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Mammoth found, killed with buckshot

shadron

Philosopher
shadron
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Messages
5,918
(Can't you just hear the creationists?)

Listening to BBC this evening, and they announced that a conference in San Francisco heard a paper about a find of a mammoth and a bison which were peppered by what is assumed to have been an asteroid destroying itself in an air explosion about 35,000 years ago. The bison apparently lived through it; the mammoth didn't. They found what they are assuming to be asteroid "buckshot" embedded in the mammoth's tusks and the bison's skull.

Sounds fishy to me. I think that an air burst with that kind of result would have killed through blast and heat effects before shrapnel would have had a chance to get there. Perhaps it did and the corpse(s) experienced insult after injury before fossilization. Sounds like a once-in-a-lifetime sort of find, anyway.
 
There's the recent finding that an atmospheric detonation of a comet or asteroid could have contributed to the demise of the megafauna...but I can't find anything where pieces of the asteroid were found in mammoth or bison remains.

Could they have misunderstood something and embellished it? There is mention of sediment identification in the articles.

Athon
 
Cool!

Hey, it's 13,000 years old - the Creationidiots will have even less to hang their hats on!
 
Radrook said:
How does creationism fit into this scenario?
Click to expand...

Just a little jest about the dinosaur track finds in Texas with human footprints in side them. (http://paleo.cc/paluxy/paluxy.htm) What if a creationist had found these first? Would we have heard about early man carrying shotguns?

*snort*

Oh, well. Enough of my sense of humor, I suppose.
 
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athon said:
There's the recent finding that an atmospheric detonation of a comet or asteroid could have contributed to the demise of the megafauna...but I can't find anything where pieces of the asteroid were found in mammoth or bison remains.

Could they have misunderstood something and embellished it? There is mention of sediment identification in the articles.

Athon
Click to expand...

See link in #3 above (found link during edit; that's why you may not have seen it.)
 
Ah, cool. Thanks for the story. I think I'll use it on the show this weekend.

:)

Athon
 
I wonder about things like terminal velocity and shock waves.

What kind of speed is the projectile required to be travelling at to embed itself in bone, even without killing the animal?

Bow's shoot arrows at (low end) 200 Feet per Second (136 mph) but their penetration is more dependent on the mass of the arrow (kinetic energy). And a 136 mph wind driving particles at one would probably be a significant issue in itself.

Ballistics tables for rifle bullets indicate effectiveness is seriously compromised at around 1000 feet per second or 681 mph which, once more, is a significant breeze, IMHO.

So, while I'm not an authority on this topic or the facts I cite above, I have serious doubts about the validity of the argument presented.
 
If you look at the Tunguska event it's easy to conceive of an animal being at just the right distance to survive (or be killed but not consumed by heat) and receive these fragments. Most meteoric material falls at terminal velocity sometimes after shattering before hitting the ground. I believe only larger meteorites make it through the atmosphere and impact the ground at speeds > terminal velocity. But the Tunguska event shows clearly that the above ground explosion created a shock wave that blew down trees the same way exploding gases from Mt St Helen's knocked down thousands of trees.

What seems most amazing to me is that these animals were within blasting range of the meteor. Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world.....

From the picture which looks like a meteorite, the analysis of nickel iron which indicates a meteorite, the fact there are two specimens on two continents decreasing the odds of fraud, and, it was presented at a scientific conference, I find the story very credible.


Science is so much funner than woo, isn't it?
 
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Zep said:
Cool!

Hey, it's 13,000 years old - the Creationidiots will have even less to hang their hats on!
Click to expand...

Oh. You mean the young earth creationists who believe that things were created in 24 hour days? Yes, I agree. This type of creationist would probably be miffed. However, the creationists who don't view matters that way won't.
 
Here's a related story from Science News:

Ice Age Ends Smashingly: Did a comet blow up over eastern Canada?
Evidence unearthed at more than two dozen sites across North America suggests that an extraterrestrial object exploded in Earth's atmosphere above Canada about 12,900 years ago, just as the climate was warming at the end of the last ice age. The explosion sparked immense wildfires, devastated North America's ecosystems and prehistoric cultures, and triggered a millennium-long cold spell, scientists say
Click to expand...

Here are some links from the article to related scientific papers. These look good. The blast was a different time but West and Firestone are mentioned as sources.
 
This is great, they are going to re-run the National Geographic program on this guy's work tomorrow.

Explorer: Mammoth Mystery
Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 08P

Scientists have long debated one of the greatest mysteries of science: What caused the sudden mass extinction of mammoths 13,000 years ago? Now, Explorer: Mammoth Mystery gathers a team of investigators who may have found clues to why the mammoths, which reigned over the landscapes of North America for more than 1 million years, suddenly vanished. Could the clues point to the biggest cosmic impact humans have ever witnessed?
Click to expand...

Also airs:
Wednesday, December 12, 11P
Sunday, December 16, 2P

Sigh, I don't get that channel. I wonder if it will be on any PBS channels.
 
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skeptigirl said:
If you look at the Tunguska event it's easy to conceive of an animal being at just the right distance to survive (or be killed but not consumed by heat) and receive these fragments. Most meteoric material falls at terminal velocity sometimes after shattering before hitting the ground. I believe only larger meteorites make it through the atmosphere and impact the ground at speeds > terminal velocity. But the Tunguska event shows clearly that the above ground explosion created a shock wave that blew down trees the same way exploding gases from Mt St Helen's knocked down thousands of trees.

What seems most amazing to me is that these animals were within blasting range of the meteor. Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world.....

From the picture which looks like a meteorite, the analysis of nickel iron which indicates a meteorite, the fact there are two specimens on two continents decreasing the odds of fraud, and, it was presented at a scientific conference, I find the story very credible.


Science is so much funner than woo, isn't it?
Click to expand...

Do you have a link to information you refer to about animals surviving the Tunguska event? I can't find anything even remotely proposing that.
 
shadron said:
Just a little jest about the dinosaur track finds in Texas with human footprints in side them. What if a creationist had found these first? Would we have heard about early man carrying shotguns?
Click to expand...

You forgot that a schism of some little known cult would claim that the shotguns were provided by aliens.
 
buckshot huh - proves my point - the 2nd ammendment has a typo in it - Should read, right to arm bears :p
 
Why would a bullet - or even a meteorite - kill a mammoth, if it was lodged in the tusk?
 
If you read the article, they aren't actually suggesting that either animal was killed by this shower of meteorites, just that one was definitely alive at the time and for a while afterward because of post-injury tissue growth.
 
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