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Split Thread WTC7 collapse (again) - split from: How did you rule out that 911 was an insid

First of all, keep in mind that Bruce Lee was 33 when he died mysteriously.

Sometimes it's wise to pick your plateau.

Regarding your further response to the influence of WTC7 transformers WhiteLion, din lista över kommentarerna blandar inte lätt till ta menande från.

Where is it reported that debris fall from other buildings like WTC1, has not been taken into consideration. Much has been said here about the gouge and corner damage. No good proof has been provided that this damage was a factor in the style of WTC7's collapse.

Correct, no good proof has been provided, but plenty of good evidence has been provided suggesting that damage played a role in the collapse. There is no good evidence, let alone proof, for any alternative collapse initiation or collapse progression hypothesis.

Again the building fire and the 10-story gouge have been taken into great consideration.

You might like to visit this extremely thorough thread on the subject. It only lives on because for many here, it "preaches blasphemy in the temple".

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2225055#post2225055

MM

Warning to Whitelion, if you try to read that thread from the beginning, you will (as I believed Twinstead said), get a 10 story gouge in your brain.
 
Correct, no good proof has been provided, but plenty of good evidence has been provided suggesting that damage played a role in the collapse. There is no good evidence, let alone proof, for any alternative collapse initiation or collapse progression hypothesis.



Warning to Whitelion, if you try to read that thread from the beginning, you will (as I believed Twinstead said), get a 10 story gouge in your brain.

Read my words GStan and you'll observe that I specifically referred to the "style of collapse". I did not suggest for a moment that debris damage played no part in the collapse.

The WTC7 collapse was very unusual in style unless it was a controlled demolition.
  • It was a high speed collapse.

    It was a symmetrical collapse.

    It maintained a relatively level roofline all the way to the ground.

    It landed for the most part in it's own footprint.

    NIST has been so stymied in their ability to provide a final WTC7 draft for public consumption that they are now delaying until July, 2008, almost 7 years after the event!
Yes the 10 story gouge thread is not recommended as a full read. It would be a much better thread if the membership had been more interested in discussion.

MM
 
Read my words GStan and you'll observe that I specifically referred to the "style of collapse". I did not suggest for a moment that debris damage played no part in the collapse.

The WTC7 collapse was very unusual in style unless it was a controlled demolition.
  • It was a high speed collapse.

    It was a symmetrical collapse.

    It maintained a relatively level roofline all the way to the ground.

    It landed for the most part in it's own footprint.

    NIST has been so stymied in their ability to provide a final WTC7 draft for public consumption that they are now delaying until July, 2008, almost 7 years after the event!
Yes the 10 story gouge thread is not recommended as a full read. It would be a much better thread if the membership had been more interested in discussion.

MM

Is "discussion" a euphemism for avoiding the facts?

Nothing you have said here is accurate- therefore your conclusion is absurd. All you're doing is desperately trying to ignore the facts in order to avoid producing your own.

Even if you were right about the "style" of collapse being "unusual", that does not- in any way- mean it was a controlled demolition or could not have been from the documented and observed structural damage. In fact, it makes it quite clear that it could not have been a controlled demolition.

:arrow:Of course, this contradiction- like many others in your absurd claims- will go unresolved yet repeated for some time to come.
 
Read my words GStan and you'll observe that I specifically referred to the "style of collapse". I did not suggest for a moment that debris damage played no part in the collapse.

The WTC7 collapse was very unusual in style unless it was a controlled demolition.


  • Unusual is a very subjective and relative term, not terribly condusive to a critical argument. None-the-less, the collapse sequence observed does not require a CD explanation. The building was badly damaged by debris and lengthy unabated fires. Many fire experts on scene believe it to be in danger of collapse. And it did collapse. Nothing, and I mean that in the strongest possible use of the word, was observed at building 7 that would be inconsistent with the building collapsing as a result of debris and fire damage. No phenomenon were observed by anyone on scene that would have exclusively happened only from a CD.

    [*]It was a high speed collapse.

    At what speed would you expect it to collapse? When the structural support fails, gravity does the rest. Unfortunately for the truth movement, the force of gravity is applied equally to every building that has ever collapsed, whether the support was removed from damage and/or fire, or from the controlled use of explosives.

    It was a symmetrical collapse.

    http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC Part IIC - WTC 7 Collapse Final.pdf

    It was not symmetrical. Check out page 26 for verification of the 8.2 seconds of non-symmetrical localized collapse prior to the global collapse. BTW, when you add in the additional 7 seconds for the global collapse time, the free-fall / high speed argument is invalidated as well. I'm sure this has been pointed out to you many times on more than one thread.

    maintained a relatively level roofline all the way to the ground.

    Irrelevant, its not inconsistent with a debris/fire damage collapse.

    It landed for the most part in it's own footprint.

    Irrelevant, its not inconsistent with a debris/fire damage collapse. Again, gravity is a terrible inconvenience for the conspiracy argument. Unless some sufficient lateral force is pushing the mass of the building outside of its own footprint, gravity will bring most of it straight down into its own footprint.


    NIST has been so stymied in their ability to provide a final WTC7 draft for public consumption that they are now delaying until July, 2008, almost 7 years after the event!

    NIST's priority is building safety, not entertaining and appeasing J.A.Q. offs who presume to know how long it should take to perform such a study.

    You really should read the above-linked presentation, as well as this...

    http://wtc.nist.gov/media/ScheuermanStatementDec2006.pdf

    I'm sure neither will help your interpretation of all the available evidence, but it may open your eyes to the fact that the observed collapse sequence was not uniquely characteristic of a CD.
 
The WTC7 collapse was very unusual in style unless it was a controlled demolition.

"Very unusual" is an intertesting choice of words. None of these people, (all of which were on the scene and many of which are experienced experts) found anything unusual about the collapse, style or otherwise.

Wouldn't something that is "very unusual" be viewed as "very unusual" by more people, or for that matter any people, especially those that are experienced in such matters?

Mirage, is there any way you can reconcile this vast discrepancy between what you hypothesize happened and what those on the scene say happened (without resorting to either specualting on why all of these people disagree with you or torturing their words into implicitly agreeing with you)?
 
He also acknowledged in the same interview that he was not surprised that demolition experts in the U.S. were not in agreement with him, as they risked future contracts if they failed to agree with the government's point of view.

MM

What an absolute load of rubbish. Boy ,how did I miss this complete and utter garbage. Future contracts? US Goverments point of view? How utterly desperate can you get.

So now every demolition expert inside the US is keeping quite for fear of losing income.Is this the standard that you measure people by ? Is this low standard, set by you, the standard that you expect us all to accept? Your standards are low but by any standard this is the lowest, that anybody, let alone somebody with explosives expertise and knowledge would keep quiet about the cold blooded mass murder of their fellow countrymen for fear of losing a few contracts.

And what about the rest of planet? You know the 95 % that live outside the US? DUH, are there no demolition experts outside the US, other than him? Or are they all afraid of risking future contracts if they don't agree with the US Goverments position ?
 
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Is "discussion" a euphemism for avoiding the facts?

Nothing you have said here is accurate- therefore your conclusion is absurd. All you're doing is desperately trying to ignore the facts in order to avoid producing your own.

Even if you were right about the "style" of collapse being "unusual", that does not- in any way- mean it was a controlled demolition or could not have been from the documented and observed structural damage. In fact, it makes it quite clear that it could not have been a controlled demolition.

:arrow:Of course, this contradiction- like many others in your absurd claims- will go unresolved yet repeated for some time to come.

Well Toto I poured through your response.

In summation, you basically 'talked about' what I said but added little..well actually nothing to the discussion.

You state that nothing I say here is accurate but of course you don't buttress this statement with evidence of my inaccuracies.

You accuse me of desperately ignoring the facts when in fact I have been providing facts aplenty.

It is you who are ignoring and not engaging the presentation.

The logic you apply must be unique to you.

MM
 
Well Toto I poured through your response.

In summation, you basically 'talked about' what I said but added little..well actually nothing to the discussion.

You state that nothing I say here is accurate but of course you don't buttress this statement with evidence of my inaccuracies.

You accuse me of desperately ignoring the facts when in fact I have been providing facts aplenty.

It is you who are ignoring and not engaging the presentation.

The logic you apply must be unique to you.

MM


How many times do I need to repeat myself before you stop ignoring the question?
 
Unusual is a very subjective and relative term, not terribly condusive to a critical argument. None-the-less, the collapse sequence observed does not require a CD explanation. The building was badly damaged by debris and lengthy unabated fires. Many fire experts on scene believe it to be in danger of collapse. And it did collapse. Nothing, and I mean that in the strongest possible use of the word, was observed at building 7 that would be inconsistent with the building collapsing as a result of debris and fire damage. No phenomenon were observed by anyone on scene that would have exclusively happened only from a CD.

Really?

This is where I find the whole lying thing at JREF so fascinating. I get called a liar all the time yet my accusers constantly lie about their WTC7 impressions.

They deny that the collapse looked anything like a controlled demolition when it undoubtedly looked very much like controlled demolition.

They then exaggerate the damage and the fire because those are the only available causes to fall back on when avoiding the obvious, controlled demolition.

Shell-shocked witnesses to the unexpected collapses of WTC1 and WTC2 are held up as reputable experts in the belief that WTC7 would behave similarly. I suspect few New Yorkers would have argued the likelihood of WTC7 collapsing on 9/11.

At what speed would you expect it to collapse? When the structural support fails, gravity does the rest. Unfortunately for the truth movement, the force of gravity is applied equally to every building that has ever collapsed, whether the support was removed from damage and/or fire, or from the controlled use of explosives.

How is the law of gravity an unfortunate event in the lives of members of the truth movement?

It's the behavior of gravity that makes the style of the collapse of WTC7 so suspicious.


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC Part IIC - WTC 7 Collapse Final.pdf

It was not symmetrical. Check out page 26 for verification of the 8.2 seconds of non-symmetrical localized collapse prior to the global collapse. BTW, when you add in the additional 7 seconds for the global collapse time, the free-fall / high speed argument is invalidated as well. I'm sure this has been pointed out to you many times on more than one thread.

Yup. It's been pointed out. I do know how to read and appreciate proffered information. Somehow you believe that a symmetrical local collapse (East Penthouse) occurring seconds prior to the symmetrical collapse of the complete 47-story building negates my concerns?


Irrelevant, its not inconsistent with a debris/fire damage collapse.



Irrelevant, its not inconsistent with a debris/fire damage collapse. Again, gravity is a terrible inconvenience for the conspiracy argument. Unless some sufficient lateral force is pushing the mass of the building outside of its own footprint, gravity will bring most of it straight down into its own footprint.




NIST's priority is building safety, not entertaining and appeasing J.A.Q. offs who presume to know how long it should take to perform such a study.

You really should read the above-linked presentation, as well as this...

http://wtc.nist.gov/media/ScheuermanStatementDec2006.pdf

I'm sure neither will help your interpretation of all the available evidence, but it may open your eyes to the fact that the observed collapse sequence was not uniquely characteristic of a CD.

It's obviously a waste of time applying keystrokes in response to your replies since you are only responding with rhetoric whereas I'm actually seeking human thought processes.

MM
 
How many times do I need to repeat myself before you stop ignoring the question?

Good question Toto...you tell me.

If you can't be bothered to formulate your question in an understandable form, then don't expect me to bother attempting to answer it.

MM
 
Good question Toto...you tell me.

If you can't be bothered to formulate your question in an understandable form, then don't expect me to bother attempting to answer it.

MM

I've formulated my question every possible way- you just continue to ignore it. Thankfully, others continually point out your contradictions. It's pointless for me to continue to repeat myself to someone who has absolutely no interest in being logically consistent. You can live with gaping hole in your claims- you have no problem contradicting yourself.

How can anyone expect to reason with you? You've ignored several posts, including some very important points made by others above. You just pretend they're not there. Why should anyone expect that to change?
 
I suggest you stop dodging the fact that Jowenko is no support for your case and answer to the contradiction.

Wham.

The fact that you agree with him on 7 (for no reason) but disagree with him on 1 and 2 (for no reason).

ALREADY DID [explain it]- remember, it's the point that EVERYONE ELSE keeps bringing up that you are trying very hard to ignore:

JOWENKO EMPHATICALLY STATED THAT 1 AND 2 COULD NOT HAVE BEEN A CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. That directly contradicts not only the claim itself- but your assertion that believing 7 is an inside job would necessitate 1 and 2 to be the same. Your own expert disagrees with you. (for no reason)

Bam.

Holy dodge of all dodges. The topic was Jowenko as an expert. You brought it up and now you want to remove that from the context. Do you understand how transparent that is?

Not only have I proven it, but others here have clearly shown it to you. I want to make this clear to you: your only response has been to ignore the contradiction and pretend that it's not relevant.

I can very much defend my position on WTC7- I am addressing your claim in regards to an expert supporting your position. You are attempting to steer the conversation away from that for obvious reasons. I do not believe I am going to continue to try- because I am confident that others have seen your dishonesty and do not buy it.

Thank you, ma'am.
 
I've formulated my question every possible way- you just continue to ignore it. Thankfully, others continually point out your contradictions. It's pointless for me to continue to repeat myself to someone who has absolutely no interest in being logically consistent. You can live with gaping hole in your claims- you have no problem contradicting yourself.

How can anyone expect to reason with you? You've ignored several posts, including some very important points made by others above. You just pretend they're not there. Why should anyone expect that to change?

You are quite right Toto.

If I was to ignore your questions than it would make the world of sense for you give up.

From what I can tell, I haven't been ignoring your questions, you simply can't be bothered to repeat them or form them in a way that makes sense?

MM
 
You are quite right Toto.

If I was to ignore your questions than it would make the world of sense for you give up.

From what I can tell, I haven't been ignoring your questions, you simply can't be bothered to repeat them or form them in a way that makes sense?

MM

Just you, then- no one else a problem seeing your contradictions. Several have pointed them out, in fact.
 
Not at all.

I'm just calling into question testimony from those who may not, under the circumstances, be giving the most reliable testimony.

MM

What circumstances might those be, MM? That you don't want them to have witnesses what they- in fact- witnessed?

Witness: "Oh my god, that guy just ran a red light!"

MM: "Unless you're a police officer, you're not qualified to make that observation."

It's called ad hominem- and it's a fallacy.
 
BTW, when you add in the additional 7 seconds for the global collapse time, the free-fall / high speed argument is invalidated as well. I'm sure this has been pointed out to you many times on more than one thread.
That's false!

There is often a discussion about the collapse time of wtc7. The movement of the penthouses adds some seconds. That's very interesting indeed, the 6.6 seconds is the fall of the roof of wtc7 and not the penthouses. If we only look at the fall of that roof, then the discrete crush-up model gives the following plot

72bjk8i.gif


Here horizontally we have the collapse energy per story (assuming the mass of the building is scaled to 1) and vertically the collapse time. I made this plot with maple a couple of weeks ago, the derivation is straightforward. Shagster (not here) got the same result using differential equations using an homogeneous model, i.e. in fact the Bazant/Greening crush-up equation with Stretch ignored)

This follows from maple:

E1/M=0 J/kg => T=5.96 seconds
E1/M=4.19 J/kg => T=6.5 seconds
E1/M=4.83 J/kg => T=6.6 seconds
E1/M=8.17 J/kg => T=7.38 seconds

Indeed for E1/M=0 we see that the buildings collapse time is exactly the free fall time sqrt(2*174/9.81), about 5.96 seconds. Since the sucker came down in 6.6 seconds that implies that the ratio is E1/M=4.83 J/kg, and here E1 is the collapse energy per story and M the total mass of wtc7. In this way it is possible to fit the ratio although the individual values are not known.

The nice thing is that in Greening's model (and also Bazant of course because that is in fact the continuous model) the collapse time is scalable, which means that for the total collapse time T (and also the speed as function of the floor, or time)
we have

T(a*E1,a*M)=T(E1,M) , for some a>0 (also valid for wtc1,2)

When the value of the mass seems to be half as much as we thought then the E1 value should be modified in order to get the ratio unhanged (to keep the collapse behaviour the same)

A consequence of the crush-up model is also that it must be a fast collapse if it is a complete one. For E1/M=8.17 J/kg the maximum collapse time is reached, when that value is higher the collapse will not be complete (the collapse time becomes mathematically complex)
and a story will be left. Therefore if you add the collapse time of the penthouses then you have a problem in the 1d crush-up model.

This shows that the initial movement indicates that the structure is failing, it cannot be a part of the crush-up. Another important thing about this is that this failed, broken and falling building provides huge resistance, in spite of the fact that it is demolished inside before the global collapse. For the wtc1,2 we had the planes, we had toppling blocks, initial movement, but not for wtc7.
How much kinetic energy do you want to crush an initial story ? There is no basis for a collapse.
 
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Wham.



Bam.



Thank you, ma'am.

Well I'm sorry to see you reduced to conversing with yourself Toto.

Well maybe I'm wrong about that as well?

Possibly you do that to achieve agreement?

So if I am to understand you correctly, you feel that even though Danny Jowenko had ample time to see the various versions of the WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapses and hear the 'take' that the United States was taking on those collapses, and given that Danny stated in a telephone interview last spring that he was well aware that contradicting the official story was bad for business, there is nothing unprofessional about him agreeing that the collapses of WTC 1 and WTC 2 were to be expected under the circumstances?

You also perceive me as being a liar because I believe Danny Jowenko placed his business interests ahead of his professional opinion?

I'm quite certain that had Danny Jowenko known that he was watching the collapse of WTC7 the first time it was shown to him, that he would have 'back stepped' and not claimed in to be a controlled demolition. Once he was trapped giving his honest professional opinion he had to decide whether to compromise his professional ego or stand by his beliefs even if it was bad for business.

Danny Jowenko like most individuals, has no wish to be a hero or be the whistle blower that drives the nail in the WTC7 coffin.

MM
 

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