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Slaves in Egypt?

Lonewulf

Humanistic Cyborg
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
10,375
Was there any actual evidence that there were slaves in Egypt? Any at all? P&T stated there was none, outside of the Bible, but is that really true?

Seems kinda odd that the "slaves in Egypt" meme has passed for so long without being true at all.

If there is no evidence, who else is responsible for keeping the meme going, outside of the Bible?
 
I don't have any definitive information. Certainly slavery was very common throughout the region (and indeed, throughout humanity) at this time; often prisoners of war.
It's known that most of the labor force used in the construction of the pyramids were essentially "national service" types taken from the general populations.
There are extant records showing expenditures for food, lodging, and so forth.

Seems likely that slaves might have been used to supplement the labor force....

Whether the Israelites as a people or tribe were so enslaved is open to dispute, as I understand it. The Egyptians didn't bother to make any mention of the fact, to my knowledge.
 
Are you talking over all of Egyptian history, or a specific time period?

Over all of Egyptian history. The time periods that specifically had slaves I would like to have pointed out, and then contrasted with the time periods that did not.

Bikewer said:
I don't have any definitive information. Certainly slavery was very common throughout the region (and indeed, throughout humanity) at this time; often prisoners of war.
It's known that most of the labor force used in the construction of the pyramids were essentially "national service" types taken from the general populations.
There are extant records showing expenditures for food, lodging, and so forth.
What I learned in my Humanities class was that most of those used in the working of the pyramids were in the middle class; skilled labor above slave labor. That Egypt had the highest amount of middle class labor out of all civilizations.

Bikewer said:
Seems likely that slaves might have been used to supplement the labor force....
Okay, but is there any actual evidence?

Do most (credible) historians actually agree that it was most likely there were slaves used?

Whether the Israelites as a people or tribe were so enslaved is open to dispute, as I understand it. The Egyptians didn't bother to make any mention of the fact, to my knowledge.
Right, the whole enslaving the Israel people. Seems kinda odd that it would be mentioned if it didn't happen, as much as I criticize the Bible for not being an accurate historical document...
 
Over all of Egyptian history. The time periods that specifically had slaves I would like to have pointed out, and then contrasted with the time periods that did not.

I would say that ancient Egypt had slaves throughout most of their history, from Pre-Dynastic times all the way up to the Ptolemies. Slavery was fairly endemic in that region at that time. You built up an army, you marched out, you conquered some poor, unsuspecting town, and you brought back slaves. And Egypt had one of the best armies around for quite a long time. So, it would be atypical if Egypt did not have slaves.

What time periods did Egypt not have slaves? There aren't a lot of records from pre-Narmer days, so Egypt may not have had slaves at that time. The only other period I can think of would be the First Intermediate Period. Little is known about this time as well. But we have some writings from folks like Manetho which point to some fairly radical social upheavals. Plus, very little was accomplished during this time. So, there may have been few, if any, slaves during 1st Intermediate.

What I learned in my Humanities class was that most of those used in the working of the pyramids were in the middle class; skilled labor above slave labor. That Egypt had the highest amount of middle class labor out of all civilizations.

I'd say that's pretty accurate. Egypt did indeed have a huge middle class. The reason for this was bureaucracy. Egypt was nothing if not a highly bureaucratic state. They loved making up rules and recording things. Heck, they loved it so much that they had to have two capitals just to accomodate all the red tape. Memphis was the "state" capital while Thebes the "religious" capital, though the roles did overlap somewhat.

But, to get back on track, this massive bureaucracy had to be staffed. And that's where the middle class came in.

However, as far as I know, the Middle Class was not used to build the Pyramids either. The Pyramids were, I believe, built by skilled stonemasons supplemented by farmers during Inundation.

Slaves most certainly were not used to build the pyramids. There was just no way a Pharaoh would allow a filthy foreigner slave anywhere near his tomb.

Okay, but is there any actual evidence?

Of Egyptian slaves? Yes. That they supplemented the regular work force? Well, yes and no. As I said above, slaves did not work on the pyramids. So, there's no evidence there.

But, slaves did help build some things. Store Cities come to mind. These were cities built along the Mediterranean in the Suez region meant to supply the Egyptian military as they would march out to the Levant to fight whoever was the enemy du jour. Slaves were most definitely used to build these.

Slaves were also used to make bricks. Most ancient Egyptian buildings, including palaces, were made of mud and straw bricks. Needless to say, making bricks was a thankless, grueling task. A perfect activity for a slave. Plus, there was the added symbolism of the captured enemy helping to build the palace of his captor. The Egyptians would have enjoyed that.

A couple of other tasks that come to mind: quarrying granite and sex slaves. So, yes, slaves were around and they were put to good use.

Do most (credible) historians actually agree that it was most likely there were slaves used?

Again, not to build the pyramids, no. No credible Egyptologist believes this. But, I think most agree that slaves did have a role to play in Egyptian infrastructure.

Right, the whole enslaving the Israel people. Seems kinda odd that it would be mentioned if it didn't happen, as much as I criticize the Bible for not being an accurate historical document...

The Israelite issue is a completely different can of worms, which I will try not to get into. However, I will say that I do believe that an ethnic group that would someday become the Israelites did indeed live in Egypt for a time. I do not believe that they numbered in the hundreds of thousands, nor even the tens of thousands. I doubt that there was any sort of dramatic escape from the clutches of the Pharaoh. And I'm not so sure that they were ever slaves. But, I do believe the writer of Genesis did base some of his story on fact. That's the best I can commit to at this point, as I haven't researched the issue thoroughly.
 
Welcome to the forum, Russian Muppet!

Thank you for the post. Very informative. Only 2 posts so far? I hope to see more in the future.

So, essentially, slavery was not used on the tombs, but slavery was very commonplace in Egyptian history, just like any most any other culture. With exceptions in a couple of periods, where slavery is not exactly recorded (which might be an issue with recording as much as not actually have slaves)... if I have it correct?

Hm... a culture of bureaucrats and slavers. The latter is par for the course, but combined with the former, my respect for the Egyptians has just down a notch. But it's still pretty high; I mean, there's much about them to respect more than there isn't.
 
I would like to thank you both. It has honestly never occurred to me to question whether there was slavery in Egypt. So I have learned something very interesting today

I found this link, which is not so erudite as Russian Muppet's knowledge but I found it quite informative just the same

http://touregypt.net/featurestories/slaves.htm

Not sure of the author's background but the text seems to cite a lot of sources and I hope to look into this more tomorrow. Tis late unfortunately

this one confirms some of it

http://terraflex.co.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/slavery.htm
 
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Welcome to the forum, Russian Muppet!

Thank you for the post. Very informative. Only 2 posts so far? I hope to see more in the future.

Yeah, only 2 posts. Even worse, look at when I joined. But, thank you for the welcome!

And please, take my information with a grain of salt. I am at best an enthusiastic amateur when it comes to Egyptology. Plus, I'm at work and have to do this all from memory.

So, essentially, slavery was not used on the tombs, but slavery was very commonplace in Egyptian history, just like any most any other culture. With exceptions in a couple of periods, where slavery is not exactly recorded (which might be an issue with recording as much as not actually have slaves)... if I have it correct?

I'd say that is a good summary. However, Fiona brings up some good points that I meant to bring up earlier.

One point is that most Egyptian slaves were not like the slaves we are familiar with. Some certainly were. But, some, like household slaves, were held in high regard. Most slaves though were more like indentured servants.

Also, the image of thousands of slaves toiling away, whips cracking over their heads, is incorrect. There just weren't that many slaves. And for good reason. There was no way to control a massive group of unruly foreigners in those days. The Egyptians didn't even have chariots until the Hyksos took over. Plus, slaves take a lot of resources to maintain. And even in grain-rich Egypt, it wasn't easy.

Hm... a culture of bureaucrats and slavers. The latter is par for the course, but combined with the former, my respect for the Egyptians has just down a notch. But it's still pretty high; I mean, there's much about them to respect more than there isn't.

Nah, I wouldn't peg the Egyptians down for their bureaucracy. If nothing else, it created the first true middle class in history. Something that wouldn't be duplicated for another 2000 years. But, I do get your point. It's difficult to admire a bureaucracy, no matter what it's accomplished.
 
Another theory has been expressed. This theory is that the Israelites never left their homes. Instead, during the approximate time of the "Moses show" the Egyptians occupied the Israelites territory for a short period of about 50 years. Finding little or nothing to justify this occupation the Egyptians abandoned this territory.

And from this developed the biblical account. Since the bible is basically oral history told and retold for centuries, then written down, translated, "interpreted" for many purposes, etc is it difficult to accept that the biblical story actually developed from this short-term occupation?
 
Yet another theory about the Exodus events is that it may describe emigration of a monotheistic cult from Egypt and into Israel, with Moses as leader. It's possible that they entered Israel with wealth and education, and thus established themselves in strong political positions.

These Egyptian expatriates and their descendants could have influenced the E and J oral traditions, with Israelites adopting this powerful group's emigration as their own origin story.
 
I'm sorry... "E and J"? Egyptian and...?

(Sorry, just woke up. x.x)
 
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Another theory has been expressed. This theory is that the Israelites never left their homes. Instead, during the approximate time of the "Moses show" the Egyptians occupied the Israelites territory for a short period of about 50 years. Finding little or nothing to justify this occupation the Egyptians abandoned this territory.

That's an interesting idea. Egyptian influence in that region was certainly on the decline during the time of the supposed Exodus. It has been theorized that Ramesses II was the Exodus Pharaoh (though I believe current scholarship names his successor, Merenptah, as the likely suspect) and he was the last to make any significant inroads into the Levant. For example, Ramesses II was the instigator of the famous Battle of Qadesh, in Northern Syria. Later in life, Ramesses signed a peace treaty with the Hittites, and since then, their influence declined.
So, it is possible that this particular theory is correct. However, there was a population of Jews/Israelites in Egypt for quite some time in the Suez/Delta region. This is not necessarily a theory buster, though. People were constantly migrating into Egypt from the Levant. Any time there was a famine, groups would pack up and move into Egypt, where there was a good chance that there would be food (or at least arable land). Then, when things would improve back home, they'd move back. So, the exodus story could come from either one of these somewhat cyclical migrations or, as stated above, from the Egyptians simply moving out of their territory.

And from this developed the biblical account. Since the bible is basically oral history told and retold for centuries, then written down, translated, "interpreted" for many purposes, etc is it difficult to accept that the biblical story actually developed from this short-term occupation?

It's not difficult for me to accept. But, then again, I am not a biblical scholar, nor an expert of that region.
 
Yet another theory about the Exodus events is that it may describe emigration of a monotheistic cult from Egypt and into Israel, with Moses as leader. It's possible that they entered Israel with wealth and education, and thus established themselves in strong political positions.

These Egyptian expatriates and their descendants could have influenced the E and J oral traditions, with Israelites adopting this powerful group's emigration as their own origin story.

That's an interesting idea as well. Where did this cult come from, I wonder? I would guess that they were remnants from Akhenaten's doomed flirtation with monotheism. Despite Egypt reverting back to their pantheon under Tutankhamun, there could have been some that still found Akhenaten's ideas worthwhile. And Egypt, desperate to rid themselves of this blemish upon their divine order and worried that it might spread, may not have been too keen to have these heretics around. So, they left.

They couldn't go south. The Nubians, longtime enemies of Egypt, probably would not be too receptive. They couldn't go west. Nothing but desert and nomads, two things Egyptians were not too fond of. Couldn't go east. Nothing but ocean, another thing Egyptians were not fond of. So, they went north.

I see some problems with this theory (that they were Egyptian ex-pats), but in the interest of length, I'll spare you all.
 
I know that Ramses the Great has traditionally been the Pharaoh of the Exodus, but I've felt that the story of Moses fits better into the general framework of the 18th Dynasty, with Hatshepsut being "Pharaoh's Daughter", Thutmose IV as the Pharoah of the Exodus, and Akhenaten as Pharoah during the invasion of Palestine. Not that it actually went down that way! It's more like the "I, Claudius" of the day.
 
Slavery appears in most agricultural societies from the earliest periods up until pretty much the modern day. It can take a number of forms from tied serfs or indentured servants to the complete slavery we associate with say the Greek silver mines or the tobacco plantations of the 18th and 19th century.

The Egyptians most certainly did have slaves. The wealthy would certainly have had domestic servants to do the more mundane tasks and as mentioned above they would have been used to carry out basic industrial tasks. However, the agricultural cycle the Egyptians worked to made it less conducive to widespread use of slaves on the land unlike as in, say, Roman times. Indeed the annual flood gave the Pharoh a lot of spare labour hours to work on public tasks. The archaeological evidence seems to suggest that the pyramid workers were split up into village teams and that they were proud of their efforts and were quite competitive with each other.

It would be fair then to say that slavery was probably not the backbone of the Egyptian economy unlike some other cultures in the region.
 
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