from safety in office towers and how poorly US authorities investigate those, particularly 911. Or vice versa, people interested in safety in office towers can learn from what happens at sea, where everything happens. Lots of pirates around that sink ships intentionally for various reasons ... and most of these pirates are actually sitting ashore in office towers. It's a small world.

You think office building workers are at risk from pirates?





You're right!

 

[stateofgrace]

Yes! OT of course. I just check that the relevant staff offshore properly inspects the steel structure as per the plan. This + training how to do it are often done on the spot offshore. We also do training ashore. Lot's of climbing around for close visual inspection, etc. Not so easy to find cracks, deformation and local corrosion, etc. And sometimes other vessels bump into the structure when they are in the exclusion zone. The structure of course stays in location all the time and does not sail around.

Vessels that sail around, e.g. to Tampa, are best inspected and maintained in port. No need to go offshore for that.

WTF???

What close visual inspections?

What plan do you work to ?

What on earth are you babbling on about ? Vessels bumb into one another inside the exclusion zone? You really have no idea do you ? You have absolutly no idea what the exclusion zone is do you ?

Again what steel structures are you responsible for offshore? It's a simple questions. I will give you a clue, it either oil rigs or offshore vessels, please pick one and tell me exactly what parts you are responsible for.

What do you do offshore that qualifies you so much to write a paper about the collpase of the WTC 's? I have worked with literally hundreds of offshore engineers, some good, some bad, but not one is qualified to write about the collpase of the WTC's like you claim you are.

So again what steel structures on offshore vessels do you work on?

Tell you what Heiwa maybe you could help us out here. We have a steel winch which has over 2000 metres of steel armoured cable on it, in fact it is sat less than twenty feet from me.It weights in at some 25 ton. What plan would you have in place for your staff to test it? How ofter is it tested? What certs would you issue after it had been tested and how long are they valid for? Exactly what inspections would you or you staff carry out on this armoured cable steel winch, static, dynamic or both ?

If you knew what you were talking about you would be able to shut me up and shoot me down in flames.

 

[Heiwa]

You think office building workers are at risk from pirates?

Yes, of course! Pirates, terrorists, perpetrators of crime = all same. But I work with safety ... not the newly developed business of security where Blackwater excels.

(High) safety = (high) probability of no accident based on scientific methods

Security = slobs in uniforms harrassing the public, koncentration camp guards, etc.

 

[Heiwa]

WTF???

What close visual inspections?

What plan do you work to ?

What on earth are you babbling on about ? Vessels bumb into one another inside the exclusion zone? You really have no idea do you ? You have absolutly no idea what the exclusion zone is do you ?

Again what steel structures are you responsible for offshore? It's a simple questions. I will give you a clue, it either oil rigs or offshore vessels, please pick one and tell me exactly what parts you are responsible for.

What do you do offshore that qualifies you so much to write a paper about the collpase of the WTC 's? I have worked with literally hundreds of offshore engineers, some good, some bad, but not one is qualified to write about the collpase of the WTC's like you claim you are.

So again what steel structures on offshore vessels do you work on?

Tell you what Heiwa maybe you could help us out here. We have a steel winch which has over 2000 metres of steel armoured cable on it, in fact it is sat less than twenty feet from me.It weights in at some 25 ton. What plan would you have in place for your staff to test it? How ofter is it tested? What certs would you issue after it had been tested and how long are they valid for? Exactly what inspections would you or you staff carry out on this armoured cable steel winch, static, dynamic or both ?

If you knew what you were talking about you would be able to shut me up and shoot me down in flames.

You really do not know what an offshore steel structure is! It is offshore (at sea away from land) and remains there during time of contract. It doesn't move. It may float or stand on the bottom. It is surrounded by en exclusion zone. It is not a seagoing vessel. And it is not a winch! A winch may be fixed on an offshore structure. Etc.

 

[stateofgrace]

You really do not know what an offshore steel structure is! It is offshore (at sea away from land) and remains there during time of contract. It doesn't move. It may float or stand on the bottom. It is surrounded by en exclusion zone. It is not a seagoing vessel. And it is not a winch! A winch may be fixed on an offshore structure. Etc.

So you are responsible for oil rigs, right?

What parts of the steel structure are you responsible for, specifically?

What do you do on oil rigs? What exactly is your responsibility for impending safety on these structure? What certs do you issue? What tests do you carry out?

Do you work on fixed, semi submersibles or jackups?

What do you do , exactly ?

Ps well done on the exclusion zone, finally found it on google did you?how big is it by the way ?What is excluded inside it? Why is it there?

 

[Norseman]

You really do not know what an offshore steel structure is! It is offshore (at sea away from land) and remains there during time of contract. It doesn't move. It may float or stand on the bottom. It is surrounded by en exclusion zone. It is not a seagoing vessel. And it is not a winch! A winch may be fixed on an offshore structure. Etc.

Heiwa, what happened to for instance:

• Piper Alpha
• Mumbai High North

 

[Heiwa]

So you are responsible for oil rigs, right?

What parts of the steel structure are you responsible for, specifically?

What do you do on oil rigs? What exactly is your responsibility for impending safety on these structure? What certs do you issue? What tests do you carry out?

Do you work on fixed, semi submersibles or jackups?

What do you do , exactly ?

Ps well done on the exclusion zone, finally found it on google did you?how big is it by the way ?What is excluded inside it? Why is it there?

You are a bit OT. Read my CV on my home page if you are interested.

 

[Heiwa]

Heiwa, what happened to for instance:

• Piper Alpha
• Mumbai High North

OT of course. Subject is WTC1 collapse. Comment on Urich's paper and my simpler one for children.

 

[CHF]

Oil rigs?

Looks like Heiwa is a Swedish version of Charles Pegelow.

 

[Heiwa]

Remember the columns will fail from axial impacts only, even with (3) - 90 degree plastic hinges.

Impacts? Please show me any evidence of an impact in WTC1 initiation zone (effect) ... and what caused it (release of potential energy above?, floors falling down?). And the times, please. Details, you know!

Three plastic hinges in an axially compressed column? You are joking! Why not one, two, four or five, etc?

I have seen some examples of only one plastic hinge in a column!! Due to an impact! The rest of the column evidently behaved elastically but deformed plastically, but only one real hinge (buckling), etc. But the impact was not axial - it was from the side (evidently).

Did they find any columns with three plastic hinges due to axial compression in the WTC1 rubble? It would be magic! I could use that info in my paper.

 

[stateofgrace]

You are a bit OT. Read my CV on my home page if you are interested.

I could not care less about your CV, it means zero. Anybody can add anything they like to CV's and this is now OT. It is the topic you brought up.

You said

My busness is safety at sea ( including there steel structures)

I have asked you to clarify his statement. I have asked you simple questions about safety at sea. You have failed to answer. You have failed to address the very simple questions I have asked of you.

The exclusion zone is the 500 meter exclusion zone which is around all offshore platforms. It is the SAFETY zone.It is an industry standard and used around the globe. There are no naked uncontrolled flames allowed inside this zone, zero. There is no smoking outside allowed inside the 500 meter zone. It is there to prevent fires like Piper Alpha happening again.The only fire allowed is from the flare stack which is controlled at all time. It is a basic offshore safety rule, every single person who has ever set foot on an offshore installation or offshore vessel will know this. You are NOT allowed to work offshore if you do not know this and you will be sacked if you fail to stick to this very basic rule. Yet you who's busness is safety at sea failed to answer this most basic of questions , why is that ?

You then claimed you are responsible for steel super structures of offshore platforms. So why do you not know the very basic rules for the structures you claim to be responsible for?

What other basic offshore safety rules are you totally unaware of?

How about you explain the permit to work system or the TRA system, maybe the insolation system, please include in the toolbox talks you have with your staff.How about you tell me what safety certs you issue and how on earth you issue them after visual inspection of welds.

These are BASIC offshore safety systems and procedures that you must know about if you go anywhere near an offshore installation.

Well? What is wrong here? Will you shut me up and put me in my place ?

I personelly could not care less what you do for a living but when you claim to make a living by being involved with safety at sea, I get curious, because it affects me and the guys I work with.

So back up your claims and tell me what you do offshore and why you do not know the basic safety rules.

 

[bje]

Heiwa,

Have you ever once considered the implications of a ship when it sinks?

Even once in your entire career?

 

[Norseman]

OT of course. Subject is WTC1 collapse. Comment on Urich's paper and my simpler one for children.

The two oil rigs are just examples of the story fire weakening steel to the point of failure and collapse. Just like what happened in WTC 1 and 2:

Piper Alpha
Mumbai High North
and here.

Links for the interested reader.

 

[A W Smith]

Anders your business web site is hosted on a tripod page. There is no list of clients I can find there, And I can find no listing of your business on various maritime association web sites or directories, Anders,, What maritime associations do you belong to?????

 

[Heiwa]

I could not care less about your CV, it means zero. Anybody can add anything they like to CV's and this is now OT. It is the topic you brought up.

?? Nothing wrong with my CV - it is on my web site. There are also papers I have read at various shipping and offshore conferences and some books about safety at sea, etc. And also details of the only oil tanker design approved by United Nations International Maritime Organisation as better than double hull. It is my design of course. I attended many IMO conferences about that. You can read about its steel structure also.

I have actually a very good reputation in the shipping industry, so I do not have to publish lists of clients, etc. Let the facts tell the truth.

I use the same principles when I analyse the WTC1 collapse.

 

[funk de fino]

You really do not know what an offshore steel structure is! It is offshore (at sea away from land) and remains there during time of contract. It doesn't move. It may float or stand on the bottom. It is surrounded by en exclusion zone. It is not a seagoing vessel. And it is not a winch! A winch may be fixed on an offshore structure. Etc.

A jack up is a sea going vessel, it has bulkheads and is built to maritime standards. It moves around the field during contracts. Semi subs also move on contract. There are also drill ships in the North Sea.

Exactly what are you claiming to be responsible for? Do you actually go offshore?