arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
And just why does producing some fabulously successful descriptions of the way nature works suddenly make a person completely immune to irrationality? Newton was a human being, after all.
Is Science getting closer to God and the Bible?
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Slimething
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See also Linus Pauling and Vitamin C.
Foster Zygote
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For example, Newton felt that the idea of the Trinity was a polytheistic blasphemy. Were he alive today he would no doubt incur the scorn of many evangelicals.
Foster Zygote
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Frank Tipler is quite clever as a scientist. By DOC's "logic" this is strong support for Omega Point.
But there is evidence for the God of the Bible:
Historical evidence from Christian and non-Christian sources of the existence of Christ who according to mainline Christianity is God in the flesh. And whose birthday will be celebrated (in 5 days) around the world and is a national holiday in most of Europe and the Western hemisphere.
The empirical evidence of thousands if not millions of changed lives (such as deliverance from addictions, depression etc.)
Many doctor documented healings.
Many fulfilled prophesies. Here is a site that says 2000 out of 2500 have already been fulfilled to the letter (no errors).
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/prophecy.shtml
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bokonon
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If he ever lived (which is doubtful), he's dead now. If he wasn't, he'd be on Oprah.
Buddhism changes lives too. Prison changes lives. This is only evidence that lives change, not that "the god of the bible" had a hand in it.
People sometimes get better with treatment. Imagine that.
Science makes more, and more accurate, predictions. Einstein predicted that starlight would bend around the sun. Bingo.
Your site claims 2000 predictions were fulfilled, but lists only 13. Virtually all of them are predictions of events which are only confirmed in the Bible itself.
This is a pretty weak set of evidence.
slyjoe
Illuminator
What a goofy site. Where does the author come up with those probabilities? Let alone the shoehorning of square pegs intro round holes.
A real question though - there is a lot of mention of predictions about the Jewish messiah, and the author links these prophecies with Jesus. I did not think Jews considered Jesus their messiah, just a prophet?
joobz
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and a billion people celebrate ramadan. A billion celebrate diwali. Appeal to numbers isn't proof.
Here's a question for you. One that I posed before and went largely ignored (not by you), but a question that raises a hard truth.
Let's say that prayer/god does heal.
What's the success rate? Is there any reason to assume that we are better at praying now than before? MEaning, is there any reason to assume that the rate of answered/unanswered prayers will improve over time? In other words, the effectiveness of prayer is the same now as it was 2000 years ago. The effectiveness of prayer now is the same it will be 2000 years into the future. And we know some conditions are completely uneffected by prayer. (Talk to an amputee)
Compare this to modern medicine.
What's the success rate of medicine? Well, the answer depends upon the disease. But overall, the success/cure rate now is better than it was even 100 years ago. The cure rate is better now than it was 10 years ago. There is every reason to assume that it will be better in 10 years and even better still in 100 years.
Why would you put stock in a treatment that has no hope on improving, when you have an alternative which is much more reliable? How does such a terribly ineffective treatment prove god?
Consider this, where was god/prayer during the plague? a disease that is horrific yet easily treated by what we know. God would have known of these things, but did nothing to save the people. Prayer didn't help the estimated 75 million who died from it. (Black_deathWP) But we could have easily stopped it in its tracks with simple antibiotics.
Does god care so little for us to allow 75 million to die horribly? Are you going to say that all 75 million deserved such a death?
Slimething
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There is no historical evidence worth writing about. The recording of a Messiah in Jerusalem centuries after that person lived and died does not qualify. There are no contemporaneous records regarding this individual. This fact is especially troubling because of the fame and renown the bible ascribes to him. Note, for example, that this individual had the major political parties screaming for his head and that this person was able to draw tremendous crowds. Yet, no records of this from either his community or the occupying Roman forces. Don't you find that a little strange?
To be evidence of something, a phenomenon must have no viable alternative explanation or cause. This is not the case with life changes. A case in point would be the deceptive practices of today's healers who take people's money and send them home to die, all the while invoking your god. Additionally, there's a number of people who have been doomed, voluntarily and involuntarily, by belief in gods, yours included.
Please post a couple. Make sure that the raw data behind these stories include signed, witnessed affidavits from the physicians and medical specialists, before and after physical evidence such as x-rays, EKGs, EEGs, etc., and a complete record of all treatments received between diagnosis and cure as well as a record of how the patient fared for the following five years. Fair enough?
Prophecy fulfillment is strictly evidence of FSM, not your god. See? Two can play at this game!
DOC, you've recently taken a big step in admitting that the bible is not a strictly accurate historical document. That does not negate your faith nor your god. Skepticism isn't about turning anyone into an atheist. There are many, many skeptics here who believe in a god and retain a religion. The difference between these people and the rest of the faithful is that they have skeptically examined the claims of their religion, realized there's no proving it but have intelligently concluded that, as there is no evidence against the existence of a god, they would retain their faith. Holding to a religion should a matter of informed choice, not of coercion through fear and guilt.
That being said, science will never get closer to god, unless your god is a physical one. Science is a tool of measurement and discovery of physical realities, not spiritual ones. You're barking up the wrong tree and all you'll achieve is frustration. Science was not designed to do what you are seeking, as evidenced by your post above. Note that all the items of proof you've listed are NOT physical and, therefore, not scientific. If you have found proof of god in the everyday world, good for you. You don't have to convince anyone else of it. Respect science. You owe it more than it owes you.
H3LL
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I'm puzzled on that one too.
He should be a descendant of King David...That would be Joseph's line. Joseph has no input in creating Jesus...He's not his father, Sky-fairy is.
Hey Jesus...Who's ya daddy?
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wollery
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No, there isn't.
The only specific mentions of Jesus are contained in the Bible. The only other even vaguely contemporary account is a short entry in the works of the Roman historian Josephus, which may or may not refer to Jesus. http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/josephus-jesus.html
http://members.aol.com/fljosephus/testimonium.htm
The exact same evidence can be provided for almost any religion you'd care to name.
You want miraculous healings, talk to the Hindus.
It says that, but it doesn't show it. Not a single one of the prophecies listed has independent verification, and there's only 13. I could write a book predicting that things would happen and then write later in the book that they had happened. Does that make me a great prophet?
six7s
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kmortis
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My CPAP machine changed my life, so I should worship it?
wollery
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Oh, how could I have forgotten - No.
Jesus, assuming he existed would most likely have been born in the summer of 6CE. Although the accounts in Luke and Matthew contradict each other.
From here;
Other authors suggest that the name of the governor in Luke is a misspelling, which would make the date 7BC.
Herod died in 4BC, but the first Roman census on record took place in 6CE.
Some more webpages discussing this;
http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/jesus/quirinius.htm
http://www.geocities.com/logic_faith/date_of_birth_jesus_christ.htm
And it most certainly wasn't in December;
http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_date.htm#month
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Posted by DOC
Isaac Newton, the inventor of Calculus,
From "Sir Isaac Newton Scientist and Mathematician"
As mathematician, Newton invented integral calculus, and jointly with Leibnitz, differential calculus. He also calculated a formula for finding the velocity of sound in a gas which was later corrected by Laplace.
Newton made a huge impact on theoretical astronomy. He defined the laws of motion and universal gravitation which he used to predict precisely the motions of stars, and the planets around the sun. Using his discoveries in optics Newton constructed the first reflecting telescope.
http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/95dec/newton.html
Isaac Newton, the inventor of Calculus,
From "Sir Isaac Newton Scientist and Mathematician"
As mathematician, Newton invented integral calculus, and jointly with Leibnitz, differential calculus. He also calculated a formula for finding the velocity of sound in a gas which was later corrected by Laplace.
Newton made a huge impact on theoretical astronomy. He defined the laws of motion and universal gravitation which he used to predict precisely the motions of stars, and the planets around the sun. Using his discoveries in optics Newton constructed the first reflecting telescope.
http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/95dec/newton.html
Why would Newton write 300,000 words on the "Book of Revelation" not to mention his extensive work on the "Book of Daniel" if he didn't believe in the bible? Newton believed he was a good Christian (according to the New Catholic Encyclopedia).
He reminds me a little of Thomas Jefferson, who also considered himself a true Christian. Although, both were not mainline Christians.
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H3LL
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DOC, you have been repeatedly asked to read up on logical fallacies.
Most people here are very familiar with most, if not all logical fallacies.
You have been given links to concise definitions and explanations of logical fallacies.
You are not going to slip a logical fallacy past anyone here.
You use a logical fallacy and it destroys your argument..immediately.
Repeating logical fallacies doesn't make them true...however many times you repeat them.
You keep on using logical fallacies in almost every post.
Why is that?
Most people here are very familiar with most, if not all logical fallacies.
You have been given links to concise definitions and explanations of logical fallacies.
You are not going to slip a logical fallacy past anyone here.
You use a logical fallacy and it destroys your argument..immediately.
Repeating logical fallacies doesn't make them true...however many times you repeat them.
You keep on using logical fallacies in almost every post.
Why is that?
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kmortis
Biomechanoid, Director of IDIOCY (Region 13)
Um...actually, it's not all that troubling. Roman history was written by the educated elite. Jesus and his followers were not part of that elite. Most Roman Citizens ignored what was going on in and around Jerusalem at that time. It wasn't until later, MUCH later, that Christianity got to be popular enough to be written about, at which time they had to shoehorn the comments in.
Think of it this way. There's a TON of local bands around, right? 99% of them are never heard of outside their local environs. One day, one of them makes it big. They get heard by the AOR guy, their song on MySpace catches someone's ear, something external happens that gets them a larger audience. That's when they get press. Were they doing stuff before that? Sure, it's just that TPTB never noticed them.
It's the same thing with Jesus. Chances are, there was a Jesus of Nazareth wandering around. HE may have even done some of the stuff ascribed to him in the gospels. The Romans, however, didn't see him as important enough to comment about because he was background noise. When Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity in the 300's, though, it became REALLY important, and the backfilling began in earnest (not to say that it wasn't going on before, just at that point, it became an Imperial interest)
Cleon
King of the Pod People
You know what, DOC?
At this point, normally I would point you to a bunch of links documenting the history of calculus--which starts centuries before Newton was born.
But right now, I'm simply not going to waste my time. I know you're completely incapable of conceding a point, even when it's been firmly established that it's wrong.
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