No wonder they love us!

[Lonewulf]

Something that politically charged and inflammatory needs more than a you-tube video to back it up. You've heard the saying about extraordinary claims and extraordinary evidence, haven't you?

So you're claiming the video was faked, right?

 

[dann]

This is a really strange conflict, in that it is not clear who the enemy really is. These soldiers aren't selected because of their high moral standards or their high intelligence; they're in Iraq because they signed a contract. The army takes anybody. When the leaders don't know what's going on, and the soldiers are trained to kill or maim anyone who gets in the way (or even just keep the peace), bad stuff happens.

Reminds me of the Stanford Prison Experiment.

Yes, that is what the leaders trained them to do! It makes you wonder if it is not also the purpose of the whole thing and not some kind of misunderstanding ...

 

[dann]

No, let's have a game of "What could possibly be worse than that?" to make our destruction of somebody's livelihood seem harmless in comparison.

In that region of the world, losing the car is a prettyy mild punishment. Who are the "they" that will hate us for that? The Islamists angered because their hands weren't cut off as demanded by sharia? It seems as if the men weren't even arrested. There's videos of the Taliban cutting off the hands of thieves and parading them around a soccer stadium, the same happens in saudi Arabia and Iran (maybe without the parading). Hard to see those people getting upset about a car being crushed, unless what they're really upset about is being judged by infidels.

So we are having that game, and you are very good at it!

 

[dann]

The Danes still have troops in Iraq?

I think that they are on their way out right now, being redeployed to Afghanistan.

 

[Lonewulf]

In that region of the world, losing the car is a prettyy mild punishment. Who are the "they" that will hate us for that? The Islamists angered because their hands weren't cut off as demanded by sharia? It seems as if the men weren't even arrested. There's videos of the Taliban cutting off the hands of thieves and parading them around a soccer stadium, the same happens in saudi Arabia and Iran (maybe without the parading). Hard to see those people getting upset about a car being crushed, unless what they're really upset about is being judged by infidels.

Remember: As long as someone else would do worse, you can do whatever you want.

Hell, why bother developing moral philosophies? This one is great.

I mean, I could torture you, but the last guy would have tortured AND raped you even worse than me. Therefore, it's okay! YAY!

 

[UserGoogol]

Something that politically charged and inflammatory needs more than a you-tube video to back it up. You've heard the saying about extraordinary claims and extraordinary evidence, haven't you?

I don't really see how this is an extraordinary claim. People with power abuse their power, that's just what people do. And we're not talking about some sort of elaborate conspiracy, we're just talking about some guys running over a car. That's not a very big claim. There's something like a hundred thousand US troops in Iraq, and presumably quite a few of them have access to tanks. If none of those people were running over people's cars with their tanks that would be an extraordinary claim.

 

[Oliver]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJC1unnuwds&eurl=http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/

Quite frankly - that example of yours would be the mildest form
of being upset about the things that are going on without the
American people ever hearing about it in their patriotic main-
stream-media. Hats off to PBS to be a critical source, even
if they also refuse to show disturbing footage.

 

[Halcyon Dayz]

As a rule troops trained for warfare are not so good at peace-keeping/policing.
Those require a different skill set.

 

[boloboffin]

This is why we developed a judicial system. There was no due process here.

 

[Lonewulf]

As a rule troops trained for warfare are not so good at peace-keeping/policing.
Those require a different skill set.

Pretty much, yeah.

That's why we developed SWAT and police and stopped using the military for paramilitary policing purposes. We didn't quite like what happened at Kent State.

 

[WildCat]

Remember: As long as someone else would do worse, you can do whatever you want.

Hell, why bother developing moral philosophies? This one is great.

I mean, I could torture you, but the last guy would have tortured AND raped you even worse than me. Therefore, it's okay! YAY!

Destroying or confiscating the tools used to commit a crime is hardly tantamount to torture or rape, and is in fact SOP in the United States and I suspect many other western nations.

In this case, it is not practical for the soldiers to tow the car and sell it at auction later, nor are they equiped to arrest and jail thieves. And the thieves still have their lives, limbs, and freeedom intact and their car will not be used to commit any more crimes.

This isn't about doing marginally better than local custom, it's better by leaps and bounds.

 

[WildCat]

Oh noes! It seems that in England the Hinckley and Bosworth Borough Council can confiscate a stereo and levy a fine if it's played too loud:

Stephen Brian Edwards of Hinckley was charged with not complying with five noise abatement orders that were issued to him in November 1999. Neighbors had complained that Edwards was playing his stereo too loudly late at night and would not turn it down.
The borough, using its powers under the noise abatement law, confiscated Edwards' equipment and fined him GBP 850. The Council's future policy will be to charge an owner GBP 150 for return of equipment after confiscation. Robert Parkinson is the Council's senior environmental health officer, and wants residents to know that the Council will not hesitate to enforce the noise abatement laws in order to send the message out that excessive neighborhood noise will not be tolerated.

No wonder the English hate the English!

Even New Zealand does this:

The 18 year-old youth, identified only by his online handle “Akill” was arrested and several of his computers were confiscated

But if the same is done in Iraq it is tantamount to torture and rape, and a reason for them to hate us...

 

[WildCat]

Uh-oh Lonewulf, it appears that in your own country authorities confiscated a man's wheelchair after he was caught speeding in it!

He was stopped doing twice the speed limit. His vehicle was confiscated and he was slapped with a £300 fine.

But we must do better than that in Iraq!

 

[Lonewulf]

Uh-oh Lonewulf, it appears that in your own country authorities confiscated a man's wheelchair after he was caught speeding in it!

But we must do better than that in Iraq!

"My own country"?

I'm a U.S. Citizen, smartass. Do some research and read my posts before you move your fingers and make an ass out of you and... well... you.

By the way, great article. It's obviously very objective.

and he was slapped with a £300 fine, or roughly nine billion US dollars.

Hey, and it's entirely accurate and truthful! Well, I suppose, I'm supposed to assume that the only thing it got right was the confiscation thing, but I have this thing about untrustworthy sources; once they start lying (whether for the sake of humor or not), I find it hard to take them seriously.

Now, here's my question: Could these people have contested the confiscation of their wheelchair in a court of law, or not?

 

[Gurdur]

Kudos to WildCat, who said it all best.

I kinda loved this bit from the cited article, though:

Doing 40 in a 20 zone, he was actually going twice the speed limit, which we'd translate into kilometers-per-hour for you, were it not for the fact that our collective head would explode.

Eichmann's "vehicle" was confiscated by the cops (kinda harsh, right?), and he was slapped with a £300 fine, or roughly nine billion US dollars.

Funny.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJC1unnuwds&eurl=http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/

Cool!

 

[Mycroft]

So you're claiming the video was faked, right?

No, I do not make any such claim. The video might be perfectly authentic, or it might be taken out of context.

No, my claim is that one minute and twenty seconds of video placed on you-tube by a propagandist isn't enough to make any kind of meaningful judgment.

For example, what is this wood they were stealing? Was it worthless scrap and broken trash meant to become firewood? Or was it valuable lumber being used in a construction project? I don't know the answer and the video provides no clues, but knowing that would certainly alter the context.

If the "wood" were just trash and scrap then it's hard to call what these men were doing "looting" and losing a car over it seems unbelievably harsh. On the other hand if they were stealing materials from a construction site then their actions could be depriving a family of their shelter and a lot of workmen their livelihoods. In that context the action seems a lot less harsh, particularly in the larger context of stopping looting in a war zone, which in other places means shooting people.

 

[Mycroft]

I don't really see how this is an extraordinary claim. People with power abuse their power, that's just what people do.

So do you always abuse power when you have the opportunity?

I personally disagree with your premise. Some people do abuse power, certainly, but it's not "just what people do." Not even close.

 

[Mycroft]

But we must do better than that in Iraq!

Yeah, let's see if we can find an Iraqi engineer who will mod his wheelchair to do 80 mph!

 

[daredelvis]

No, I do not make any such claim. The video might be perfectly authentic, or it might be taken out of context.

No, my claim is that one minute and twenty seconds of video placed on you-tube by a propagandist isn't enough to make any kind of meaningful judgment.

For example, what is this wood they were stealing? Was it worthless scrap and broken trash meant to become firewood? Or was it valuable lumber being used in a construction project? I don't know the answer and the video provides no clues, but knowing that would certainly alter the context.

If the "wood" were just trash and scrap then it's hard to call what these men were doing "looting" and losing a car over it seems unbelievably harsh. On the other hand if they were stealing materials from a construction site then their actions could be depriving a family of their shelter and a lot of workmen their livelihoods. In that context the action seems a lot less harsh, particularly in the larger context of stopping looting in a war zone, which in other places means shooting people.

Whatever you need to tell yourself to justify those actions. Go right ahead.

Daredelvis