Put in jail for speech. Yes, in the USA.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Evidence?



Linky.

Oh, and another one, but I don't know if you only want US data.



Linky.

Linking to the NEA to show that teachers are not well compensated is like linking to NAMBLA to show that children want sex with adults.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

And there goes an ad hominum (circumstancial). Way not to address the argument.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

Laughable. They work 6 hour days at most schools, with grading and tests, many teachers don't even make 40. And most salaried people work more then a 40-hour week. It hardly balances out. It's an easy job and an easy degree and you get paid appropriately, if not more then they should simply because of public preasure.

Speaking as a husband of a teacher/administrator, I have to say that you're wrong. She and her teachers work at least 40 hours and often much more than 40. My wife's school includes a pre-school and day care so it's all year round, but even with that they are working before and after classes to prepare lessons, projects, attend seminars on new teaching methods, etc.

It's only easy if you don't try and don't work on keeping your material fresh and up to date. For instance, at my daughter's school they spent the summer learning a new writing methodology and continue to work extra hours to integrate it into their lesson plans.

I have a few friends who are teachers as well, and while they put in 40 hours, they admit that most can easily get away with not, and it's certainly not more then 40. Summers are for preparing lessons maybe your first year or two, but most of the material repeats itself, and most jobs you have to do study outside paid time.

If teaching is so rough and the pay is so low, why do so many people choose it as a career?

It is true that some teachers coast along and put in as little work as possible, but the teachers you really want to have teaching your children put in the extra effort.

A difficult job and career enjoyment are not mutually exclusive. And I think you'll find that there aren't enough people chosing a career in education. It is increasingly difficult to find good teachers that are well motivated. That may be why we have more teachers mailing it in.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

Double post.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

And there goes an ad hominum (circumstancial). Way not to address the argument.

Are you denying that the NEA has an interest in presenting teachers as under compensated?

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

It is irrelevant to the argument. It doesn't particularly MATTER they have an interest unless their argument doesn't rely on facts. If you think their study is wrong, then question the actual study, not the producer.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

It is irrelevant to the argument. It doesn't particularly MATTER they have an interest unless their argument doesn't rely on facts. If you think their study is wrong, then question the actual study, not the producer.

Just so you remember to trust any study that is presented that does not favor your view no matter who presented it.

Feeling ?

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

.. that . .what. I' msaying question the study and you're going blindly trust it.

 

[CaptainManacles]

Evidence?

Get a job, go live in the real world for awhile. Anecdotal evidence might not be great, but it beats the hell out of some random webpage with irrelevent information.

Linky.

Oh, and another one, but I don't know if you only want US data.



Linky.

if you can't see the BS in those links then I don't think you're trying very hard to be objective about this issue.

 

[CaptainManacles]

Actually, unless employment laws have changed (possible) since I last had occasion to check most jobs cannot require you to take and pay for classes after you have been hired (if required, they must pay).

I don't think that was ever the law. Maybe they can't say "take this class or your fired" but they can say "you better have skill A, B, and C" or you're fired. Which can mean taking a class, buying a book, practicing the skills at home. Acting like furthering your skills is the sole domain of educators is insane.

And, just as a side note, enjoying your job is not something that should have any influence on your income from it - in either direction.

Why not?

And, as a second side note, each day I arrive at school at 6:30 (+/-10 min.) at which time I have to park fairly far from the office door because the Teachers lot is already almost full. Though school doesn't start until 7:20 for students our official start time is 7:10 - but we are ready to go by ca. 6:40-6:50 (at least in my hallway). Other than 25 minutes for lunch (and don't get me started on our so-called planning time) we are teaching until 1:50. As the students leave, we are headed to near daily meetings (or parent conferences after which we head to meetings. The meetings are supposed to end at 2:40 and so far this year, 3 of them have - usually though they end from 3-3:20. They are educational in nature ("college" meetings, department meetings, Area of Concern meetings, subject meetings (3 a week in my case), special meetings). Most of my grading is done at home, or during lunch (the simpler stuff). Compared to some others, my day is light - when I leave each day there is still half a parking lot of teacher tag cars.

Welcome to the world of the profesional worker. Most people I know who are profesionals with degrees work far beyond a 40 hour week, and that's just time spent at the office, they probably spend a similar amount of time at home furthering skills and preparing for the next work day, besides being expected to continue their education, and attend charity functions and put in community service hours.

 

[Rob Lister]

I don't think that was ever the law.

you're correct. In fact, there's even a section on schedule A 1040 to account for such expenses.

 

[CaptainManacles]

It is irrelevant to the argument. It doesn't particularly MATTER they have an interest unless their argument doesn't rely on facts. If you think their study is wrong, then question the actual study, not the producer.

The problem is that they don't present an arguement. They present claimed facts with no basis, which you can't do unless you are a trustworthy unbiased primary source, which they aren't.

 

[gnome]

They present facts that aren't generally well known, that IF TRUE make the case very well. It points out demands on teacher's time that people that only look at the classroom hours might not have considered. If you look at the excerpts posted, are there facts in there that you think may be untrue? Drilling down into those facts and disputing them would be far more persuasive than a general attack on the credibility of the NEA.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

They present facts that aren't generally well known, that IF TRUE make the case very well. It points out demands on teacher's time that people that only look at the classroom hours might not have considered. If you look at the excerpts posted, are there facts in there that you think may be untrue? Drilling down into those facts and disputing them would be far more persuasive than a general attack on the credibility of the NEA.

Here is some real data:

Real salaries and compensation

Keep in mind that the median income per household is about $46,000.

Jennifer Slonac Teacher $69,867, $30,593 Swanson Elementary

Julie L Tushaus-Hardie Teacher $69,867, $30,593 Swanson Elementary

Carol Wichter Teacher $69,867, $59,666 Swanson Elementary

Salaries and compensation for elementary school teachers in this district is from $100,000 to $130,000 per year in a state where the median income is $46,000.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Here is some real data:

Real salaries and compensation

Keep in mind that the median income per household is about $46,000.



Salaries and compensation for elementary school teachers in this district is from $100,000 to $130,000 per year in a state where the median income is $46,000.

Oh, a whole 3 teachers . Some districts are richer than others.

A more accurate (i.e. not completely irrelevant) comparison would be to take the median income of all the teachers in the state and then compare that to the median income of all residents in the state.

ETA:

Andelee R Espinosa Teacher $25,019 $8,228 Brookfield Central High Elmbrook Sch Dist Waukesha
Karen Brent Teacher $25,019 $4,700 Swanson Elementary Elmbrook Sch Dist Waukesha
Cathy A Weis Teacher $24,700 $4,638 Burleigh Elementary Elmbrook Sch Dist Waukesha

Look at that, well below the median income.

Oh look, I can misrepresent data too.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Just what i needed, another libertarian who seems to have a hangup somewhere in reality.sys...

I don't think that was ever the law. Maybe they can't say "take this class or your fired" but they can say "you better have skill A, B, and C" or you're fired. Which can mean taking a class, buying a book, practicing the skills at home. Acting like furthering your skills is the sole domain of educators is insane.

Yes they can and do that. Somehow though, most people learn better when they have someone who knows their material.. funny.

The problem is that they don't present an arguement. They present claimed facts with no basis, which you can't do unless you are a trustworthy unbiased primary source, which they aren't

And this goes back to my statement: that is STILL an adhom attack. Although this MIGHT be a poisoning the well. While they didn't post their basis, you are still not attacking the facts, but the argurer.

Keep in mind that the median income per household is about $46,000.

I could spit fire. You know, Jerome. Being dishonest is very bad.

State Median Income Drops

Waukesha County's poverty rate was the fifth-lowest nationwide among counties with populations of 250,000 or more at 3.7%, up from 3.5% in 2004, while median household income was $67,222, up from $64,353. In the city of Waukesha, the poverty rate was 6.5%, while median household income was $52,599. The city of Waukesha was not included in the 2004 data.

Ahem. USO DA!

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Get a job, go live in the real world for awhile. Anecdotal evidence might not be great, but it beats the hell out of some random webpage with irrelevent information.



if you can't see the BS in those links then I don't think you're trying very hard to be objective about this issue.

Your evidence, it overwhelms me. For a second I thought we were supposed to be promoting critical thinking and skepticism here.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

To further this:
Source: http://projects.washingtonpost.com/elections/keyraces/census/wi/

Median Household Income: $43,791 (2006)

And before I foudn out something:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...n+teacher+income+salary+Wisconsin&btnG=Search

Note the first result:

Total Wisconsin Teacher Compensation Remains Above National Norm

The average salary for a Wisconsin teacher was $41056 in 2002, ... The median salaries of ten occupations rated most similar were then compared to median ...

 

[CaptainManacles]

Your evidence, it overwhelms me. For a second I thought we were supposed to be promoting critical thinking and skepticism here.

I don't think any evidence is going to convince you, so I'm not going to waste my time.

 

[JoeEllison]

I remember my high school track and cross country coach telling us that he made an extra $30 a week for coaching, which, based on the amount of time he invested coaching, came out to about $1.50 an hour. That's on top of the unpaid hours grading papers and preparing lessons and such. No study hall at my school, either, which meant that they had to do all of their work on their own time.

Anyone who claims that teachers are overpaid is an effing moron.