Micro Spheres in world trade center dust solved.

[JamesB]

I have always wondered, as a completely layman on this issue, but what would be the metalurgical effect of a 500 MPH plane, composed largely of aluminum striking an aluminum and steel building at 500 MPH? Anyone who has ever tried to start a camp fire with flint and steel can observe the intense heat giving off by friction (at much lower energy levels). Could this account for any of the observed phenomena?

 

[Mince]

Good God, finally they each moved a pawn.

Masterful. Simply masterful!

Wrong! My first move was Nf6! (which you'll no doubt recognize as the classic Indian defense).

So, since everyone here is basically really stupid - as, in a stupor, not like stupid stupid - - allow me to translate:

Not a writer, I see. That's ok, writing isn't for everyone! Many successful people are very clumsy with words.

Dr. Jones is asking how the iron microspheres - evidence of molten iron - which in turn is evidence of temperatures of at least 1536 C - were formed in the WTC fires. (Remember, NIST's little fire video game only had fires that reached 1000 C.) Following this line of thinking, the presence of the [once molten] iron microspheres means one of the following:

1. The WTC fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C;
2. The debris field fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C (from forced-air situations, or chemical reactions, or "thermate residue", or some other energy source);
3. Iron microspheres can form at temperatures lower that 1536 C.

So, here are some questions from the exchange thus far:

1. Are iron microspheres iron-clad indicators that temperatures reached at least 1536 C, or can iron microspheres form at lower temperatures?
2. If 1536 C were reached in the towers or the debris field, what generated this high temperature?

Jones' delivery boy? Well, I'm looking more for a raw scientific analysis like Crazy Chainsaw's post 78 or Apollo20's post 57 (which, seemingly, you've already read). After reading their analyses in this thread, do you really think they need an abridged, dumbed-down (pardon the crude expression---but it fits!) synopsis of Jones' work? Please, indulge us with your scientific analysis regarding micro-particles. I'm sure it would be quite edifying.

Apollo - Well written, sincere, ... who wouldn't want to work with you?

Work for him? Because he made a decent message board post? Where's that "confused" smiley? Oh wait! I don't use smilies. Just know I'm perplexed.

 

[Mince]

Ahem...

The same can be said of the NIST Reports.

Tsk tsk tsk on the arson unvestigation.

Coulda shoulda woulda.

Hmmmm. The expression "Bad behavior does not allow or excuse other bad behavior" comes to mind. Should I use it? Should I...? Yeah, what the heck.


Bad behavior does not allow or excuse other bad behavior.*



Analogous:

DGM said: Ted Bundy is a bad man and should be punished.

You said (essentially): But David Berkowitz was also a bad man before him, so it's ok.






*Please note I am not testifying to the authenticity of either body (NIST or Stephen Jones). I'm certainly not qualified.


P.S. You misspelled "investigation".


Regarding your sig: "Thermite was used - not to cut or melt WTC steel - but to heat-weaken splices and other connections.
Gradual, deliberate heat-weakening induced global instability in, and the collapse of the WTC towers. Thermite initiated and cloaked the controlled-demolitions, in plain view, with the whole world watching."

Certainly you have empirical proof of this thesis. You wouldn't proffer it if you didn't have empirical proof, right? I mean, you don't merely believe it just because "it's possible", or "could happen" or "makes sense", do you? I know, I know. You're going to tell me to go to your website. I have and I'm still looking for empirical proof. Let's have it!

 

[BenBurch]

I have always wondered, as a completely layman on this issue, but what would be the metalurgical effect of a 500 MPH plane, composed largely of aluminum striking an aluminum and steel building at 500 MPH? Anyone who has ever tried to start a camp fire with flint and steel can observe the intense heat giving off by friction (at much lower energy levels). Could this account for any of the observed phenomena?

Your instincts are good.

There would have been an amazing variety of metal and metal oxide spall from this event.

 

[BenBurch]

...

The micro spheres are one of the more valuable parts of the fly ash, and have been separated and sold for years before the fly ash goes into concrete.

Brilliant. Solves the problem completely. Thank you.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

Somewhere out there is a video of a college lecture where the professor bangs two balls together, one aluminum, the other steel with a light coating of rust. an impressive spark is emitted.

 

[Max Photon]

How do iron-microspheres form in a 600 - 1000 C incinerator?

I do not believe that a temperature of 1536 deg C (or higher!) is necessary to form iron-rich microspheres. These type of particles are formed in incinerators that never get above 1200 deg C. In fact most of the chemistry involved in forming microspheres takes place in the temperature range 600 - 1000 deg C, well within the range of temperatures expected for the WTC fires. Think about it, if a waste incinerator gets above 1536 deg C the incinerator walls, which are usually made of carbon steel or low alloy steels, will melt!

By what mechanism does one get (once-molten) iron microspheres from a chilly 600-1000 C incinerator?

This question is important because it appears (to me anyway) Jones is assuming iron microspheres are irrefutable evidence of formation temperatures of at least 1536 C.

* * *

Mince, I spelled arson unvestigation correctly, thank you.

 

[T.A.M.]

So what I am gathering, even from this limited discussion, is that iron microspheres can form at a number of temperatures, depending on the environment (chemical). A chemist has now provided his opinion that it takes much less than the 1536C Jones (I assume) suggests is needed, and in particular points to incinerators as a prime example.

Well I agree everyone, it is clearly Jone's next move. In my opinion, he should either admit his spherules prove nothing and drop it, or should provide his data for others to verify or refute...EOS.

TAM

 

[beachnut]

By what mechanism does one get (once-molten) iron microspheres from a chilly 600-1000 C incinerator?

This question is important because it appears (to me anyway) Jones is assuming iron microspheres are irrefutable evidence of formation temperatures of at least 1536 C.

* * *

Mince, I spelled arson unvestigation correctly, thank you.

The spheres are present in items around us! They are released when things are smashed up. Like when the WTC towers fell! So you need not temperature on 9/11 to form the spheres, they were already there!

 

[T.A.M.]

By what mechanism does one get (once-molten) iron microspheres from a chilly 600-1000 C incinerator?

Excellent question, which I hope Dr. Greening or CC can answer.

TAM

 

[MIKILLINI]

The Purina-feed factory-farmed trout are starting to circle...

Umm..Max? Is this yours?..:

Thanks Mikillini. I would add:

Thermite fuse ignited by jet impact also works beautifully with LIHOP. A net could have covered the towers, so that wherever the jets hit, the fuses could be ignited to induce thermite-based heat-weakening only on impact floors. So, despite what Mikillini says, my collapse initiation mechanisms do not depend on MIHOP, and do not depend on remote controlled jets.

Second, I am not trying to convince people of anything. People convince themselves. I'm just trying to make people think.

Third, even if MAX-MIHOP is incorrect, there is tremendous value in pushing different hypotheses are far as they can go. Even models that ultimately fail often reveal the strengths and weaken of superior models. More important, the clash of models can trigger major revelations.

Fourth, "inside job" is a possible solution to the problem. Therefore, it is important to prove up the best possible inside job scenario. That is what MAX-MIHOP tries to do.

Are you ruling out fly ash already Max? Or do you just believe CC's experiments have no credible merit to make people think, including yourself?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Somewhere out there is a video of a college lecture where the professor bangs two balls together, one aluminum, the other steel with a light coating of rust. an impressive spark is emitted.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/demonstrationsexperiments/ss/liquidmagnet_3.htm

 

[Jonnyclueless]

This question is important because it appears (to me anyway) Jones is assuming iron microspheres are irrefutable evidence of formation temperatures of at least 1536 C.
.

Jones assuming? Never! It's not like him to make incorrect assertions...

 

[pomeroo]

Good God, finally they each moved a pawn.

Masterful. Simply masterful!


So, since everyone here is basically really stupid - as, in a stupor, not like stupid stupid - - allow me to translate:

Dr. Jones is asking how the iron microspheres - evidence of molten iron - which in turn is evidence of temperatures of at least 1536 C - were formed in the WTC fires. (Remember, NIST's little fire video game only had fires that reached 1000 C.) Following this line of thinking, the presence of the [once molten] iron microspheres means one of the following:

1. The WTC fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C;
2. The debris field fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C (from forced-air situations, or chemical reactions, or "thermate residue", or some other energy source);
3. Iron microspheres can form at temperatures lower that 1536 C.

So, here are some questions from the exchange thus far:

1. Are iron microspheres iron-clad indicators that temperatures reached at least 1536 C, or can iron microspheres form at lower temperatures?
2. If 1536 C were reached in the towers or the debris field, what generated this high temperature?

* * *

Apollo - Well written, sincere, ... who wouldn't want to work with you?

e^n - I know you have respect for me, so you never need qualify your posts. Perhaps our discussion would better fit on my thermite-in box-columns thread.

Max, why do you presume the necessity of translating for an audience consisting of many people who know far more than you do?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

By what mechanism does one get (once-molten) iron microspheres from a chilly 600-1000 C incinerator?

This question is important because it appears (to me anyway) Jones is assuming iron microspheres are irrefutable evidence of formation temperatures of at least 1536 C.

* * *

Mince, I spelled arson unvestigation correctly, thank you.

It is not iron the Micro spheres are magnetite, Iron oxide Fe 304

page ten.

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/10180692-bseoOC/10180692.PDF

Magnehemite is a rare earth mineral, but found in great abundance on mars.
It makes mars red, Dr. Jones simply does not understand simple Chemistry.

 

[Mince]

Mince, I spelled arson unvestigation correctly, thank you.

But you (apparently) missed my bit of sarcasm!

You're welcome.

 

[Max Photon]

Waiter, there's a fly in my microspheres. AND they're cold.

Are you ruling out fly ash already Max?

Oh no, not at all!

I was asking about the formation temperature of iron microspheres from the perspective that (I believe) Jones is coming from (that the spherules were formed either in the towers or in the debris, and not that they might have been formed at some other time/space/process).

I think Beachhut got the same wrong impression. Sorry about that.

But I think that Jones believes - and I may be incorrect - that the microspheres (assuming they were formed on 911) PROVE temperatures of at least 1536 C.

I think TAM got where I was coming from.

 

[ComsatAngel2017]

Not the fuel of the vehicles it is another fuel though, however the machine that burns it is way bigger than a house, and never moves just creates steam and spins.

The US Senate?

<ouch!>

 

[Apollo20]

Ironic answers to questions about microspheres

The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O. Iron is transported as a volatile di or tri-chloride. FeCl2 has a m.p. of 677 deg C and allows "active" corrosion to occur with iron wastage rates as high as 100 g/m^2 per hour. The iron chloride is relatively unstable and decomposes but the iron does not wind up as a pure iron microsphere. As the very least it will be oxide (probably Fe3O4) coated and alloyed with other metals such as Al. Fly ash usually contains mullite, Al6Si2O13. This readily combines with iron oxide at ~ 1000 deg C to form an iron-rich aluminosilicate microsphere on cooling. Other elements such as K and Ca are also readily incorporated into these melts. This is the chemistry of CLAY minerals! As long as Jones' microspheres contain Si and/or K and Ca, they are NOT derived from thermite.

 

[MIKILLINI]

Apollo..have you a concise compilation with the Plastimet fire chemistry data to compare with EPA and New York Board Of Health chemistry analysis of Ground Zero that would shed some light toward this?