Memory Experiment

[plumjam]

Memory recall is an inherent/autonomous function similar to say breathing. Sure, one can influence their breathing to a point…but that does not mean full conscious awareness and control of the diaphragm, or other muscles required for breathing.

Similarly, would you be able to explain to another person how to breathe if (somehow) they'd never done it before?

 

[Corpse Cruncher]

Yeah, but presumably the alien has no idea what mental jog or key marker would be, or be referring to. Like you could maybe show him a saucer from the kitchen cupboard, but then he might say 'two sugars, thanks, nanoo nanoo' ;-)


You surely are aware when you're making a conscious effort to do something, no? Think constipation.


yeah, it's interesting.. seems like sometimes memories come up automatically, and unbidded.. other times they have to be mined


I think you can.

No matter how hard you hide or suppress a memory, a marker will jog it back out eventually. It will take time but then what's the hurry unless they are invading?

A damaged memory I would think this might not work for.

I am awake but does that mean I am conscious of it. My blood rushes around my body; but unless I cut myself I have no conscious way of knowing it.

What is the conscious?

 

[Locknar]

Similarly, would you be able to explain to another person how to breathe if (somehow) they'd never done it before?

What part of "inherent/autonomous function" didn't you understand?

 

[Matt the Poet]

Experiences go into his memory store, he just doesn't know how to access that store in order to bring memories to mind.
Entirely reasonable IMO.

Only if you believe that ‘remembering things’ and ‘choosing to remember things’ are separate processes.

This, I suspect, is the question going begging in your whole argument.

 

[voidx]

Experiences go into his memory store, he just doesn't know how to access that store in order to bring memories to mind.
Entirely reasonable IMO.

Still flawed. You've made no distinction between long and short term memory. If he was unable to access his memory period, I fail to see how he could function at all. As mentioned, how does he recall where he is? Who he is? Who you are? Why your asking other people about their first school?

As has been mentioned, we can't explain how we "consciously" recall memories because our consciousness has very little to do with the actual process. Input comes in and kicks off memory recall in the brain. You do not need to be consciously aware of this process, in order for it to take place.

You make the mistake of assuming consciousness is the be all and end all of causation in human experience, and that's simply incorrect.

Take Locknar's advice and go do some reading, which would actually be productive in helping you understand how memory works, rather than creating loaded and self serving scenario's that simply point out "flaws" in how you seem to think memory works.

 

[schlitt]

How does the alien communicate, or do anything for that matter?
The ability to speak uses memory.
The alien could not be conscious and coherent, without being able to access its memory.
The scenario is impossible.

 

[plumjam]

Still flawed. You've made no distinction between long and short term memory.

Not needed.

If he was unable to access his memory period, I fail to see how he could function at all. As mentioned, how does he recall where he is? Who he is? Who you are?

Total amnesiacs function enough to be able to sit on a sofa. He doesn't need anything, except my instructions on how to access his stored memories.

Why your asking other people about their first school?

Huh?

As has been mentioned, we can't explain how we "consciously" recall memories because our consciousness has very little to do with the actual process. Input comes in and kicks off memory recall in the brain. You do not need to be consciously aware of this process, in order for it to take place.

Yeah, but when you brought memories of your first school to mind you consciously did something. What is it that you did? Can you put it into words?

You make the mistake of assuming consciousness is the be all and end all of causation in human experience, and that's simply incorrect.

I've said nothing of the sort.

Take Locknar's advice and go do some reading, which would actually be productive in helping you understand how memory works, rather than creating loaded and self serving scenario's that simply point out "flaws" in how you seem to think memory works.

Chill

 

[Locknar]

How does the alien communicate, or do anything for that matter?
The ability to speak uses memory.
The alien could not be conscious and coherent, without being able to access its memory.
The scenario is impossible.

Shhhh....don't confuse the issue with logic, or the obvious

 

[Locknar]

Similarly, would you be able to explain to another person how to breathe if (somehow) they'd never done it before?

Better yet...as you are playing the "I know something you don't know" game...why don't you tell us how you'd do this?

 

[Denver]

Simple, I think he needs a mental jog to recall the memory. I just need to find the key to unlock it. Finding that key in which to mentally jog that recall is the more trickier part. Like anybody who has experienced memory problems, key markers are used to help jog the memory or fix it...

This also is used to explain people who say they have precognitive dreams. They have many dreams every night, but don't remember most of them, because they are all 'misses'. But when, finally, a real life situation becomes similar, it jogs their memory of that particular dream, and they perceive this as having had a precognitive dream. Since none of their 'misses' come to mind to compare against a 'hit', it seems to them they have a significant rate of accuracy.

 

[plumjam]

How does the alien communicate, or do anything for that matter?
The ability to speak uses memory.
The alien could not be conscious and coherent, without being able to access its memory.
The scenario is impossible.

No point really in trying to pick the scenario apart.
If people don't like the scenario we can return to the original question.

When you brought your first school to mind what did you do? Would you be able to explain to someone who had never done that how to do it themselves?

 

[schlitt]

Total amnesiacs function enough to be able to sit on a sofa. He doesn't need anything, except my instructions on how to access his stored memories.

This is such a great example of how you fail to extrapolate thoughts to encompass the big picture.

An amnesiac is still accessing the majority of their memory. There are certain parts of the brain where the connections need to reestablish. Talking, sitting, standing, walking is programmed into the mind using a type of memory.
As has been explained to you memory is an "inherent/autonomous function" and it is required on a certain level to be able to function. varying degrees if memory capability exist, yes, but the inherent ability is always needed for a coherent person, now matter how the capacity may vary.

 

[Denver]

Yeah, but when you brought memories of your first school to mind you consciously did something. What is it that you did? Can you put it into words?

How about something like: An external stimulus (your post) set in motion the machinery in the brain to fire those set of neurons which matched against your stimulus, which cause that appropriate memory to become active.

Here's another question:

Imagine your social security number.
Now imagine Bill Clinton's social security number.

How long did it take you to figure out that you did not know Bill Clinton's social security number? Did you have to search your whole brain for it? Did you have a specific piece of knowledge in there that said "I do not know Bill Clinton's social security number?". What was your process?

I don't know how this relates to this thread. But, then again, I'm still not sure what the point of this thread is. So, it's appropriate in that sense.

 

[schlitt]

No point really in trying to pick the scenario apart.
If people don't like the scenario we can return to the original question.

When you brought your first school to mind what did you do? Would you be able to explain to someone who had never done that how to do it themselves?

The problem is though, it is just not possible, because the person you were explaining it to would not be in a state to receive an explanation.

Could you explain to a rock how to access its memory? No, just as you could not explain to flesh and blood that has no coherent consciousness.
If in the scenario the person you are explaining it to has a consciousness... then the explanation is not needed, as there are already accessing memory facilities.

 

[voidx]

Not needed.

It kind of is actually. Otherwise the assumption is that he cannot access any memory either short or long term which carries serious implications for our little alien friend. If he was only denied access to his long term memory, then that might make sense.

Total amnesiacs function enough to be able to sit on a sofa. He doesn't need anything, except my instructions on how to access his stored memories.

Describe to me the precise damage to both long and short term memory that total amnesiacs suffer from. If you're going to use it as a point, I'm assuming you know the detaile answer here.

Huh?

Read your own OP again.

Yeah, but when you brought memories of your first school to mind you consciously did something. What is it that you did? Can you put it into words?

"I" as in my consciousness did not bring any memories back. I received input from you asking what my first school was. Humans being visual creatures I tried to visualize what was my first school. As well as going through a list of all the schools I'd ever attended to be sure I wasn't "forgetting" any. But thats only the tip of the iceburg, the deeper process of memory recall happens beyond the scope of my consciousness. I can't explain it to you fully as I'm not a neurologist or a specialist in human memory, and because I'm not conciously privy to how my brian recalls memory.

So again, go do some reading.

I've said nothing of the sort.

Fair enough, so given that you're not claiming conscious is the be all and end all of causation, why do you think we necessarily "know" how to consciously describe how we recall memories, or how we "prompt" conscious memory recall?

Chill

I'm fine as is thanks. Seriously though. Going and doing some research and reading into how we currently understand how human memory storage and recollection works would be far and away more productive than putting little imaginary "what-if" scenario's together. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[plumjam]

Better yet...as you are playing the "I know something you don't know" game...why don't you tell us how you'd do this?

Ok.
I'm not playing the "I know something.." game.
My point is this: I have no idea what I did in order to bring my first school to mind, but whatever I did I did it easily, and have been doing so since I was in my stroller. Yet I have no way to put into words what I did.
So a kind of paradox arises. I know how to do something, but I have absolutely no clue at all how I did it.

This, in fact, applies to all our conscious activities.
I haven't seen it pointed out anywhere, so I thought I would.

 

[schlitt]

Ok.
I'm not playing the "I know something.." game.
My point is this: I have no idea what I did in order to bring my first school to mind, but whatever I did I did it easily, and have been doing so since I was in my stroller. Yet I have no way to put into words what I did.
So a kind of paradox arises. I know how to do something, but I have absolutely no clue at all how I did it.

This, in fact, applies to all our conscious activities.
I haven't seen it pointed out anywhere, so I thought I would.

I can see what you are getting at. Instinct is a mysterious thing.

 

[voidx]

Ok.
I'm not playing the "I know something.." game.
My point is this: I have no idea what I did in order to bring my first school to mind, but whatever I did I did it easily, and have been doing so since I was in my stroller. Yet I have no way to put into words what I did.
So a kind of paradox arises. I know how to do something, but I have absolutely no clue at all how I did it.

This, in fact, applies to all our conscious activities.
I haven't seen it pointed out anywhere, so I thought I would.

How is that a paradox? Your consciousness isn't the central meaner of the entity which is you. It isn't the seat of causation. You are not consciously aware or privy to the vast majority of processing that goes on within your body and your brain. Consciousness is used for higher level abstract thought. Looking for patterns and analysis of the vast swath of experiential data your senses take in.

The question really is, why are you suprised that you've no consciously aware idea of how your body accomplishes all its non-conscious tasks? Why would you expect to?

 

[plumjam]

How about something like: An external stimulus (your post) set in motion the machinery in the brain to fire those set of neurons which matched against your stimulus, which cause that appropriate memory to become active.

Yes, but you could have consciously decided not to try to memorise your school.. so the whole process, in this case, was not at all automatic.. it involved conscious intention.

Here's another question:

Imagine your social security number.
Now imagine Bill Clinton's social security number.

How long did it take you to figure out that you did not know Bill Clinton's social security number? Did you have to search your whole brain for it? Did you have a specific piece of knowledge in there that said "I do not know Bill Clinton's social security number?". What was your process?

I don't know how this relates to this thread. But, then again, I'm still not sure what the point of this thread is. So, it's appropriate in that sense.

yeah, I consciously figured out that I wouldn't know Bill's number.. the point is that I have no idea what I did to consciously figure that out, yet it was easy to do
So how is it that we easily do things, things which we have no idea how they are done?

 

[Locknar]

Ok.
I'm not playing the "I know something.." game.
My point is this: I have no idea what I did in order to bring my first school to mind, but whatever I did I did it easily, and have been doing so since I was in my stroller. Yet I have no way to put into words what I did.
So a kind of paradox arises. I know how to do something, but I have absolutely no clue at all how I did it.

This, in fact, applies to all our conscious activities.
I haven't seen it pointed out anywhere, so I thought I would.

Not understanding autonomic functions, instinct, reflexes, etc. is hardly the basis for a paradox.