Is there evidence your god beliefs are true while other god beliefs are false?

[Skeptic Ginger]

...Why are we hashing this issue between a person who obviously does believe in a form of a deity and one who doesn't, when one of the people in the debate can't even speak to the subject of the OP, UNLESS, there is alternative motive in why the thread was created, and sustained?

And I believe there to be. An Atheist can't answer to why his/her religious beliefs are better than mine, BECAUSE THEY DON"T HAVE ANY....

This is a false premise which underlies what you, Christian and DR in some respects don't get about the OP. I certainly have a belief about god beliefs. They all seem the same to me. I see no reason any god beliefs are 'special'.

But I'm not asking about which belief is better, or who is better, or why something is better. I am asking about theists viewing their god beliefs as 'special'. Other god beliefs are not viewed as being 'special'. Other non-evidence based beliefs are not viewed as being 'special'.

You all seem hung up on the values and I'm not talking about values. Is that a defense mechanism? You can't answer the question, why are certain god beliefs 'special', so you attack the straw man that I am arguing atheism is superior? If you pick an outcome, science can measure which is better. But science cannot pick the outcome and therefore cannot determine which is the superior world view.

Science can address morals and values only if you add the criteria one needs to make those determinations. Unless we supply the criteria, science cannot tell us if theism is superior to atheism. Science can, however, address the validity of god beliefs. Science can be used to determine if there is an empirical or qualitative difference between Christian god beliefs and ancient Greek god beliefs. If there is no empirical difference, then calling one set of beliefs myths and the other "faith based" is disingenuous.

Who is superior and who is inferior is relative to the criteria you supply to the equation. Theists might be happier, belief in life after death is comforting, belonging to the church community might be rewarding. Atheism might result in a longer life for someone who turns to science for health care than for someone who prays. Atheists may have more fulfilling lives not spent wasted on worship rituals.

Assumptions that this thread is about who is better are ignorantly unfounded. DR draws the wrong conclusions about a lot of things and this is one of them. I did not choose to be an atheist, I am one because I followed the evidence. I could no more choose to believe in gods than a gay person can choose to be attracted to the opposite sex. Either you conclude there are gods or you conclude there are no gods. It doesn't involve judgment about who is superior. That doesn't mean I don't make value judgments. But it does mean asking the questions about god beliefs asked in the OP do not have to involve a value judgment.

The question isn't whose beliefs are superior. The question is, why are your beliefs (if you are a theist) special or different from all the other god beliefs you dismiss as false?

 

[slingblade]

Hey slingblade - It's an open forum . . . I'll post what I feel on the OP, and I'll address what I like, just like everyone else has done.

If you don't like it, ignore me.

*** **.

 

[V23]

This is a false premise which underlies what you, Christian and DR in some respects don't get about the OP. I certainly have a belief about god beliefs. They all seem the same to me. I see no reason any god beliefs are 'special'.

But I'm not asking about which belief is better, or who is better, or why something is better. I am asking about theists viewing their god beliefs as 'special'. Other god beliefs are not viewed as being 'special'. Other non-evidence based beliefs are not viewed as being 'special'.

Lando Calrissian: Pull up, all fighters Pull up . . .

Admiral Ackbar: It's a trap!

 

[arthwollipot]

Sorry, just lurking. These questions interest me too, because I feel the same way about the various religious beliefs that slingblade does. I too wonder why people feel that their own religious belief is different, qualititavely, from the beliefs of others. I've never had a satisfactory answer.

 

[This is The End]

Tolkien's Middle Earth series of books are great works of literature (they don't suck), while Rowlings' Potter *cough*series*cough* of *cough*books*cough* are horrible works of literature (they suck).

This is not opinion, but fact.

Go ahead, ask me to provide evidence, I dare you!



Oh, you mean true as in "exists in reality", not as in "true to form"?

Perhaps change the topic to "Is there evidence your god beliefs exist in reality (i.e. outside of fantasy/imagination) while other god beliefs do not" so others aren't likewise confused?

 

[V23]

Tolkien's Middle Earth series of books are great works of literature (they don't suck), while Rowlings' Potter *cough*series*cough* of *cough*books*cough* are horrible works of literature (they suck).

This is not opinion, but fact.

Go ahead, ask me to provide evidence, I dare you!



Oh, you mean true as in "exists in reality", not as in "true to form"?

Perhaps change the topic to "Is there evidence your god beliefs exist in reality (i.e. outside of fantasy/imagination) while other god beliefs do not" so others aren't likewise confused?

Well . . .that's at least an legitimate OP that Atheists could include themselves in, instead of just baiting in believers and beating them in the head because their bored.

I don't know if I would participate in it though, however, I have always said that evidence for a particular religious/faith based belief is only relative to the individual who believes in it.

However, as far as I am concerned, reality is up for grabs and it is always relative to the individual who experiences it. If there is a universal reality, don't think that there is enough evidence that anyone could bring me that I couldn't refute by simply saying, "How do I not know that YOU are a figment of my imagination?"

However, I do accept as an axiom that some form of universal reality/shared consciousness exists.

For now.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Tolkien's Middle Earth series of books are great works of literature (they don't suck), while Rowlings' Potter *cough*series*cough* of *cough*books*cough* are horrible works of literature (they suck).

This is not opinion, but fact.

Go ahead, ask me to provide evidence, I dare you!



Oh, you mean true as in "exists in reality", not as in "true to form"?

Perhaps change the topic to "Is there evidence your god beliefs exist in reality (i.e. outside of fantasy/imagination) while other god beliefs do not" so others aren't likewise confused?

I think the confusion comes from the preconceived perspective of the viewer, not from the question. And I've done a fair amount of posting explaining that this is not about whose beliefs are superior.

From my perspective, there was never a question in this thread asking anyone for evidence of why their god beliefs were superior to other god beliefs. The question was about having no evidence one's own god beliefs were true while applying scientific scrutiny to other god beliefs than their own. Here is what the OP actually asks:

There seems to be a rash of atheism vs theism threads going on right now. Several have requested atheists support their conclusions about the non-existence of gods. I could ask what evidence do god believers have for their theist conclusions but I already know the usual answers. I'm not interested in any of the faith explanations, they belong solely to the believer.

But I am interested in the evidence one has for believing in one particular version of god over another. If you are just going to describe intangible inner feelings, there's no need. That isn't evidence. If you are going to make some value statement, monotheism is superior to polytheism, I doubt you can actually support that claim but feel free to offer your evidence.

I am interested in how theists can support their cognitive dissonance of recognizing other god beliefs are false, yet justifying their own gods beliefs are true. And why do you think you just happened to be born where 'true' god beliefs were common and those born into cultures with other god beliefs were not so 'blessed'? Or do you think the fact people tend to believe in the religions they grew up with is worth considering as evidence against the validity of any god beliefs?

I am challenging believers here but please, I mean no disrespect. This is about evidence and beliefs, not about who's right and who's wrong.

While there is one reference that if value is the empirical reason one wanted to use, they were not limited, but the reference to "I doubt you could prove" clarifies what I said more than once in that OP, this isn't about "values". It couldn't be more clear that the question is about evidence, not values.

Yet values were read into that post and the actual theme of the post was completely overlooked. Was it because it wasn't clear? I think not. It was clear to any reader not affected by a preconceived notion the question was about values. And were I to hypothesize why, I would also speculate that perhaps the fact a theist is unaware they are giving their own god beliefs special treatment also made them unaware that was the gist question being asked.

 

[V23]

Perhaps change the topic to "Is there evidence your god beliefs exist in reality (i.e. outside of fantasy/imagination) while other god beliefs do not" so others aren't likewise confused?

I still like how you put the question though . . .

 

[arthwollipot]

Seems to me that putting the question in a way that won't either be misinterpreted (which has happened in this thread) or be offensive to someone (which has happened in this thread) is the hardest part.

 

[V23]

exactly

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm pretty sure the reaction would have been the same regardless of how the OP worded it. But now that we have cleared up the matter 3 pages later, I doubt it will change anything in the thread. People get defensive when you challenge beliefs they cannot support or contradictions they prefer to remain in denial about.

I see V23 happily keeping the subject changed to the evil intent of skeptigirl's OP and her inadequate wording of the question (even though not a single atheist misread it). That's a good way to avoid addressing the real question.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Seems to me that putting the question in a way that won't either be misinterpreted (which has happened in this thread) or be offensive to someone (which has happened in this thread) is the hardest part.

This is annoying since no evidence has been presented the OP wasn't clear. Yes, we have the theists misinterpreting the OP, that might suggest a problem. But I went back and quoted the OP. I bolded and underlined every pertinent noun and adjective in it.

It's theist denial, and anger at having beliefs challenged, not the wording of the OP. Show me specifically what in that OP wasn't clear?

OnlyTellsTruths has the hindsight observation that the misinterpretation of a clear question occurred. I suppose I should have psychically predicted as much and repeated my question in multiple more ways than I did.

 

[arthwollipot]

It's theist denial, and anger at having beliefs challenged, not the wording of the OP. Show me specifically what in that OP wasn't clear?

Since the OP was directed specifically and unambiguously at theists, and it is the theists who reacted wrongly to it, perhaps we can work together to try to find a way to phrase the question in a way that doesn't cause these reactions?

I agree, the way you worded the question didn't appear challenging to me - but then again, I am not a theist, and I don't know why theists react the way they do to things that to me appear totally innocuous. And since I am as interested in a proper answer to the question as you are, I think it would be worthwhile trying to come up with a more theist-friendly way of asking the question.

 

[V23]

I'm pretty sure the reaction would have been the same regardless of how the OP worded it. But now that we have cleared up the matter 3 pages later, I doubt it will change anything in the thread. People get defensive when you challenge beliefs they cannot support or contradictions they prefer to remain in denial about.

I see V23 happily keeping the subject changed to the evil intent of skeptigirl's OP and her inadequate wording of the question (even though not a single atheist misread it). That's a good way to avoid addressing the real question.

Actually, the more I think about it, I dont know if you meant the thread to be a gladator pit or not.

(Bring out the Christians . . .release the lions)

All I know is that the OP was doomed because of the people that frequent the board, and that is probally the truth. I have no idea, really if you had alternative motivations, (you might not of), or you were just responding to another thread that was based from a theistic perspective, (which may have been your motivation, I again do not know.)

I have already said that I cant really answer the OP because, and I quote myself, "As I said earlier, I dont get into whether one's religious beliefs are more true than another, only if one system of belief is more valid.

In my opinion, a validity of belief is defined as a belief that actually works for you, and you not working for it. Unfortuantely too many people out there work for their beliefs, literally being a slave to them.

Some doctrines of Christanity, Islam, and Judasim fall into this cat. in my opinion."

And the reason that I maintain that stance is because I know that the only thing that can be gained from the OP is the obvious flame war that will be following an individual who struts out here and claims that "My God has a bigger penis than your God because . . . " and we dont accomplish anything other than a few Atheists get to stroke their ego with the kind of semnatic gymnastics that get us circular arguments like. "Can God create a rock to heavy for him to lift . . " and other such garbage . . .

 

[arthwollipot]

So the "validity" of a belief has no bearing - to you - on how "true" it is?

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

I think the confusion comes from the preconceived perspective of the viewer, not from the question. And I've done a fair amount of posting explaining that this is not about whose beliefs are superior.

From my perspective, there was never a question in this thread asking anyone for evidence of why their god beliefs were superior to other god beliefs. The question was about having no evidence one's own god beliefs were true while applying scientific scrutiny to other god beliefs than their own. Here is what the OP actually asks:While there is one reference that if value is the empirical reason one wanted to use, they were not limited, but the reference to "I doubt you could prove" clarifies what I said more than once in that OP, this isn't about "values". It couldn't be more clear that the question is about evidence, not values.

Yet values were read into that post and the actual theme of the post was completely overlooked. Was it because it wasn't clear? I think not. It was clear to any reader not affected by a preconceived notion the question was about values. And were I to hypothesize why, I would also speculate that perhaps the fact a theist is unaware they are giving their own god beliefs special treatment also made them unaware that was the gist question being asked.

I think I understand what you are saying better, and still - sorry. I see no point in taking part. It seems you want scientific evidence on why what I believe is true while what V23 believes is not true. All the while - you believe what each of us believes is not true. What's the point? If I meet V23 in person someday then maybe we can ponder nebulas and the significance of things and share any scientific evidence we have.

None of my threads have been having you tell me someone elses beliefs were wrong except in regards to your general non-belief in anything supernatural. (So I suppose I'm asking why you think everyones beliefs are wrong.)

And, I might add, all my threads were built on posts in other threads. For example: The Athiests here kept saying there is no evidence for God - so I asked what do you consider as evidence. Scientific evidence was the fairly unanomous reply. Thus the subsequent threads that I posted about scientific evidence, etc.

Maybe I should start a thread called: Is there evidence your best ice cream flavor beliefs are true while other best ice cream beliefs are false? If you don't believe there is such a thing as ice cream any answer I give will be meaningless.

 

[V23]

lol

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I have learned from my profession and education that people often cannot see what they cannot verbalize. Not many people recognized what nurses actually did until we started to describe nursing diagnoses. And some observers could tell you a patient was about to crash but they called it intuition until we got better at describing what we were observing. I remember great frustration once watching a child struggle for O2 only to have the physician on the phone doubt my assessment because I described the skin as mottled and that didn't communicate struggling to breathe to him. Now I would have no trouble describing what I saw.

Here we have atheists understanding the question right off the bat. And we have theists drawing on their existing concepts and then missing what the question was about. That is the concept of special treatment for one's own god beliefs while applying skepticism to everything else. Skeptic theists and scientist theists have been developing rationalizations for their irrational god beliefs. Define God as untestable, call the conclusions "faith based" and claim that this "faith based" 'thing' somehow exists along side of science and skepticism.

And most atheist skeptics and scientists have been satisfied with these 'special' rules for 'special' god beliefs. I recognized this same inability to see that one was applying special rules to personal god beliefs in the recent thread asking, Should Skeptics, by definition, be Atheists? The atheists in the thread knew exactly what was being said, but at least some of the theists didn't just disagree or admit to and ignore the special treatment they were giving their own god beliefs, some of them truly seemed to not get the concept. How could they be unaware their god beliefs were just god beliefs? Maybe those were the god beliefs the individual chose to personally believe, but they were still just god beliefs like any other god beliefs.

Somewhere there is a disconnect. It isn't simply choosing one god belief over another. It is a failure to recognize one's own god beliefs are the same thing categorically as any god beliefs.

Well there's the link but the examples are dispersed among 42 pages, suffice it to say, the reactions from theists were similar to those in this thread, very defensive when most people repeatedly responded separating the fact god beliefs were not skeptical beliefs from the claims one who had god beliefs was then not a skeptic. If I come across more examples I'll post them below.

Looking back at the reactions to this thread, I believe that lack of conceptualization at least partially explains the reactions to this thread.

 

[V23]

So the "validity" of a belief has no bearing - to you - on how "true" it is?

Hmmm . . .I would have to start a completly new thread to answer this one in whole, but I will give you the general gist.

A valid belief, to me, is a belief that "works" for me. In other words, from a totally religious/spiritual point of view, I will only accept a belief in something that alows me to gain results for what I want, even if those results are only tangible and realitive to me.

A belief, again in regards to anything spiritual/religious, that would be considered more "true" than another one, for me, would be ludicrious. All of them in one sense or another or one perspective or another is true, false and meaningless.

To me, beliefs are tools.

Accept them or not based on whether I am going to get something out of it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think I understand what you are saying better, and still - sorry. I see no point in taking part. It seems you want scientific evidence on why what I believe is true while what V23 believes is not true. All the while - you believe what each of us believes is not true. What's the point? If I meet V23 in person someday then maybe we can ponder nebulas and the significance of things and share any scientific evidence we have.

None of my threads have been having you tell me someone elses beliefs were wrong except in regards to your general non-belief in anything supernatural. (So I suppose I'm asking why you think everyones beliefs are wrong.)

And, I might add, all my threads were built on posts in other threads. For example: The Athiests here kept saying there is no evidence for God - so I asked what do you consider as evidence. Scientific evidence was the fairly unanomous reply. Thus the subsequent threads that I posted about scientific evidence, etc.

Maybe I should start a thread called: Is there evidence your best ice cream flavor beliefs are true while other best ice cream beliefs are false? If you don't believe there is such a thing as ice cream any answer I give will be meaningless.

You still don't get it, reinforcing the conclusions I hypothesized in my last post.

I don't want you to compare your god beliefs to V23's god beliefs, I want you to compare your special god beliefs (the ones you believe) to your not special god beliefs, (the ones you don't believe).