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The reason for a death penalty

Yeah, that works out just wonderfully in epic fairy tales. And in Harry Potter, Harry's mercy eventually saves him from Wormtail (though Harry does eventually have to execute Voldemort). And of course in Die Hard, all the bad guys get what they deserve without any damn courts to get in the way. Why can't real life be like that?

I like the epic tales where the bad guys win. I secretly cheer for Sauron and was really hoping Luke would take up Dad's galaxy-ruling offer. But that's another thread.


Also, I was pissed when Jesus-Harry died and then rose again with the power of salvation. Yuck.



Anyway, few here arguing in favor of the limited use of the death penalty are "eager" to deal out death. AS for myself, I would only be in favor of it when the benefits of doing so, as far as I could reasonably and fairly determine, outweigh the benefits of not doing so.
Well that's the real catch isn't it? I've only just started my legal education, but I can safely say that's a REALLY big catch.
 
(SNIP)

I think disregarding a solution because it isn't perfect is unacceptable, even in this case.

That's what others on the thread have said, but I think that that killing an innocent person is more than unacceptable (It was more of an understatement), IMO it's morally reprehensible. And as long as it is possible to kill the wrong person, I would prefer to err on the conservative side.

I question that, but even if so, it's because of how we "implement" the death penalty, not because of the thing itself.

That's what Tricky pointed out but I think it is important that we provide a condemned prisoner every opportunity to use the system, as it was designed, to make sure he isn't guilty or that he deserves a lesser sentence. In any event, it is more expensive to prosecute and house a death row inmate.

And if we could only improve our prison system, perhaps we would be more successful in rehabilitating the prisoner.
 
Also, I was pissed when Jesus-Harry died and then rose again with the power of salvation. Yuck.
That was pretty lame. Of course, Voldemort rose again too, so it was a little better than the biblical version. He had one more shot.


Well that's the real catch isn't it? I've only just started my legal education, but I can safely say that's a REALLY big catch.
It is indeed, and I think it is safe to say that we won't hash out all the details of that "catch" in this little thread when legal scholars have whole books on the subject. That's why I won't answer stupid questions like "Exactly what type of psychological tests would you require," or any Larson List.

My statement is based on what I call the rule of absolutes which states, "Absolutes are rare". (I tried saying "There are no absolutes", but I got numerous reminders that the statement is itself and absolute.) Anyway, based on this rule, to which I have never found an exception outside of the world of mathematics, there is likely to be some situation under which the death penalty would be appropriate. It's not at the "kill all criminals" end of the spectrum or at the "never kill any criminals" end of the spectrum (though it's closer to that) but it floats, allowing good and honest people to use evidence and reason to decide when the death penalty is appropriate.

Now, let me give you a little personal story to illustrate in what general region I place the mark.

I have a good friend who was in the news not too long ago. She was in the news because she helped track down Ira Einhorn, the so-called "Unicorn Killer" who had jumped bail from his murder trial (Yes, he made bail because he had some wealthy friends who paid and vouched for him) and fled to Europe. Ira had almost certainly killed a girl. It was his girlfriend, whose body they found bludgeoned and decaying in a trunk in his closet. He was caught when the neighbors complained about the smell. Ira was a hippy-like guru of the sixties and was friends with people like Jerry Reubin and Abby Hoffman, but he was also well connected and had wealthy friends.

So Ira jumped bail and lived the good life in Europe for sixteen years, marrying a Swedish woman and pretty much living off his connections. He was a silver-tongued devil, Ira. While he was gone, a US court convicted him in absentia and sentenced him to life in prison without parole. Ira might have been thinking, "BFD, it is more work to find me and bring me back than the US will ever undertake." He was actually right in that. What he didn't count on was the tenacity of the private citizens who, for sixteen years, continued to follow his trail. In 1997, they got him, living in luxury in Champagne-Mouton, France. The problem was that France didn't recognize trials in absentia and they weren't sure that he would get a "fair trial" in the US because they oppose the death penalty, so for a long time, they wouldn't extradite him. Finally they cut a deal that he would guarantee he would get a new trial and not be subject to the death penalty.

Ira came home, stood trial, was easily convicted and is now in prison. I know this because my friend who helped track him down was the sister of his victim. She spent sixteen years in hell, wondering if he would ever come back and if he might want revenge on the family that had been chasing him. She can finally sleep at nights. A little.

Now to the point of my story. While Ira is not as bad as Louse, in my earlier fiction, he was a killer without remorse. He never showed any emotion either when they found the body in his room (He claimed it had been planted there by the government because they were out to get him) or when he was convicted. If he isn't evil, then the word has no meaning.

So, do you think I would want Ira executed? If you said "yes" you'd be wrong. He lived free for sixteen years without committing another such atrocity, so it would be hard for me to claim he satisfied the definition of "continuing danger to society". I do feel sorry for my friend who still has nightmares thinking that he is still alive. I can understand why anger and desire for revenge would make her glad to push the plunger or pull the switch or fire the gun or open the trap door, but that doesn't change my feeling that Ira, while among the most detestable scum on earth, is not a candidate for the death penalty. At least, that's what I feel most of the time.

The scary thing is, that as bad as Einhorn is, he is not the worst organism containing Homo sapiens DNA that is in existence (I hesitate to call them "humans"). There are worse. Meaner. Scarier. Louse is a fictional creation, but he probably has a real analog somewhere. Sometimes in this thing we call humanity, we have to scrape out the cancer.
 
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That's a very good post, Tricky and I would nominate it if you weren't the Dictator.
 
That's what others on the thread have said, but I think that that killing an innocent person is more than unacceptable (It was more of an understatement), IMO it's morally reprehensible. And as long as it is possible to kill the wrong person, I would prefer to err on the conservative side.
Based on that logic, let's not ever convict anyone and send them to jail, because it's possible to convict the wrong person.

Sorry, doesn't wash.


That's what Tricky pointed out but I think it is important that we provide a condemned prisoner every opportunity to use the system, as it was designed,
Since the design sucks, I quite disagree. A condemned prisoner should get REASONABLE opportunity for appeals etc, not excessive (granted subjective terms).

And if we could only improve our prison system, perhaps we would be more successful in rehabilitating the prisoner.
Not relevant. This isn't about rehabilitation; it's about the death penalty and the punishment fitting the crime.
 
Most of the arguments presented so far deal with either the moral or teleological basis of the death penalty...

My objection to the death penalty is based not on whether the death penalty is moral or immoral. Rather, it is based on the long-term effects of the death penalty on the correctional staff who administer this unique form of justice. Killing an otherwise health individual is not a natural thing to do in this day and age, even if it's prescribed by law. There have been several qualitative studies of this issue and they all point to significantly increased levels of post-traumatic stress disorder in those who work as executioners than those who work solely as correctional officers...

Given the potential for serious mental health issues for staff who administer the death penalty, I can only conclude that this form of justice is cruel and unusual not for the offender but for the executioner who has to live with his or her actions...

Having working in two state correctional systems that administer the death penalty, I can tell you from experience that staff have a hard time coping with the aftermath of an execution. The American Correctional Association even sets standards for post-execution interventions and mental health screening for execution staff because of the almost certain potential for severe psychological repercussions...

So rather than arguing about the morality of killing someone who has done something heinous, how about arguing about the effects of the death penalty on the executioners who have to live with what they've done? As a matter of public policy, how can we have staff engage in something that is so detrimental to their psychological well-being with its concomitant effects on their families and communities?
 
Then don't do it. Nobody is forcing anyone else to take the role of executioner. Sorry but while I'm all for whatever psychological assistance such a person wants/needs and not saying it should be disregarded, IMO that's a ridiculous reason not to implement capital punishment. Based on that logic, we shouldn't send them to jail either, because seeing people rot away bit by bit in jail is upsetting too. In fact no one should ever be punished if it's upsetting to the punishers, no matter how deserved.
 
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Based on that logic, let's not ever convict anyone and send them to jail, because it's possible to convict the wrong person.

Sorry, doesn't wash.

I do not get it.
How do you send criminals to jail, if you do not convict them first?

Not relevant. This isn't about rehabilitation; it's about the death penalty and the punishment fitting the crime.

The fact that death penalty would fit any crime, is totally debatable
 
Sometimes in this thing we call humanity, we have to scrape out the cancer.

We should all take heed when someone starts talking about certain groups of humans as being worthy only of extermination.
 
We should all take heed when someone starts talking about certain groups of humans as being worthy only of extermination.
Yeah, that ethnic group consisting of sociopathic homocidal convicted criminals is being unfairly discriminated against!
 
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Yeah, that ethnic group consisting of sociopathic homocidal convicted criminals is being unfairly discriminated against!

Unfairly? You mean to say your criteria are fair?

Let's go with that:

If you want to exterminate a certain group of people, you need to determine exactly who qualifies for extermination. And explain why it is morally right.

Exactly.

Because the moment you are fuzzy about this, you are slipping down a slippery slope with a very sharp edge.

Can you do that? Define exactly who deserves to be exterminated, and why?
 
Unfairly? You mean to say your criteria are fair?

Let's go with that:

If you want to exterminate a certain group of people, you need to determine exactly who qualifies for extermination. And explain why it is morally right.

Exactly.

Because the moment you are fuzzy about this, you are slipping down a slippery slope with a very sharp edge.

Can you do that? Define exactly who deserves to be exterminated, and why?
People carrying guns on planes.
 
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No, Claus. If your OCD little brain can't figure it out, see post #103.

On one hand, you say "each case is different".

On the other, you want to kill the "group consisting of sociopathic homocidal (sic) convicted criminals".

You don't know, do you? You're just making it up as you go, aren't you?
 
I do not get it.
How do you send criminals to jail, if you do not convict them first?
I have no idea what brought on this comment. Who's saying anything different?

The fact that death penalty would fit any crime, is totally debatable
I assume you're saying "it's debatable if a crime exists that merits the death penalty." There's no debate in my mind whatsoever, but to each their own.
 
On one hand, you say "each case is different".

On the other, you want to kill the "group consisting of sociopathic homocidal (sic) convicted criminals".
Sarcasm is wasted on you, isn't it Claus?

You don't know, do you? You're just making it up as you go, aren't you?
Actually, no. I wrote all my posts more than ten years ago and I have them carefully filed on index cards. Whenever I see a post that needs a response, I go to the catalogue and select the exact response that fits the situation. This one is card number SC23775-CFL.
 
Sarcasm is wasted on you, isn't it Claus?


Actually, no. I wrote all my posts more than ten years ago and I have them carefully filed on index cards. Whenever I see a post that needs a response, I go to the catalogue and select the exact response that fits the situation. This one is card number SC23775-CFL.

If you feel you've run out of arguments.
 
Based on that logic, let's not ever convict anyone and send them to jail, because it's possible to convict the wrong person.

Sorry, doesn't wash.

I think we are going to agree more in football.

But it does wash, every Thursday in addition to every other weekend.

If I convict someone unjustly, and they're in jail, I can correct it, albeit after the fact. If I execute someone unjustly, it's kind of difficult to correct...unless their Jesus.


Since the design sucks, I quite disagree. A condemned prisoner should get REASONABLE opportunity for appeals etc, not excessive (granted subjective terms).

And there's the rub. Again, I think we should be willing to err to the excessive side.


Not relevant. This isn't about rehabilitation; it's about the death penalty and the punishment fitting the crime.

So, what do you think about the Cowboy's chances this year? :D
 
Claus - laws very rarely manage to provide 100% clear listed distinctions and definitions, mainly because the world of human interactions and behaviour can not be described in such ways.

Many laws in all countries require the judgment of the legal system to determine whether someone falls under a certain piece of legislation or not. Someone not being able to provide a definitive list of all people to be covered by a law cannot be used as a strong argument against the a law since in many instances such a list is simply not possible.
 

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